Karaoke Forums

I inadvertently hijacked a thread on a rant so now that I am started, I may as well finish and crawl back in my hole.
In the 90's when I started in this industry, there was Pioneer and DK, soon after came Pocket, Maestro and Sound Choice, and yes I know Pocket already had music -1. Everyone paid rights for the songs and compulsory mechanical licenses. Industry decides, wait it's not a phonorecord type recording , it's a type of movie....Music industry lawsuits, bootleg manufacturers who pay nothing get involved. Fast forward 10 years and I don't think (personal opinion) half the manufacturers knew who and what they were required to pay because the music industry lawyers were telling everyone different things depending on what label they were dealing with. Digital downloads of regular music become huge, it will kill the record industry and sales tumble. After screwing around for about another 10 years the music industry is finally figuring out Digital, shutting down illegal share sites and starting to make money on digital music partially due to lower overhead. However they are still pissing on the Karaoke Industry because it is not big enough to dedicate the manpower (lawyers) to agree on how to handle it.
CD's are dead and will probably halt production in 5 to 10 years, just like floppy disks.
Karaoke manufacturers are sued or blocked from delivering product the only way people are currently using it (digital)
It goes on and on and on.
Who is really to blame? Companies like Sound Choice who can't sell enough product to be viable because of pirates, and they can't deliver digitally without being sued by someone (among other reasons) ? (I don't think so)
Lawyers like Harrington who end up filing suits against anyone running on computer because it's difficult to prove up front what was purchased and what wasn't ? (Again , no because he is helping the survival of SC and even today the courts can't figure out exactly where the law falls, just look at the suit results from different states and jurisdictions)
Pirates who pay for nothing and make a profit?
The people who initially bought product, then resold, copied it for profit?
The music industry who has confused the industry with financial demands and ever changing restrictions?
The KJ who buys product from manufacturers who paid no rights. (I knew it was illegal when it only said copy write __ and all rights reserved, and was stamped, and
When the industry paid compulsory mech licenses etc I was getting 20-40 disks a month, now I might get 2-3.
Bars are afraid to book because they cant figure out what is and is not covered by what they pay ascap, sesac, bmi, the mob, their beer distributor, insurance company and garbage man and they are supposed to know I own everything.
Most of Europe has sorted it out and their manufacturers appear to be making money and product again
I'm getting sick of being told to jump through hoops, put this in , take this out, only use this and so on.
So, who is really to blame?

If you already have it on US disc before the rule change then you may play it. And the GEM series is considered grandfathered in, meaning they are legal in the US. Don't let Joe tell you otherwise because he don't know squat. The rules mean you can no longer get and use overseas product and that includes Canadian.

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The Line Array Experiment is over. Nothing to see here. Move along.

I understand that, but WHY can't I play it. If I buy from a european site. The rights holders and Artists are paid period. The only reason I can't use it here is someone wants a piece of profit here. It is the same crap the US drug industry is pulling. I have diabetes , I am on Januvia. My blue cross doesn't want to pay for it. They suggest I get it overseas, mexico, or canada where it is $3.00 a pill. Instead I have to get it from a US pharmacy where it is 10.00 a pill. It's made here and the only country that charges that much is the US. My wife is a veterinarian and dispenses meds. I can't ship "illegal" drugs here.

Somewhere in the chain the karaoke system is broken. Want proof ? Why can Digitrax make a deal for digital releases and Sound Choice is denied it without additional hoops? My sing it now/top/pop Hits have been digital for 10 years.

The bar stills pays the rights holder through SESAC etc, I paid the rights holder through the european entities What's the problem? Oh yeah, the U.S entity wanted MORE MONEY. I would love to know how many of these U.S. record companies are actually U.S. companies and how many are actually offshore based to avoid taxes.
Oh, and the drug companies tell us the drug is 10.00 in the U.S. because that is how they fund new research and other countries don't allow them to pass those costs on to their people.

Welcome to the U.S.A. where everything is just one pen stroke away from a law suit, where everyone thinks that they elect those in congress and the white house but in all actuality it is big business that does that. The teamsters, the Unions, etc.

The whole Karaoke industry will come crashing down when all the song writers, producers, singers and owners say enough is enough and no one can use their music. END OF STORY.
When they figure out that all they have to do is take the original music and leave the lead vocals out and then just add the text, they will have a new market, a better product than any of today's manu's can make, and will have the market cornered.

If they decide not to make Karaoke then the industry is dead and no one will get new music.
But I'm sure that SC will still try and sue those using their stuff without authorization and from the looks of it now will try and sue those using stuff that isn't even theirs, by waking up the sleeping giants of defunct labels.

SC really started a load of it with their lawsuits and I believe that they caused so much disturbance in the industry that it got CB shut down. This of course is only my opinion, but CB was going strong until SC went to town and drug CB into the mix.

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I like everyone when I first meet them. If you don't like me that's not my problem it's YOURS!
A stranger is a friend you haven't met yet

This is one of the reasons I'm retiring after Oct of this year LW, you can't tell the good guys from the bad guys. The real blame seems to rest with our old friend GREED. The manus say the pirates are bad and greedy, some hosts think the manus are being greedy, they don't realize by all this fighting, they are killing what they say they are trying to preserve. I don't understand why the long term veteran certified hosts that have huge investments in their business are siding with the manus. Since the current solutions to the pirate problem, the legal process plus the selling of their current product seems to be the only answer. It doesn't benefit in the least this particular type of veteran host. It does help the former pirate and newbie that want to start out with a pretty good library and reduces their chances of being sued. It reduces the chance, it does not eliminate it totally, that is something all hosts need to consider. We are giving up the ability to control our own business's and being forced to have two manus become our only source of material. Even to the point of eliminating foreign competition, which seems to fly in the face of the principle of free trade. I was once told I was being paranoid when I said the manus are trying to corner the music supply side of the industry. They have told us by this summit that is exactly what they want to do. To create a two manu cartel and force all hosts to have to buy from them, or face possible legal action. In the end we all share in the blame, all of us that work in the industry for not coming together, and trying to work out some kind of long term comprehensive plan.

Ed,

"I understand that, but WHY can't I play it. If I buy from a european site."

Because the licencing for overseas was changedin 2011. Clear exclusion of the USA and Canada from "worldwide licencing" was made.

Overseas licencing is compulsory(the legal assumption is that all songs are allowed on karaoke ), here in the USA the opposite is true. Royalties are set at a much lower fee schedule overseas and the publishers want to be paid.

It is my opinion that we will see more overseas tracks being resold by companies like DT and ASK after they have secured the additional licencing, however the cost MAY rise and the number of tracks will be much smaller than we have been used to seeing.

U.S was excluded because they wouldn't play ball. I know the legal why. But IT'S THE SAME F****N RECORD COMPANIES not playing ball internationally. We are not talking GM and VW. We are talking seperate branches of Sony and other record companies.It is total legal crap and only hurts a small industry from growing. The UK addressed karaoke with compulsory laws and the U.S. said not good enough but won't address the industry as a whole. A company making music shouldn't spend 95% of its overhead on lawyers and 5% on the music just so they can fight other lawyers. (no offense to anyone in the law related industry and yes I made those numbers up.. but you get the point)

I may be in the minority of commentators on this question in the karaoke industry, but I think the recent Supreme Court decision in the Kirtsaeng case makes it quite clear that regardless of geographic licensing restrictions, if you purchase a lawfully made UK-made physical disc--in other words, a disc made with proper licensing under UK law for sale in the UK--then that purchase qualifies for purposes of the First Sale Doctrine, and no music publisher could prevent you from using that disc, assuming that the public performance royalties were paid.

Note that I did not say that you could make a copy and play from that. Note also that I did not say anything about downloads; the law is unsettled on that point.

Although I am a lawyer, I am not YOUR lawyer. The above is information, not advice. You should consult with a lawyer of your choosing to determine the best course of action for your specific situation.

Thank you for an honest reply.. you never disappoint me. I know your answer was an opinion but I am seeing one hand selling it, the other saying not ours but we will sue you for it when it is the same entity. And thanks again, I will look up that case just for the information.

Rights are still paid by the bar on the second part.

I would like to add a sincere Thank You to Mr Harrington. Any time I have asked him a direct question I have always felt I have been given an honest legal answer or honest opinion and an indication of which it was. I have a lot of respect for him even though I have little respect for the corp. law industry as a whole. My sister in law was a corp Atty. until she gave up her license in disgust. She said she usually felt that by the time a case was heard it was over protecting company A's buggy whip from Company B's buggy whip even though neither had sold buggy whips in 75 years.

Harrington,
So in your opinion, based upon the information given "first sale doctrine" should cover a KJ, IF they did not media shift and played from discs ?

?????

Dowhat,

Sorry bad edit using cell phone. It is corrected now.

this makes all the sense in the world to me. I can't prove it, but reading the law and seeing every other word be "resale", it seems that the law was enacted not to stop sales from the UK, but to stop US based companies from going to the UK to circumvent licensing here and send it all back in the US. not picking on them in this post, but an example like SC, everything was sent to the UK, Licensed in the UK, pressed in the UK, and shipped back here to sell thereby avoiding the US higher cost and opened up the possibility of putting out songs that would not be licensed easily here.
in the end, the rights holders get the money that is good enough for them via PRS For Music (which is why they signed up with them) and i get to use a legally produced with all rights acquired karaoke track. no body gets shafted, shorted, unpaid, or in any way screwed.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

I think that's about the way I'm looking at it, Paradigm. Sony or whoever and the artist got paid. period. I paid money, the manufacturer got paid, the rights holders get paid. since there is very little direct law what if I import an Opel from Australia. Am I supposed to pay an extra licensing fee to GM here in the US? I would pay an import tariff, emissions etc for us import, but none of that goes to GM because they already got paid.

As the law reads imports are not allowed (the exception does allow for single discs for personal use however). I do find it absurd that I can legally purchase A copy of a UK disc but the publishers say I can not legally play it here. Still trying to figure out how this plays into customers bringing discs.

We will do whatever we need to do in order to insure we will not be named in another lawsuit. I am not willing however to go back to being disc based in order to keep less than 2 dozen songs in our libraries. I will cut my losses on those tracks and buy from US companies that have proper licencing.

Remember, in florida, you must pay your meter if you tie an elephant to it and A special law prohibits unmarried women from parachuting on Sunday or she shall risk arrest, fine, and/or jailing.It is illegal to sing in a public place while attired in a swimsuit. When having sex, only the missionary position is legal. It is considered an offense to shower naked. Men may not be seen publicly in any kind of strapless gown. You may not kiss your wife’s breasts.

Sometimes in life you have to take a chance and assume judges are not as dumb as the laws they are upholding.

Good post Ed G. Point taken I may be just a tad over cautious. Thank you I needed that laugh and to lighten up a bit on this subject

Don't forget, in NJ, it is illegal to wear a bullet-proof vest while committing a murder, and, you may not slurp your soup. I forgot now... Which state is it, where it is illegal to have sex with a porcupine?

in AZ if you commit a crime it automatically becomes a felony if the mask you wear is red.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Just wondering if I took a trip to the UK and purchased all the Karaoke discs I could get my hands on would customs take them when I get back?

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I like everyone when I first meet them. If you don't like me that's not my problem it's YOURS!
A stranger is a friend you haven't met yet