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My rotation is run the same way as Cue's. I found that new insertions within the rotation not only encourages bar-hoppers who don't spend, but in general tics off the person who ends up behind the new insert.

Also, buy adding on to the end, those in the rotation always know who they follow, eliminating the constant "when am I up?" question.

The only person who follows the new singers is the number 1 position. However, being first means they started earliest, and will always sing at least as often as the next singers, if not more, so no complaints.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

It has been argued that the 'amusement line' method would be the absolutely fairest. You get up to sing, get done, get back in line - no matter how long it has grown since you sang - there is no set point, you don't put in a slip when you are done, you may wait even longer as others are putting in slips. No one can put in more than one slip and duets DO count as both persons turn. No markers, no placing the new singer before current singer, etc.

I've never been a fan of this - but technically it would be a fair way as well as long as it was consistent.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

But the Amusement Park Ride analogy doesn't work either. You wait on line for the Roller Coaster. You are at the front of the line now for the next Coaster Car:
A. The Coaster Car arrives and you get on. But 20 other people get on at the same time with you.
B. The Coaster Car arrives, and you want to be in the front seat. Someone runs up ahead of you and grabs the seat. You can get on the ride, but not that seat... unless you pass your turn on that Coaster Car, and wait for the next Coaster Car to arrive.
C. Someone comes in with a V.I.P. Pass that enables them to cut the line in front of you.

No rotation method is going to diminish this question! I have the next 3 people listed on the screen and they see their spot coming up and STILL ask when.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Don't use a multi car ride in the analogy, use a single car ride - Like the Pirates of the Caribbean - only 2 max can go per car. I'm just saying, once in line, you ride. If you want to ride again, you get back in line. Not where you are actually seated & in all actuality, most places if you want the front car, you continue to wait in line as most places have lines at each car.

But then the express lines. You bypass everyone to get near the front. Guess that could interpreted as a bribe in karaoke.

Again, I don't care for this method either.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Many singers think the only fair rotation is the one where they sing next.
Many KJs think the fairest rotation is the one that gets them laid (or at least a chance at getting laid).

In reality the fairest rotation is the one where nobody waits any longer to sing than anyone else waiting to sing.
I accomplish this with a dynamic rotation where the "marker" is the current singer. Every singer begins a new rotation.
Example:
Alonzo is singing Elton John's Daniel when Daniel submits a slip for Lonnie Gordon's It's Happening All Over Again; Daniel will be last in the rotation right before Alonzo sings Danny Boy.

If you don't think your singers are paying attention to the rotation and keeping track of when they should be singing next, you are fooling yourself. Try to remember when you first became frustrated with the thoughtlessness of the typical KJ and decided you would become a KJ to rectify the injustice. If you are doing anything less than being fair, you are the guy that made you want to be better than the guy that sucked. Which means you...

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KNOW THYSELF

Agreed. The clock starts ticking for a new singer the moment they put in their first slip.

By the sounds of things, you don't give new singers any priority. I wonder why I do. Now that I think about it, it doesn't seem fair. What am I accomplishing by interjecting a new singer into the rotation soon after they put their slip in.

1) It certainly isn't fair to the singers that have been there since the beginning.

2) I know of a lot of singers who pop in for "a beer and a song" and run off to the next place.

3) Often times, the new singers aren't ready to sing anyways.

4) One of the primary objectives in the bar business (and it spills over to karaoke) is to KEEP people there as long as possible. If you give them what they want so early after they arrive, I speculate that they are then more likely to leave earlier.

I'm starting to rethink the new singer priority. If anything, it shows favoritism and may end up alienating those who get there the earliest.



Your doggone right about that. Not all the singers, but the ones who matter know when they are suppose to be up next. They've used the restroom, refilled their drink, maybe smoked a last cigarette - anticipating their turn in the rotation.

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I'm not a cheerleader, but I paid for my pom poms with my own money!

I consider this my highest priority - attract people, keep them there. Everything else is secondary. If I can do this, the bar will make money and they will want to keep me there. Win-Win.

-Chris

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-Chris

Look at my signature.......I feel the same way too.

The only problem I would have with the, "insert new singer just above who is currently singing" is singers can't tell who they are singing after from one rotation to the next. It was Joe, Sue, Bill. Paul comes in while Bill is singing and now it's Joe, Sue, Paul, Bill. Bill goes to get up as Sue finishes but you call Paul instead. Otherwise, I like it. I definitely never saw a reason to offer priority to new singers. It was luck of the draw if they came in with 10 singers to go or two. They could never bank on two...

It's a different philosophy.

I believe in getting that new singer "up for a taste" quickly, to hook them and keep them wanting more. If they come in and have to wait an hour plus for their first song, they may just say screw it and leave.

And remember, it only happens once when they first arrive, and it happens to everybody as everyone is "new" once a night! Is it more or less fair? No, because everyone gets the same treatment. It's just a different style.

As somebody stated earlier, the important thing is consistency.

Objective #1 ATTRACT people (women should be a priority)

Objective #2 (which cannot be effectively accomplished unless #1 is accomplished): KEEP them there.

Objective #3 Increase "per customer" spending by getting them to buy more than they might have planned - like food, shots, whatever.

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I'm not a cheerleader, but I paid for my pom poms with my own money!

Objective 3 - like buying shots for those women in order to:
Object ive 1. Attract them, and
Objective 2. Keep them there.

WOW... It's a never ending circle.



Note: Edited because the quotes were off.

Yup, you're right- ya can't fight dumb..

Please change "eliminating" to "lessening somewhat".

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Even using a scroller doesn't diminish the frequency of that question.

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The Line Array Experiment is over. Nothing to see here. Move along.

Objective 3 - like buying shots for those women in order to:
Object ive 1. Attract them, and
Objective 2. Keep them there.

WOW... It's a never ending circle.[/quote]


If you worry too much about "Buying shots for women" before you put the sign up, open your doors, do advertising, hire a good karaoke guy, hire hot bartenders, etc - you are then "Putting the cart in front of the horse".

This is why I emphasized "Attract People" as being your first objective. Nothing that you do inside the bar will matter if you don't have the people.

But, you are right - it is a cycle. But, from a management standpoint, it then becomes a control issue as you continuously monitor your plan and evaluate it against the intended results.

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I'm not a cheerleader, but I paid for my pom poms with my own money!

the fairest rotation is one where everyone get's treated the same, no matter how you implement it.

in that vain, there are a lot of comments that have already been said, the key one in my opinion is being consistent.

I liked the concept of the way my software handled a rotation in theory.

The way it was set up you could give new singers priority, BUT you could also set it that if a singer has been waiting for a set amount of time *I used 20 minutes* then new singers would get placed AFTER those singers.

so as an example. for my original rotation I have.

1. James
2. Mikki
3. Randy
4. Darlene
5. Kathy
6. Paul
7. Amanda

so my show is going along, and I get a new singer "shortty". Let's assume that we are on singer #5, and that James and Mikki have been waiting more than twenty minutes. So the new singer would be inserted at postition three and the new rotation becomes

1. James
2. Mikki
3. Shortty
4. Randy
5. Darlene
6. Kathy
7. Paul
8. Amanda

This way new singers will get up more quickly for there first song, but the longer you stay the more you sing.

The problem is when you add songs or people manually instead of using the kiosk. it screws up the rotation logic and there was always one person in my show who absolutely REFUSED to use the kiosk..

And there is another example of the point I have been trying to make.

You just pushed Randy & Darlene down. Let's assume they have been there all night.

If you leave Shorty where he is and don't move him to the bottom of the rotation at the end of the current round, that is not fair to Randy & Darlene. If you are going to give a new singer priority, there's nothing wrong with that. But for every time thereafter that Shorty singes ahead of Randy & Darlene, it is not fair to them.

Furthermore, as you insert more new singers ahead of them, they get pushed down even further. At the end of the night, your rotation might look like this:


1. James
2. Mikki
3. John
4. Shortty
5. June
6. Jerry
7. Juan
8. Randy
9. Joe
10. Jack
11. Darlene
12. Kathy
13. Paul
14. Amanda

Do you see where Randy & Darlene ended up at the end of the night? Is that fair to them? In particular, if you don't have enough time to do an entire spin through the rotation, the singers who have been present all night should absolutely be the ones who get priority to sing in the final (partial) round. And if your rotation was done fairly, they will. This means the top of your rotation should look the exact same at the end of the night as it did the beginning of the night, assuming all of those singers are still present.

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I'm not a cheerleader, but I paid for my pom poms with my own money!

You missed the point, as new singers get added, the 'older' singers wait longer, thereby allowing them to fall under the '20 minute' rule.

When a person sings a song, the 'wait time' resets and starts counting off the time waited to sing their next song.

Which means that as the rotation grows, the 'insertion point' becomes longer and longer.


This would mean at most, randy and darlene would only get bumped one or two positions.


perhaps I should extend the example.

In the third rotation I have four new singers. James, Mikki, Darlene Randy have been waiting for 20 minutes, which means Shortty is the one who get's pushed down the rotation not the other two singers.

in the fouth rotation, assuming the addition of one new singer, the person who would get pushed down the rotation is Kathy, and in the next rotation it would be Paul, and the next would be Amanda. Until finally it comes to James who has been singing the longest.

On average when this system works properly I have found that for a 4 hour karaoke night in my shows:
the first rotation singers sing 3-4 songs total in a night
the new people in the second rotation sing an average of 2-3
the new people in the third rotation sing 1-2 songs total for the night
anyone after the fourth rotation gets to sing one song on average.

How is this penalizing the people who show up on time and stay all night?

for further clairification, if the show were longer here is exactly how my rotation would look at the end of the night, by order


1. James
2. Mikki
3. Randy
4. Darlene
5. Kathy
6. Paul
7. Amanda
8. Shortty *new singer #1*
9. New Singer #2
10. New Singer #3
11. New Singer #4

and so on.

the disadvantage to the system is whom you go up after is consistently changing, so you have to keep on top of the people and let them know when they will be up, but it does strike a balance between rewarding the people who stay the longest and getting new singers up as quickly as possible.