Karaoke Forums

I got to arguing over what is a fair rotation or not with someone on facebook.

Here is how I do rotation:
I put in my name as a marker(does not mean I sing every rotation)
I then allow my singers to enter their songs into the kiosk.
These names fall after my name until I start the show. AT the end of my first song I drop down to the bottom of the list. Any new singers gets placed in front of me.

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The Line Array Experiment is over. Nothing to see here. Move along.

Sounds fair to me. When I do a show (as rare as that may be), I do the same thing. I start off each new rotation. Depending on how many people I have in the rotation, determines whether I choose to remain in the rotation or not. Usually, once I have 6 or 7 people waiting to sing, I will drop out of the rotation. My rotation does not end until the last person who submitted a request slip for the current rotation has sung. If a new singer happens to walk in and hand up a song request slip before the last person in the current rotation has left the stage, then he/she gets to sing immediately. If a new singer hands up a song slip after I have started the new rotation, then he/she is the last singer in that rotation (unless someone else comes up with a song request slip.... you get the idea).

That is pretty much the way it works with the system I am using. The cool thing is I no longer have to fret over how to implement it as Compuhost does it for me

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The Line Array Experiment is over. Nothing to see here. Move along.

I have always felt new singers deserve to get in a little quicker. Since I consider a rotation as kind of a expanding wheel, there is no set sport for anyone. New singers get intermixed with old - the earlier you get there, the more songs you get. The later you get there, you will get less songs (obviously). The new singers will get mixed 1 new to one old (if called for 2 new to 1 old). Not big blocks of new. That way the old singers are still coming up as well. I also try to keep couples together, so it may fall 2 new to 2 old. If I am close to the end and say 4 new singers came in, I may stick a couple new at the end of the rotation & work a couple more new in the 2nd spot after the 1st singer of the next round. 20 years and no 'major' bitches.
We get a lot of late nighters for a reason - most are getting off work late, am NOT going to penalize them just because they are making a living and want to come enjoy the show as well making them wait as long as whatever the rotation may be at the time. But at the same time, not going to make everyone else wait for an entire group of new singers. From the start of the rotation, I am getting new singers all night long. Some nights I could literally continue the 1st rotation if I kept putting people at the end of the list. At around 15 singers or the first half hour i'll start intermixing new singers into the next round. Where does it end, when is the cutoff point? New singers don't necessarily get up right away either. They are always at least three songs away minimum (as the next three singers are displayed on screen so that never changes). But if there are a slew of new singers, they may take as long as it takes between the other new & old singers. Also I do not continue to put new singers in if they come in later than the last new singer. If a new singer comes in at say 10PM, they go in the rotation. If another singer comes in at 10:15, they don't necessarily go in after the last new singer, I may put them down about the same wait time as the last new singer. and so on. It's a science . But as a rule, once you turn in a song, you will typically not see someone who sang before you - sing again before your first turn. Unless the rotation is THAT long which is rare.
I've been to shows where they stick all new singers together and that is a big part of the reason I run mine the way I always have - I was at one show that I was 4 songs down to sing, but they stuck everyone at the 'marker', and I went from 4 to 12 songs to sing - that wasn't fair either. Long rotations are going to get complaints no matter what you do. I also have a cutoff time where even a new singer may not get a song in, but the old singer that already have their slip in for their last song WILL!
I also don't sing after I get 5 singers, and then every other round if it is under 5 singer.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

All new singers go to the back of the queue, once an 'old' singer has finished they also go to the back of the queue.

I prefer Lonmans system, but I started doing a venue, where people would bar hop or buy one drink, sing, because as a new singer they were up in 20minutes, and then leave. So I switched.

Fortunately at the same time in another venue, which really needed Lonmans method because it benefited the bars locals (who would sit drinking for ages and then turn in a song) rather than my regulars who arrive exactly on time and leave at the end - I had nine bar locals kick off saying "old singer new singer was unfair and I was looking after my own" (In reality everyone had to wait over an hour to sing). So I was able to change the way I ran rotation across all my shows.

I wish I could reward the late comers a bit more - because I show all of the queue on the screen, some singers will leave once they've had their pint and sung their final song. Those who stick around a bit longer to spend money even though it looks like they won't sing again, have discovered that I quite often squeeze a few extra in and sometime run late to make sure everyone still in the venue has a go.

I drop out after six singers, which usually means I only do the first song, but I'm toying with changing that rule in one venue which is stagnating a little - not sure what I'm going to do yet.

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'A genius is one who can do anything except make a living'. Joey Adams.

Yes Danny, your system seems fair and is also how I run my rotation. Lonman's system is also fair, and I am sure there are other fair ways to run a rotation.
Consistency is key!

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Music speaks to the heart in ways words cannot express.

Being consistent is fair.

I had myself in the rotation as a marker too. If the rotation was past me, new singers went to the bottom. If the rotation started over and was before me, new singers went in just ahead of me. This worked for most instances. If a large group walked in and I suddenly had 15 new singers, I'd just have to sprinkle them in and let the other singers know what was going on. I never had anyone complain if I told them I was having to work in a bunch of new singers.

In My list as new singers come in to the bar, I add new singers 2-3 singer after whoever is performing. if I get several new singers durring that time I add the new singer in between every other old singer.

Example:

singer list:

John
kevin
Jason
kim
tasha
randy
jane
brenda
lisa


if three new singers come in named Shawn, carrie and linda, and jason is currently singing (In Red), then the rotation would look like this...

John
kevin
Jason
kim
tasha
Shawn
randy
linda
jane
jason
brenda
lisa

in blue are the new singers. this is assuming that I have completed at least one rotation already at the beginning of the night.

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Sal "Kjmann" Esquivel
Karaoke With Sal - Website

I think the OP method is fair. I also echo the fair=consistent message. I do what Lonnie does with mixing new and repeat singers starting on the second rotation. I even have an Excel spreadsheet with a macro that helps manage it, though I haven't not used it and instead manually manage it within Karma now.

-Chris

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-Chris

I have no markers. You go to the bottom of the screen. Regular just getting off work? Call me b4 and I will get you in.

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KingBing Entertainment C'mon Up! I have a song for you!!! [font=MS Sans Serif][/font]

It is my opinion that, when customers are waiting to sing (more than say, 4-5), a host that sings is "taking" from the bar. That's my opinion - only because I remember when I used to go to karaoke, I was always impatiently awaiting my next turn.

Next:



Edit: Now I see you did move Jason down (I was looking for red, but he turned blue. I'll leave this anyways. Good job btw)...

Absolutely not fair. New singers who have been given priority and interjected into the rotation must be moved to the bottom of the rotation when that round has been completed.

Poor John & Kevin. They were the first to arrive. It's one thing to get bumped once, but if you leave them in that spot, you have penalized everyone in front of them for the rest of the night.

Think of a batting order in baseball. Those at the top are guaranteed to see just as many (if not more) plate appearances than those at the bottom. And, if there are any extra at-bats, they are guaranteed to get them. And those are the batters that you WANT to get the extra at bats, and - because of their batting average, or on base percentage, or ability to hit the homers, they are the ones that DESERVE the extra at bats.

The singers that get there first are just like the deserving batter. They are the ones who belong at the top.

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I'm not a cheerleader, but I paid for my pom poms with my own money!

The Blue Jason was a second person named Jason. sorry for the confusion.

And Why would john and kevin be hurt. it would take the same amount of time to get to them if I put shawn linda and Jason #2 at the end of the rotation.

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Sal "Kjmann" Esquivel
Karaoke With Sal - Website

I would be hung out to dry if I added a singer into the rotation that was not in the room. What would keep ALL the regulars from doing that. I'd have to show them the time stamp on my cell phone to prove the order. Then the "irregulars" (ir as in ir-ritated) singers would complain because they don't get fair treatment.

It is first come first serve/sung. Now if a snger came in and gave me a song, but had to leave for awhile, I wouldn't get any flack about that. It is rotation that has singularly given me the most grief as a host. I get the most trouble from a new singer that goes to other shows that does it "more fair" than I do.

I will leave the "call ahead" for the restaurants.

First-time-of-the-night singers go in at #4 for me (I display #1, #2 and #3 on the cue line).

Then after their first song they rotate just like everyone else.

Oh...and "Must be present to get in line".

The best way I can explain it is to expand on that baseball reference....

You are right in that it will take the same amount of time to get to him. The difference, just like in baseball, comes at the end of the game. If you are down to your last few outs, you want the batters at the top of your order to have those last swings.

One difference between a karaoke rotation and a batting lineup is that the number of batting positions is fixed. It's never more than 9. You can switch batters, but you can't add batters in a "pinch". But, when a new batter is added, the old batter is removed.

A karaoke lineup is expandable and usually gets bigger as the night progresses. If it were fixed like a batting order, you wouldn't have to worry about pushing people around the rotation - as long as everyone sings once in each round in the rotation. But, that's not the case.

The singers you should worry about most are those that are in the original 4-8 spot. Once you interject someone anywhere "above" them, they will then get pushed further down. And, as the night progresses, they'll almost certainly have more and more people interjected "above" them. Now, you might have a 25 singer rotation. You left the interjected singers right where you added them. If you haven't paid attention, those singers in the original 4-8 spots are now in the 12-16 spots. At the end of the night, there are now 8 people ahead of them for a chance at one of the last songs. Who deserves to get the extra songs when there isn't time to do a complete spin through the rotation? The people who arrived late AND already received extra consideration (New Singer Priority) or the ones who have been there all night?

This can be avoided simply by, at the end of each round, every new singer that was given priority then goes to the bottom of the rotation, in the order in which they submitted their first slip.

If you want to take it a step further and be ultimately fair, once a singer has had a new singer interjected directly above them, no other new singers will be interjected there until everyone has been interjected upon.

If that makes sense....

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I'm not a cheerleader, but I paid for my pom poms with my own money!

I run my rotation in the same way Lon does. I have always looked at it as it is fair if it is consistent. Every time people come to my show I insert them the same way. If you put them at the end, do it every time. If you insert every other or every third, do it every time. Whether people want it done a certain way or not loses a lot of its bite if you maintain a level of consistency, and yes, this is noted in my books as how we do it.
I don't care how a KJ inserts when I am at their show as long as they don't make me wait one round from whenever I put in a song and then slip someone else in either before or right after me who came in an hour later.

This Would make sense if I ever had a situation when I would not make it through the last rotation. but the place I work gives me leeway to complete the last rotation. every one always gets to sing their last song at my show.

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Sal "Kjmann" Esquivel
Karaoke With Sal - Website

There is a local 7 Night a week Karaoke Bar in Seattle that runs their rotation like this -

Lonnie <--- Top of Rotation
Sal
Suzanne
Athena
Smooth
<New Singers always inserted right here>
Troy <---Current Singer On Stage
Phill
Bazaa
mrmarog

New singers are always inserted into the list directly above the person who is currently on stage. This is probably the simplest way to "manage" a rotation there is. In terms of pure fairness, everyone else on the list was there before the new singer so they should get to sing before a new singer does. But it also means that new singers may have to wait for a very long time before getting on stage. The only time I went, I waited about 90 minutes and of course only sang one song.

I believe that there is a benefit to getting new singers up earlier rather than later which is why I mix the new singers in with the repeats. I feel I am "fair" about it in that no one sings more than once before anyone else (groups and duets excluded).

I feel pretty confident that my rotation works well. I never get complaints about it and it has nothing to do with regulars being accustomed to it because I have a very small number of regulars downtown and a much larger number of random folks.

By the way....I adopted my method from a host and friend that has been doing karaoke for 20 years. I figured if it worked for him for that long, it must be pretty "fair".

What I have seen at my downtown Seattle bar is this....

I call the first singer at 9:30
Show up before 10:30 and you get on stage 3-4 times
Show up 10:30-11:30 and you get up on stage 2-3 times (usually 2)
Show up 11:30-12:30 and you get up 1-2 times (usually only 1)
Show up at 12:30 or later and you will be lucky to make it on stage at all.

There are of course slow nights where the 9:30 folks may get 4, 5 even 6 songs in if they stay all night. But starting in a few weeks I will have many nights where only the first rotation of 12-15 folks every makes it on more than once.

-Chris

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-Chris

Usually, I have people champing at the bit to sing, so I put myself in at the bottom of the rotation. Until I have 10 singers I stay in at the bottom of the rotation. New singers are added in front of me. When I reach 10 singers, I drop myself out and add in new singers every other singer. I'm trying to keep it so nobody who got there early has to wait more than an hour, but nothing is perfect

Need to study this thread more - I'm always trying to improve what I do and make it more fair...

I am a firm believer that boobs, bulges, money and relationships don't impact the rotation. Beyond that there are several ways to manage it fairly. As has been mentioned many times on these forums, consistency has a strong link to fairness.

-Chris

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-Chris