Karaoke Forums

F that!! What a PITA!! Who wants to go through that every year?? How ridiculous.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

Yea....sucks to run a business and have to be accountable for it.

I don't know how restaurant owners deal with the random inspections and annual certifications they have to do to prove they meet health code standards.....

I don't know how ANY grocery chain has the patience to inventory every single item they have in every single store annually just so they can reconcile what the sold vs what was lost, damaged or stolen..........

And how in the world to many production facilities find the time or the will power to annually certify they aren't releasing toxic pollutants into the environment.....

What a PITA......F all that.....totally ridiculous to have to account for all my discs too.....what a sucky policy....

-Chris

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-Chris

Chris, we play music. We get people in bars and restaurants to sing. We do some of our own singing. We aren't selling food, we aren't dealing with toxic chemicals, and we aren't producing anything but entertainment. I do not see a need to bow down to a Karaoke vendor, no matter who it is, and have them look at my collection every year to see if I am legit. Restaurants, and factories don't get inspected by their vendors. They get inspected by government agencies. I have worked in retail, I have worked in building maintenance, I have done plumbing, I have worked in various restaurants and grocery stores. Not ONE vendor ever inspected any place I have worked at. ONLY local government entities have inspected anything, for example, in plumbing code enforcement and building inspectors looked in on our jobs. In food service it would be the Health Department, in manufacturing it's the EPA and OSHA that do inspections. Now if there was a government agency that wanted to inspect my karaoke collection, I would be fine with that. BUT, I will not allow some vendor, who I pay money to for a product, to come and inspect me and expect me to pay MORE money for an audit!!

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

The problem with your examples is that not one has to PAY to get these inspections!
Yes they are a part of life and I have been in food service, retail and places that have gotten inspected by various inspectors of various types but the store never had to pay anything to get it done, only if they didn't clean up any violations.

You wanna inspect my discs no problem, you want me to PAY for your inspections BIG PROBLEM.

I pay city and county taxes so if they want to inspect something of mine that tax pays for it. If I'm in violation of some law, then I have to pay for it.
I pay federal income tax so if the IRS wants to audit me those taxes pay for it. If I did my figures wrong, then I have to pay for it.
I paid for my CDG's from various manufactures if they want to inspect them then that money should pay for it. If I'm not 1:1 then I will have to pay it.

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I like everyone when I first meet them. If you don't like me that's not my problem it's YOURS!
A stranger is a friend you haven't met yet

Nothing is free.

The health inspections are paid for (depending on where you live) by either state, or local taxes. So you, as an individual, are paying for that inspection/certification even though you may never go to the restaurant.

You are also assuming that ALL certifications of ALL kinds are paid for by someone other than the person or organization that is being certified. There are many, many industry certifications that are paid for by the individual that wants the certification. They must also adhere to guidelines or policies set forth buy the organizations that provide the certification. So it is actually very common to have to pay out of pocket for certain certifications.

I do understand the resistance by karaoke hosts to do so - "I ran my business without needing a certification for 25 years, why do I need one now?". Things change. We either adapt to that change or we don't.

I am sure the karaoke companies could make certification entirely free by simply adding the cost of certification to the base price of all karaoke music. That is effectively the same as the restaurant example above.

As a KJ, I would rather pay my own way and see the price of the music stay lower for everyone as a result. It is also the cost of doing business. I am a business person and I am accountable for what is required by the vendors I work with to do business.

We will likely never agree on this so it truly is a moot point to go back and forth about it. Suffice it to say that *I* am abiding by the rules of the karaoke manufacturers, and I now receive a non-trivial amount of income from that business. I am also free from concern about lawsuits or other legal entanglements.

-Chris


Those that are complaining about it and don't want to pay to play can continue to b!tch and moan about paying a miniscule fee and always wondering the guy asking for that specific track by that specific vendor is an investigator or not.

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-Chris

Hey, Mr. Microsoft Guy, to you $125.00 is nothing and a minuscule charge. To others it is the difference between eating for the week or not. To you, who has hundreds or even thousands of SC discs, it is a minuscule amount of money. To me, who has only 38 of their discs, it is a big deal and not worth the trouble. And, as I said before, those other certifications are given by schools, if you are learning a new skill for your job, or a government agency, which is covered by taxes. NO other certification comes from a VENDOR!! That is the difference, and that is why it is WRONG. Besides, you are only protected from lawsuit for a year after you certify, and DTE will want you to re-cert EVERY year. Last I heard, CB was charging $199 for that certification. Now, just imagine if all the companies were still solvent, and they decided to ALL charge audit fees. Imagine 20 different mfrs charging you, say $150 each. That is $3000. Now imagine having to pay that EVERY year you want to use each mfrs products. $3000 a year is ridiculous, not to mention having to waste all that time being audited. THEN having to check in to report that you have upped your collection by 2% every couple of months. I am GLAD that most of the mfrs are out of business, because I don't think there would be ANY KJs working if all the karaoke vendors started charging for audits.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

are there any other vendors that will sue you for not getting certified in any other industry?
are there any other vendors that give certifications in any other industry at all? i have not been able to come up with one.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

But Lonnie, SC never followed through with a program to audit ODB KJs (or even take our word on it), and list an ODB KJ alongside those Certified KJs in their site (to be given equal exposure). James Harrington mentioned (over a year ago) that SC would be doing that soon, but then that plan seems to have fizzled out.

Maybe now you see, SC is not in it for the KJs just their own pockets.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

Inspections through the govt. are either paid for by tax dollars or initially through the business license applications and renewals. Certifications for professions are paid for by the individual. For instance I have a "certification" as a Veterinary Technician which requires a renewal fee every two years and some hoops to jump through like proof of so many hours of continuing education.

As for vendors, many will require an application and fee to become an authorized dealer. I just looked up an article on how to become an authorized dealer of Toshiba as an example. They require an application fee and and submitting to an inspection by their factory rep or else providing photographic proof of the set up of the store and presentation of the product to make sure it was up to their standards. Some vendors even require taking their training courses in order to become authorized. So there is an example of a "vendor" requiring fees and hoops.

I know people will point out that the above is to sell a product and not a restriction on how a product is used once bought (although you have to buy it to sell it). But the thing that keeps getting overlooked is that the manus are not just vendors but rights holders and different laws and rights apply to intellectual property than to regular merchandise.

I don't like the situation either and understand Smooth's concerns over money being tight right now. But the reality is, piracy has made this a cost of being in this business. I have been staying disc until I can afford to switch but even that costs money in the long run. The cost of a new player could cover an audit fee.

What's the use? Some people will never get it!

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I like everyone when I first meet them. If you don't like me that's not my problem it's YOURS!
A stranger is a friend you haven't met yet

How about, if you pay for a product but then want to use it outside the stated use of that product then YOU have to pay extra for it? Why would the vendor have to pay you to allow you to make copies of their product?

I guess I'm in trouble. I've been using my butter knife as a screw driver and I've been using my monkey wrench as a hammer every now and again. I wish that I had a certification that would allow me to do this so I wouldn't get taken to court by the cutlery company or the tool company. Yikes!

I've even used a karaoke disc as a coaster too.

It is true that I have a day job that enables me to do things that I would not otherwise be able to do. But that doesn't make my karaoke business any less of a business or reduce my responsibility as a business operator. I am adhering to the policies set forth by the manufacturers that I choose to do business with. That has nothing to do with my day job.

-Chris

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-Chris

Maybe not sued, but there are certainly instances where if that certification is expired, you aren't allowed to perform the work.....legally.

-Chris

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-Chris

"Vendors" who sell medical devices sometimes add a training/certification clause. In fact some doctors are even "trademarking" or "copyrighting" surgical techniques--which I find a bit.......but there was a particular knee operation that the originator required a doctor take training and be certified in it before putting it into practice and a royalty was even being charged per surgery.

As for Bruce's example--again--different rights apply to intellectual property as opposed to cutlery or tools.

Maybe the correct term for the surgical techniques is "patenting."

Bruce I am not in disagreement with you on how insane it all is. I just disagree that because it's insane it doesn't mean that the laws don't exist or don't have to be followed. Intellectual property has different rights that can be enforced than does "patented" property. If a kid buys a lawnmower, he doesn't have to pay a performance fee every time he gets paid to cut someone's lawn--yet someone had to come up with the concept of the lawnmower and create it. I don't know why buying a CDG should be any different but the law says it is and that is what we have to work under.

The problem is IP is easily and cheaply copied. I don't think a kid mowing lawns could easily and cheaply make a copy of the lawnmowers he is using. This is just not a karaoke problem. It is a movie, books, music, games (in entertainment), and software problem. For some reason, because of the cheapness and ease of copying, people think they should be able to get these things for nothing. Some people think they are entitled to them. How many people come on here asking where to find free downloads of karaoke music? Too often.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

I would just love to see one of these cases make it all of the way to a court room and let a judge and jury make a final decision on media shifting in regard to fair use. Once I buy a karaoke disc, I should be able to use it in any way I see fit. If I want to bring it to a bar and use it as a coaster, I should be able to. If I want to transfer my tracks to my computer I should be able to and I should NOT have to pay extra for doing so.

You can. You can do anything you like with the disc.



Here's the problem with that--and bear with me, because it's a multi-factor problem.

(1) The value of the content of that CD is in its use.
(2) We meter the use of that content on a per-copy basis. (That's how the law works.)
(3) When you "transfer my tracks to my computer," you aren't really "transferring" them. What I mean is, they aren't removed from the disc and placed on the computer. They're copied.
(4) Creating a second copy doubles your ability to use the content without paying for a second copy.

Now, even with all four of those factors in play, we (meaning SC) might be willing to tolerate it without paying for the second copy as long as people didn't exploit the second copy for money. The problem is, they do. Maybe you don't...but maybe you do, and we need to be sure that you don't or that you pay for the second copy. Both of those options cost money, and when you consider that you ALWAYS have the option to use ONLY the original copy you have, it's not exactly unfair to put that financial burden on you.