Karaoke Forums

MadMusicOne,
That is how it is beginning to look to me....DT has passed the publisher test on the responses I got from publishers(on the 20 new releases they posted)....I wish the responses showed even a tiny be of positive response on the other emails I sent out.

It appears to me that the publishers want to be paid for the addition of download sales for pro use here in the USA (an additional fee from just the fee's for creating CDG's) and it appears to be a bit of a struggle. Maybe more Manus will decide to pay the extra fees and offer tracks KJ's can use in PRO shows here in the USA ?....maybe that will even drive the cost up a bit per track?. I however think most KJ's would be willing to pay a bit more for the ease of downloads.

Please keep in mind that you are only covered IF the venue is paying pro fees.

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"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

...I hear ya. As unpopular as it might be, I still believe in audits only to prove that a KJ/DJ has a legit copy of the tracks he/she uses, if you remember the PM I sent you awhile back? Just want everyone to have a shot at success, in a legal manner!

MadMusicOne,

I just want everyone to have a level field. We need more legal KJ's in our area . This whole download issue has been taking me much more time than I ever thought it could. I have stopped sending emails for now.....I may try again in 6 months or maybe someone else will do research and share besides me. I am glad to have a company to use if I wish to do so (Didn't need the ones last month but will have to see about next issues).

Blessings
Athena

_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

First, I don't need or wear glasses- no nead for huge lettering.

Second, to repeat- licensing downloads for distribution is - again- different then being licesed for use in a U.S. based karaoke show.

A publisher/owner may or may not license said usage, but no site will document such at this time, including Digitrax. Therefore, though they may be permitted distribution through download ( though I've seen no documentation for that either, and they don't add a text.doc that says so), there is STILL no reason to believe that any publishers/owners have given permission for use in a karaoke show.

I'm glad that you are comfortable with using downloads in that manner, simply because the company salesman says so. As for me, I'd wait until even ONE site offers documented usage permissions from the publishers/owners.

In other words, nothing has changed, and IMHO, self-justification for convenience doesn't change possible future liability.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Just as there still may be no reason to believe that any publisher/owners have given permission for 'actual cdg' use in a karaoke show. There is no difference. If the club is paying their PRO fees, it wouldn't matter. I have never seen any documents stating cdg use is legal for kj's either, yet we still use them.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I am going to say this one more time in the hope that you will read and understand.

Usage of all types is licensed by the publishers ONLY through the PROs. (The publishers can license the venues directly, but in practice they do not.) The PRO licenses are obtainable only by venues. Not by KJs. Not by manus. Venues only.

No manu is EVER required to obtain a "use" license from a publisher. No karaoke track is rendered illegal by the failure of the manu to obtain a "use" license. EVER.

JoeC,
I used large lettering before thinking you were reading when WAY too tired. I am not taking the salesman's word...I contacted the publishers that own the rights to the songs and asked them directly if they were allowing DT to sell digital download copies of the songs in question for pro/KJ use here in the USA. The answers I received allowed me to feel comfortable to use downloads from DT.....And as with any track that is dependent on the VENUE paying ascap/bmi/sesac ect

_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

By continuing to use the words "for pro/KJ" use you are confusing the issue.
There are no karaoke manufacturers licensing anything including CDs for pro/KJ use.
When manufacturers license for distribution, it is for distribution to anyone within a geographic area. That's it.
All karaoke tracks are for "home use only". It is not until the venue they are played in pays the "pro use" fees that they are magically transformed into "pro use" tracks.
Harringtonlaw has stated this several times in this very thread and this has been mentioned many times in the past on other threads.
Why is it so hard to understand?

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KNOW THYSELF

@Athena

"Usage of all types is licensed by the publishers ONLY through the PROs. (The publishers can license the venues directly, but in practice they do not.) The PRO licenses are obtainable only by venues. Not by KJs. Not by manus. Venues only."

have the PRO's paid and downloads are as legal as discs provided the distributor of said tracks, not manufacturer, are paying for download license. there is one download license not one for home use and one for pro use.

saying that this site or that site is licensed for home use only and not usable in a pro format is incorrect.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

A HUGE difference. A disc based host is using factory original product, and can pass most liability back to the mfr. A download based KJ is using product ( Files) created by the KJ, not original product, and are completely liable for it's use. The karaoke producers LOVE KJs who believe differently- doing everything they can to mislead them-.

To repeat: Unless a download site will offer documentation of permission to use in a U.S based show by the publisher/owner, chances are no such permission has been given, and they are simply passing off liability to the KJ- with a knowing smile.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Jim, I understand what you are saying. However, unless SOMEONE gives the host documented permission to use downloaded trcks in a show, they are liable. So far, no one - not the sites, not ASCAP, not BMI, not SESAC does. DOCUMENTATION is how a KJ protects himself ( How ANY company protects itself)from liability.

Show me the documentation- FROM ANYONE. Feel free to post a sample of said permissions from the publishers/owners here. No? Then I think we're covered.

So far no one offers it. therefore, anyone claiming to have the permissions seems to be lying.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

And I think you are posting when way too over-focused in hopes of setting other matters to the side.

Earthling pretty much said it, but by all means feel free to post the permissions frons from the publisher/owners to use their music from a download source as a basis for U.S. based karaoke shows. In doing so, please add the Artists, musicians, and all the others involved in the original production who have given their permissions as well.

If you can't, you may wish to take a breather from your current priorities, step back, and remember who you used to be- the person, though in disagreement with me- that could see things from many angles, recognize possible discrepancies, and was honest to the most important person ( to me AND you), yourself. I miss that person.

_________________
"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

"If you can't, you may wish to take a breather from your current priorities, step back, and remember who you used to be- the person, though in disagreement with me- that could see things from many angles, recognize possible discrepancies, and was honest to the most important person ( to me AND you), yourself. I miss that person."

holy crap..........i my not agree with her interpretation but this is a pretty solid jab for just following with what she apparently truly believes. just a bit out of the normal Joe C dialogue....

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

And people wonder why I seldom come to this forum anymore........JoeC I am still true to the most important person MYSELF. I wish you the best of luck with the storm battering your area please be safe.....its no fun to have wildlife swimming around your house.

and with that I am outta here....time for a good long vacation from the forums

Peace to all

_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

At the risk of a repetitive redundancy, The diference is liability. Jim H. and I disagree on this point, but others in the legal field seem to agree that disc based hosts are less likely to be held for much accountability above a Cease & Desist, if it came to that. The karaoke producers would ( and have been) held to a much higher degree of liablity by publisher/owners.

However, download based hosts are not using original manufacturers' product, as I have shown in past posts. The file that YOU CREATE when you download is YOUR responsibility and possible liability.

Again, all of this is relevant only when or if the publisher/ owners get involved. 5 Years ago I would have thought that this would never happen, but 5 years ago I couldn't possibly imagine ANYONE doing what SC is doing either- and the publishers would have a much stonger case.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Jim, I think you may be misunderstanding me. My posts in regard to downloads are directed to the KJs that use them. I am not suggesting or expecting the manu to license usage.

The point that I was making was for KJs who seem to think that such licensing is available from download sites, when it is not. In other words, the responsibility for the usage rests on the KJ, not the site, and they are liable for it.

However, the the PROs cannot license music that is not produced professionally by the factory. Files created by the KJ through downloads are just that- their creations. These are tracks that have been re-created with the use of transmitted data, and are not factory original.

BTW Jim, if you disagree with that, then files created by the KJ from ripped SC discs would have to be considered factory originals as well. Can't be both ways.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

You are correct in pointing that out. I sincerely apologize to Athena for posting the above. I do believe what I wrote, but it was inappropriate and completely out of line to post it here. I had just handled a situation at home that left me overwrought. I state this as an explaination for my actions being out of character, but not as an excuse.

Once again, I offer my heartfelt apology to Athena- and to anyone else who was made uncomfortable.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

It seems the difference could be that the permission to create the "copy" has been given by the download sites, but, apparently, not so much by SC...

This is simply not the case. The PROs routinely license music that is not produced professionally by anyone, much less "the factory." That is because the copyrighted work that is being licensed by the PRO is the underlying musical work, not the sound recording. You would need a PRO license for an amateur singer to sing a copyrighted song a capella, even, in public; otherwise, it's an infringement of the public performance right in the underlying musical work.



The term "factory original" doesn't have any meaning in the Copyright Act. The copyright infringement caused by a KJ ripping an SC disc to a hard drive is infringement of the reproduction right in the sound recording and A/V work (which we have a problem with) AND the reproduction right in the underlying musical work (which the publisher has a problem with).

So, yes, I can have it "both ways" because there are two different sets of rights at issue.

I come on this site every day, hoping beyond hope that one day I will see a post saying that SC has given up this inane policy of suing everyone and given up the audits and the fees so I can rip my SC discs, and get on with my life and my business without having to carry around my player to play 3 or 4 songs when I do a show. So far, no dice. Maybe someday this will happen. One can only hope. I also hope to see that all this nonsense in this business with licensing and rights and purchased downloads goes away.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE