Karaoke Forums

I was beginning to believe that the licensing was a DIFFERENT type, with it being a subscription-based service....not really sure though...

This is not a correct statement of how copyright law works in the vicarious liability and inducement areas. The site can be held liable for the downloading party's use under many common circumstances.



This is not correct, either. Copyright infringement is a strict liability offense. That means, in short, that you can be held liable for copyright infringement regardless of whether you had any level of intent or negligence. That's true even if the person who sold you the track told you it was licensed.

The file you are referring to might act to create an indemnity (or not), but the KJ is still liable for copyright infringement if the publisher sues him.

I will also point out that you will NEVER see a document that states that ANY karaoke track is licensed for "use in U.S. based karaoke shows." You might have been speaking in a form of shorthand, but the reality is that there is no mechanism whatsoever the manufacturer to obtain such licensing for the KJ. What you could see would be a document that says that "production and distribution" of the karaoke track have been licensed for U.S. purposes, but that document will not cover public use because the licensing mechanism is handled by the venue of performance, through ASCAP/BMI/SESAC (or, more rarely, directly from the rights holders).



I will concede that it does raise the possibility, but consider this: A US-based download site is easily sued by the publishers. Because publishers have never been afraid to press their rights against US companies, the fact that such a site has not been sued and shut down by court order suggests that it does have the necessary licensing. The same does not hold true for non-US-based download site, necessarily, and I will agree that the level of vigilance you suggest--if not higher--is appropriate.

1) This is news to me- unless you mean they can be held liable due to false licensing / permissions claims that may mislead a downloader. If you meant something else, I do not necessarily disagree, but am simply unaware of those other circumstances.

2) Since we are treading on unproven ground here in regard to hosting karaoke, I guess anything is possible. However, most of the folks with whom I have consulted pretty much agree that a Cease & Desist would probably be the worst a KJ with documentation from a site would receive- though the site itself would be held to a higher liability.


BIG NUMBER THREE) Completely and absolutely agree- and until or if it ever happens or is even possible, any KJ using download based music is at least open to the possibility of a lawsuit down the road.

Has it ever happened? Not that I know of. Will it ever happen? Who knows? If anyone told me 5 years ago that what was a karaoke producer would be running around suing people for displaying a logo from their PC, I would have told them that they were nuts, and have nothing to worry about.

Business 101: Limit Liability. If a business does not NEED to do something that could hurt them financially in the future, it shouldn't be done- period. Since there are (still) alternatives, one does not NEED to download. If one is running a business, convenience is not the first priority. Profits- both short and long term are.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

just a quick drive by to let anyone interested know that I have received 14 replies about the legality of Digitrax downloads(14 responses out of 20 asking specifically about the monthly releases only)...I did email on each song offered on the monthly releases and of the responses (14 out of 20)come back with publishers saying they[b] are [/b] licensed for download use in the USA. ( on the other 6 I received no reply as of yet) I personally now feel comfortable in purchasing downloads from Digitrax at this time.
I have NOT changed my opinion on other downloads due to other email responses I have received. Please investigate yourself and come to your own decisions after educating yourselves.
Dont have much time for the forums now as business and other things are keeping me very busy ...will pop in now and again to visit

Bright Blessings
Athena

_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

Digitrax is offering downloads?? Interesting.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

huh? i could have sworn that there was no option to offer downloads legally in the U.S.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

It's a brave new world out there...you can fight the future only so long...

Yes... I posted my e-mail correspondences with Tricia here: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=25501&start=20
You must have missed that.

...Cueball, have you tried to purchase any downloads for commercial use from Digitrax, yet? Or anyone else for that matter?

As of yet, I haven't. Also, without Branding to their tracks, I'm not interested. But, as you can see, I did ask several questions and got back responses.

... I hear ya. Wasn't aware of the non-branding. Had noticed that the thread had died rather quickly once you posted those emails. Odd!

You stated:

"[b] are licensed for download use in the USA."[/b]

However, you DIDN'T state that they were licensed for USE in a U.S. based karaoke show.. Big difference. No one is saying that some sites don't have permission to download tracks. It's the USAGE that's could be a problem.

Keep in mind that Jim Harrington has stated ( and I don't disagree) that there is no mechanism in place for ANYONE to license for use in this manner, at least so far.

Limit liability.

_________________
"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

That was the response Cue had stated that they WERE in fact licensed for US 'pro' karaoke use.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I have never, to this day, seen anything that substantiates the existence of ANY kind of PRO license for Karaoke on the manufacturing end...only ones I have seen some level of confirmation is licensing for how it is distributed....

there isn't, the difference between home use and Pro use is PRS.
they can not make them for professional use because they can not pay the PRS fees, that is up to the venue. pay that and it goes from home use to pro use.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Lonnie, don't forget, my questions were only directed to DT, not to the Publishers of any songs, so Joe's statement still has some validity. But, as far as I am concerned, if DT starts Branding their tracks, I might use them from time to time... just like I will still use SBI Karaoke and All Star Karaoke for my custom selections.

I've been thinking (Yeah, I know. I hate when it happens too.)

If no documentation, couldn't a site at least add an ID page to a track stating something like " This karaoke track downloaded from _ _ _ _"?

This way, even if a receipt was lost people like SC will not be able to claim the download as not being 1:1.

It would also be a way for the site to retain at least some of the burden of liability.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

You are misrepresenting what I said.

There is no mechanism for any MANUFACTURER to license ANY karaoke track for public use, regardless of format or method of distribution. I have previously provided a detailed explanation of karaoke licensing, including all of the various rights that must be taken into account and the various corresponding licenses that are required.

The most important takeaway from that should have been that PUBLIC USE--i.e., use in a karaoke show--requires a performance license. That license is obtained from one of the PROs (BMI, ASCAP, or SESAC) by the VENUE where the performance will be held. The manu has no role in that, and the KJ's role is limited to cajoling the venue into buying the appropriate license (and refusing to perform if it is not purchased).

That license is NECESSARY, and a public performance of a karaoke track without it is a copyright infringement. It is not SUFFICIENT to avoid liability for copyright infringement.

(It might help to review the difference between "necessary" and "sufficient," because a license may be both necessary and sufficient, necessary but not sufficient, sufficient but not necessary, or neither necessary nor sufficient.)

My understanding is that DT's tracks are fully licensed for distribution in the method(s) in which they are distributed. That information comes directly from the people responsible, and Athena has confirmed it, more or less, from the other direction.

JoeC,

Just to clarify the issue. I am now comfortable with purchasing downloads from Digitrax for use in my USA based professional shows. Since I sent 20 separate emails to the publishers that own the rights to those songs specifically asking if Digitrax had obtained licencing/permission to offer then for sale via download for use by KJ's in the USA and received 14 yes replies(still nothing on the other 6 tunes)
This does differ from responses on prior emails sent to publishers about other tracks being offered on a download basis, therefore at this time the only manufacture I will purchase downloads from would be DT ( monthly releases)

I still strongly reccomend every KJ take the time to educate thenmselves and make decisions based upon the level of liability they feel comfortable with. My postings are made to try and be as informational as possible....I post my opinoins in the effort to help other KJ's....I do not work for any Manufacturer or distributor.
Athena

_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

...So...I take it the door is opening up for a comfort level in purchasing legal karaoke downloads for the professional KJ from a legit U.S. distributor and can be played in a commercial venue as long as PR license have been paid are up to date? True?