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starzkj
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 Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:29 pm |
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From this letter:
"Since that time Sound Choice has reviewed its position. Moving forward we are supporting karaoke show hosts or companies that purchase all content and have a one for one copy of our karaoke tracks on hard drive or digital systems.
This means we will not pursue any actions against these individuals or the venues in which they do business, provided they
can prove the purchase of original manufacturer's content in support of each and every hard drive they use in a
commercial application to perform karaoke shows."
1. There is no mention of getting permission in advance
2. They have reviewed their position and stated it as a matter of policy
3. There are no terms and conditions, just a statement that they must provide proof.
4. Once media is shifted it is done. It can not be undone.
5. Sound Choice has continually stated they have NEVER given permission. That is a false statement as proven by this document!
JUST SAYIN'!
If someone did not shift back then before current policies were put in place, then this would not apply.
If they did shift then it was done with permission, as long as they were willing to provide documentation. Documentation does not include gauging CD's with razor blades, stamping them and opening sealed discs and no where is it stated that the KJ would be responsible for Sound Choice cost in reviewing documentation.
_________________
Eric Godfrey
http://USKaraokeAlliance.com
http://StarzKaraoke.com
http://Karaoke2Night.com network
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kjathena
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Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:04 pm |
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Dear Restaurant/Bar/Club Owner
"This means we will not pursue any actions against these individuals or the venues in which they do business, provided they
can prove the purchase of original manufacturer's content in support of each and every hard drive they use in a
commercial application to perform karaoke shows."
They are still saying that.......The specification as to the "HOW" or process did not need to be provided to the VENUES. KJ's have been notified for years now that an audit was REQUIRED...(the HOW)for a couple of years they were even FREE.
You are correct a media-shift can not be un-done...the only options to remain LEGAL as stated by a court of law
!. return to playing from disc
2. request and pay for an audit
or Chip's option
3. remove all products from companies that are enforcing the rules.
The letter in question (in its entirety) Is addressed to Bars/Venues explaining that SC was clarifying and loosening the original policy. EVEN HarringtonLaw has explained the policy has been loosened to allow shifting IF the set of rules were followed.
Venues are notified now with packets that explain they can join SafeHarbor(and follow the rules they set) Employ hosts who have passed the audit process, or use Disc based hosts to indemnify themselves as well. These packets have been delivered or mailed to 90 % of the venues in our area( sorry I can only speak about my little part of the world)
"A number of companies(named) also also agreed to follow a code of ethics and adhere to the use of legally purchased content in each and every show they host" Have any of those listed followed that code of ethics and followed the rule to get audited? even when they were free?
Makin People think this stuff out
Athena
_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey
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TommyA
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Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:22 pm |
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Although I do not agree with some of the methodology SC uses in their attempt to ferret out pirates, I have absolutely no problem with the collecting of hefty fees from those they do succeed in obtaining judgments against.
Smooth, quite frankly your constant diatribes against SC recovering monies from pirates and what appears as absolute disdain towards businesses in general (constantly painting them as evil) smacks of either ignorance or hatred of a free society. Business is business and anything else is BS. You don't donate your services do you?
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Smoothedge69
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Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:32 pm |
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TommyA wrote: Although I do not agree with some of the methodology SC uses in their attempt to ferret out pirates, I have absolutely no problem with the collecting of hefty fees from those they do succeed in obtaining judgments against.
Smooth, quite frankly your constant diatribes against SC recovering monies from pirates and what appears as absolute disdain towards businesses in general (constantly painting them as evil) smacks of either ignorance or hatred of a free society. Business is business and anything else is BS. You don't donate your services do you? I don't like Corporate America. That is true. One thing is recovering what was lost. If 100 CDGs were pirated all SC should be due is the money for those 100 CDGs. Charging 5 times more than that is pure greed. No, I don't donate my services, but I also don't charge $1000 for a 5 hour show. I am not greedy. SC is greedy. They are looking to make a living off those they sue, rather than recouping lost revenue. Then to charge $3.00 a song for only 3000 songs of the GEM collection is FURTHER greed. And that is what I DON'T like about Corporate America. BTW, having a free society doe NOT mean screwing people out of money, whether it be pirates stealing content or content providers raping those they sue out of money that they don't deserve.
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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE
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earthling12357
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Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:39 pm |
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kjathena wrote: Dear Restaurant/Bar/Club Owner
"This means we will not pursue any actions against these individuals or the venues in which they do business, provided they
can prove the purchase of original manufacturer's content in support of each and every hard drive they use in a
commercial application to perform karaoke shows."
They are still saying that.......The specification as to the "HOW" or process did not need to be provided to the VENUES. KJ's have been notified for years now that an audit was REQUIRED...(the HOW)for a couple of years they were even FREE.
You are correct a media-shift can not be un-done...the only options to remain LEGAL as stated by a court of law
!. return to playing from disc
2. request and pay for an audit
or Chip's option
3. remove all products from companies that are enforcing the rules.
The letter in question (in its entirety) Is addressed to Bars/Venues explaining that SC was clarifying and loosening the original policy. EVEN HarringtonLaw has explained the policy has been loosened to allow shifting IF the set of rules were followed.
Venues are notified now with packets that explain they can join SafeHarbor(and follow the rules they set) Employ hosts who have passed the audit process, or use Disc based hosts to indemnify themselves as well. These packets have been delivered or mailed to 90 % of the venues in our area( sorry I can only speak about my little part of the world)
"A number of companies(named) also also agreed to follow a code of ethics and adhere to the use of legally purchased content in each and every show they host" Have any of those listed followed that code of ethics and followed the rule to get audited? even when they were free?
Makin People think this stuff out
Athena As I was "thinking this stuff out", it occured to me that the letter was written in the summer of 2008, and the auditing didn't get going until the summer of 2010. It seems that the letter giving the ok to "media shift" that didn't mention auditing, was written without pre-suit auditing in mind because it wasn't available. So .......The specification as to the "HOW" or process did not need to be provided to the VENUES.....because there was none to provide. Just sayin' However there are so many things wrong with this letter it could be argued both ways without ever reaching a conclusion. Either way, the KJ who owns all of his discs doesn't need to worry about losing a lawsuit, because the actual damages are zero. The bigger concern for a KJ who owns his discs should be where to play them after soundchoice sues all of the venues into giving up on karaoke. I guess it could be worse, they could sue the venues into a long term commitment to compete with compliant KJs directly through some sort of cloud service.
_________________
KNOW THYSELF
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starzkj
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Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:41 pm |
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I am done on here again! Wish you all the best.. I am confident on where we stand and once again invite Sound Choice or anyone else to come see our discs. It's not like it will cost anything besides gas as we are located within a 20 minute drive of the courts where they have filed against over 40 KJ's in our area. You guys keep arguing, we have an actual Karaoke business to run! One last thought - a $9,585 judgement is not a $44,000 judgement. Read the document and go to the last page! http://www.pdf-archive.com/2012/07/18/panama-201-judgment/panama-201-judgment.pdf
_________________
Eric Godfrey
http://USKaraokeAlliance.com
http://StarzKaraoke.com
http://Karaoke2Night.com network
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Cueball
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Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:51 pm |
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Location: New York City
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starzkj wrote: ...and by the way, I can not un-shift media after it is done already!... Uhh.... Yes you can. It's called DELETING/DESTROYING the content on your PC/HD. kjathena wrote: does anyone beside me wonder what bearing a letter written to Bar owners/Venues explaining that a host can be digital if they show the disc's has to do with a change in permission ? kjathena wrote: Dear Restaurant/Bar/Club Owner
"This means we will not pursue any actions against these individuals or the venues in which they do business, provided they
can prove the purchase of original manufacturer's content in support of each and every hard drive they use in a
commercial application to perform karaoke shows."
The letter in question (in its entirety) Is addressed to Bars/Venues explaining that SC was clarifying and loosening the original policy. EVEN HarringtonLaw has explained the policy has been loosened to allow shifting IF the set of rules were followed.
Venues are notified now with packets that explain they can join SafeHarbor(and follow the rules they set) Employ hosts who have passed the audit process, or use Disc based hosts to indemnify themselves as well. These packets have been delivered or mailed to 90 % of the venues in our area( sorry I can only speak about my little part of the world)
Was that letter sent out to EVERY SINGLE Bar/Venue, or just a handful (where it was known to host Karaoke? And don't go handing me the line that Bar Owners talk to each other.... They DON'T talk to EVERYONE. Therein lies the rub. As for the line that says "provided they can prove the purchase of original manufacturer's content" ... Prove to whom? SC? The Venue? The letter doesn't state that (not the portion of the letter that you chose to print an excerpt from anyway). And IF I had converted my discs to HD, I still couldn't prove Proof of Purchase, because I NEVER kept my receipts (since the 1st 400 discs I purchased, I purchased as a Hobbyist).
Last edited by Cueball on Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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starzkj
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Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:53 pm |
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OK,
One more thought, but not an argument. Both sides and the judge all messed up on this case. The judge talks about arriving at a wholesale value on discs/ tracks. He arrived at $0.75 per song. He then states they were missing 426 discs and awarded them wholesale value.
Neither side submitted any discs into evidence. GEM discs contain 30 songs, but the missing discs all contained 15 songs.
426 discs x 15 songs = 6390 songs x .75 = $4792.50
Now if they had 30 songs like the GEM discs then that would have been:
426 discs x 30 songs = 12,780 songs x .75 = $9,585.
Conclusion - The judge actually meant to award Sound Choice $4792.50
But hey, I just actually read the details ON EVERYTHING!!
NOW, you can all argue!
_________________
Eric Godfrey
http://USKaraokeAlliance.com
http://StarzKaraoke.com
http://Karaoke2Night.com network
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birdofsong
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Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:09 pm |
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Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:25 am
Posts: 965
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kjathena wrote: Dear Restaurant/Bar/Club Owner
"This means we will not pursue any actions against these individuals or the venues in which they do business, provided they
can prove the purchase of original manufacturer's content in support of each and every hard drive they use in a
commercial application to perform karaoke shows."
They are still saying that.......The specification as to the "HOW" or process did not need to be provided to the VENUES. KJ's have been notified for years now that an audit was REQUIRED...(the HOW)for a couple of years they were even FREE.
You are correct a media-shift can not be un-done...the only options to remain LEGAL as stated by a court of law
!. return to playing from disc
2. request and pay for an audit
or Chip's option
3. remove all products from companies that are enforcing the rules.
The letter in question (in its entirety) Is addressed to Bars/Venues explaining that SC was clarifying and loosening the original policy. EVEN HarringtonLaw has explained the policy has been loosened to allow shifting IF the set of rules were followed.
Venues are notified now with packets that explain they can join SafeHarbor(and follow the rules they set) Employ hosts who have passed the audit process, or use Disc based hosts to indemnify themselves as well. These packets have been delivered or mailed to 90 % of the venues in our area( sorry I can only speak about my little part of the world)
"A number of companies(named) also also agreed to follow a code of ethics and adhere to the use of legally purchased content in each and every show they host" Have any of those listed followed that code of ethics and followed the rule to get audited? even when they were free?
Makin People think this stuff out
Athena Wow, Athena...must be a tough job being the official interpreter for Sound Choice. Thing is -- you're making it up as you go along, and so are they. If SC can re-interpret anything they've said in the past to suit their present litigious modus operandi, then I think option #3 is certainly the best way to go.
_________________
Birdofsong
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kjathena
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Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:21 pm |
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cueball wrote: starzkj wrote: ...and by the way, I can not un-shift media after it is done already!... Uhh.... Yes you can. It's called DELETING/DESTROYING the content on your PC/HD. kjathena wrote: does anyone beside me wonder what bearing a letter written to Bar owners/Venues explaining that a host can be digital if they show the disc's has to do with a change in permission ? kjathena wrote: Dear Restaurant/Bar/Club Owner
"This means we will not pursue any actions against these individuals or the venues in which they do business, provided they
can prove the purchase of original manufacturer's content in support of each and every hard drive they use in a
commercial application to perform karaoke shows."
The letter in question (in its entirety) Is addressed to Bars/Venues explaining that SC was clarifying and loosening the original policy. EVEN HarringtonLaw has explained the policy has been loosened to allow shifting IF the set of rules were followed.
Venues are notified now with packets that explain they can join SafeHarbor(and follow the rules they set) Employ hosts who have passed the audit process, or use Disc based hosts to indemnify themselves as well. These packets have been delivered or mailed to 90 % of the venues in our area( sorry I can only speak about my little part of the world)
Was that letter sent out to EVERY SINGLE Bar/Venue, or just a handful (where it was known to host Karaoke? And don't go handing me the line that Bar Owners talk to each other.... They DON'T talk to EVERYONE. Therein lies the rub. Cueball, I can only speak about our little part of the world(3 counties)...here 90% of all bars received the SafeHarbor paperwork. Judge Moody has confirmed that ignorance is not a valid excuse...it is the responsibility of the venues to insure they are aware of and follow the laws/rules. Each of the 3 venues in question were provided with information on how to stay legal and refused to do so(mostly due to listening to the "pirates lament" from those they hired who didnt own the discs)...And YES they are pissed it cost them money and they are enjoined.....they never thought they could/would be sued and even if they were they could never loose....sic
Now bar owners are talking....after a few had to pay they are paying attention...now they are requesting proof.....I have seen bar owners checking for OMD on even disc based hosts....none here want to have to pay the cost of loosing a lawsuitAs for the line that says "provided they can prove the purchase of original manufacturer's content" ... Prove to whom? SC? The Venue? SafeHarbor packets go into detail as to the who/what/where and why The letter doesn't state that (not the portion of the letter that you chose to print an excerpt from anyway). And IF I had converted my discs to HD, I still couldn't prove Proof of Purchase, because I NEVER kept my receipts (since the 1st 400 discs I purchased, I purchased as a Hobbyist).
_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey
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kjathena
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Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:23 pm |
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Yes Birdofsong.....we all know your opinion on the SC discs rotting in your garage...that IS one option.
_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey
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chrisavis
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Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:49 pm |
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starzkj wrote: OK,
One more thought, but not an argument. Both sides and the judge all messed up on this case. The judge talks about arriving at a wholesale value on discs/ tracks. He arrived at $0.75 per song. He then states they were missing 426 discs and awarded them wholesale value.
Neither side submitted any discs into evidence. GEM discs contain 30 songs, but the missing discs all contained 15 songs.
426 discs x 15 songs = 6390 songs x .75 = $4792.50
Now if they had 30 songs like the GEM discs then that would have been:
426 discs x 30 songs = 12,780 songs x .75 = $9,585.
Conclusion - The judge actually meant to award Sound Choice $4792.50
But hey, I just actually read the details ON EVERYTHING!!
NOW, you can all argue! Nice drive by..... -Chris
_________________
-Chris
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Cueball
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Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:26 pm |
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kjathena wrote:
your proof of purchase would be having position of each disc that had been converted (if you had converted) And where would you suggest I position those discs? I think the word you're looking for is possessionOK everyone... now go a grab a damp rag and clean off your monitors.
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kjathena
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Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:37 pm |
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yes Cueball...I did mean possession....must have clicked the wrong word on spell correct 
_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey
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doowhatchulike
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Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:13 pm |
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I can almost envision this getting to a point where someone calls into question the legitimacy of this whole "audit" process...just seems like the genesis of this process may be improperly conceived as a long-term model, and may even be an improper business practice...making up a policy that results in an additional cost to customers in this manner just begs for someone to call it into question...
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Smoothedge69
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Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:39 pm |
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doowhatchulike wrote: I can almost envision this getting to a point where someone calls into question the legitimacy of this whole "audit" process...just seems like the genesis of this process may be improperly conceived as a long-term model, and may even be an improper business practice...making up a policy that results in an additional cost to customers in this manner just begs for someone to call it into question... They have already raised the rates for the audits from $125 for a voluntary audit to $150, and from $0 discovery audit to $500 for a discovery audit.
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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE
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Smoothedge69
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Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:41 pm |
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_________________
I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE
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kjathena
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Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:41 am |
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Ive allreedy been told Im the wurst speller on the foreums.... 
_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey
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Paradigm Karaoke
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Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:44 am |
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no one told me there would be baklava beatings!!!
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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens
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c. staley
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Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:00 am |
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Paradigm Karaoke wrote: no one told me there would be baklava beatings!!! You have to wait your turn...... the phone number for Mr. Baklava is around here somewhere I'm sure.....
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