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 Post subject: Re: Don't even bother
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 2:22 am 
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JoeChartreuse wrote:
Paradigm Karaoke wrote:
but Joe, cassette is so much warmer than CD.......



You're right, and I started with them, then to LDs, then CD+Gs. However, CD's offer a clear BUSINESS advantage, where MP3s are simply a downgraded convenience for the host. Since I believe that we are paid to WORK, and since certain companies use frivolous litigation for income production, I don't see any reason to change. However, if a new media comes out that is advantageous to my business, I will change over in a heartbeat.

As a matter of fact, if the mfrs. produced their tracks in .WAV or similar files, and knocked off all of the litigous crap, I would change over as well. Unfortunately, business acumen seems to run a bit short in the karaoke music production field.....


You are just being stubborn. MP3+G offers multiple distinct bsuiness advantages over CD's. Ease of use, less physical labor, portability, ease of backup and restore, and more. Sound degradation is subjective and undetectable by the masses. You know this, but refuse to admit you are wrong.

I hereby issue Joe a challenge - come to any of my karaoke shows and I will play CD+G and MP3+G randonly over the course of the entire evening for every one you can guess (and that is what it would be....a guess) is the correct format, I will pay you $5. Odds are in your favor since it is 50/50. You really can't lose except when you get it wrong. :)

Oh....For those of us that roll over and expose our pink under belly's to the malicious manufacturers, litigation is not an issue..... (tongue in cheek except for the last 5 words)

-Chris

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 Post subject: Re: Don't even bother
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:08 am 
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chrisavis wrote:

1) MP3+G offers multiple distinct bsuiness advantages over CD's. Ease of use, less physical labor, portability, ease of backup and restore, and more.

2) Sound degradation is subjective and undetectable by the masses. You know this, but refuse to admit you are wrong.
-Chris



Please be kind enough to re-READ my posts on both of the above.

1) I never said that MP3s do not have advantages- EVER. However, those you mention are merely conveniences for the KJ, not business advantages, which is what I was talking about.

2) HUH?? I don't quite know what you are talking about here. I am not only in complete agreement with your statement that MP3s used in a show"undetectable by the masses", but have said as much many times on the forum. I have also said that there is a small percentage of the population that can, but they do not equate to the "masses", and freely admit that.

However, that doesn't negate the fact that the music IS being degraded, and a LOT of audio info is being lost.

Therefore, MP3s are an inferior sound source, and I will not trade down for simple personal convenience.

Not only does switching add no business advantage, and no added profits, at this time it actually cut into profits by adding costs, aggravation, and use of time better focused on promotion and marketing.

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 Post subject: Re: Don't even bother
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:29 am 
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JoeChartreuse wrote:
chrisavis wrote:

1) MP3+G offers multiple distinct bsuiness advantages over CD's. Ease of use, less physical labor, portability, ease of backup and restore, and more.

2) Sound degradation is subjective and undetectable by the masses. You know this, but refuse to admit you are wrong.
-Chris



Please be kind enough to re-READ my posts on both of the above.

1) I never said that MP3s do not have advantages- EVER. However, those you mention are merely conveniences for the KJ, not business advantages, which is what I was talking about.

2) HUH?? I don't quite know what you are talking about here. I am not only in complete agreement with your statement that MP3s used in a show"undetectable by the masses", but have said as much many times on the forum. I have also said that there is a small percentage of the population that can, but they do not equate to the "masses", and freely admit that.

However, that doesn't negate the fact that the music IS being degraded, and a LOT of audio info is being lost.

Therefore, MP3s are an inferior sound source, and I will not trade down for simple personal convenience.

Not only does switching add no business advantage, and no added profits, at this time it actually cut into profits by adding costs, aggravation, and use of time better focused on promotion and marketing.


Sigh.....

My RIP to computer time is faster than your burn a copy time, that gives me a business advantage.

If I can play MP3+G and suffer no damage at all to the original work or even a backed copy of the work vs handling and causing damage to the original disc or even a burned copy of the disc, one or both of which will have to be replaced at some point in time due to said handling, then I have a business advantage.

If I can set up a laptop in 5 minutes vs 10 to setup my player and haul in my disc cases, then I have saved 50% in setup time. Calc that out of just a month and that is a business advantage.

If I can carry a 3-5 lb laptop vs 50+ lbs of discs and reduce risk of injury and long term medical expenses and loss of wages, then I have a very clear business advantage.

If I can restore my entire library from a back up in a matter of hours vs the weeks or months it would take to re-burn discs, then I have a very clear business advantage.

If I suffer less downtime because of any of the above, and it is pretty clear that is exactly the case, then I don't risk profits and thus maintain higher profitibility and therefor have a distinct business advantage.

now....forget all of what I just said.....

How many disc based hosts are there?
How many computer based hosts are there?

If there weren't a very clear business advantage to being computer based, the numbers would be flipped.

In conclusion, what you are saying is that you are unwilling to "trade down" in sound quality to something that very few people can detect in order to pick up some very clear business advantages and possible health benefits.

I get it now.... :)

-Chris

ps.....like I mentioned to Cue in another thread. I am not against ODB hosts. Just that some of the arguements don't pan out. When ODB hosts just admit it is time consuming and a pain in the (@$%&#!) to rip a library down instead of claiming sound quality and no business benefits then I will be more understanding.

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 Post subject: Re: Don't even bother
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 1:23 pm 
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Quote:
How many disc based hosts are there?
How many computer based hosts are there?


Well one of the main reasons there are more computer based hosts is cheap pirated harddrives. Take the pirates out and the difference lessens significantly.

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 Post subject: Re: Don't even bother
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:21 pm 
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chrisavis wrote:
Sigh.....

My RIP to computer time is faster than your burn a copy time, that gives me a business advantage.

CONVENIENCE... But you must have started somewhere with CDGs before you ripped them to your HD. Did you do that overnight????????????????


chrisavis wrote:
If I can play MP3+G and suffer no damage at all to the original work or even a backed copy of the work vs handling and causing damage to the original disc or even a burned copy of the disc, one or both of which will have to be replaced at some point in time due to said handling, then I have a business advantage.
CONVENIENCE... And if you happen to have a bad rip of that track, you will have to dig up the original disc, examine it for damages, play it to see if the same problem occurs from the disc which occured on your MP3+G play of it, and then (possibly) have to find a replacement disc to start the process all over again (for that defective track/disc).


chrisavis wrote:
If I can set up a laptop in 5 minutes vs 10 to setup my player and haul in my disc cases, then I have saved 50% in setup time. Calc that out of just a month and that is a business advantage.
CONVENIENCE.... You know what time you are supposed to start your shows. You make sure that you are there earlier, so that you CAN set up. Plan appropriately!!!... That's Business Sense. If you know it's going to take you 25 minutes to set up, you make sure you are there at least 30 or 40 minutes beforehand to do so. Likewise, if you know it's only gouing to take you 10 minutes to set up, you show up 20 minutes beforehand. For a show that goes from 10 PM to 2 AM, you are NOT getting paid for the time you show up beforehand to set up. It is NOT a business advantage you are referring to... it's a business convenience.


chrisavis wrote:
If I can carry a 3-5 lb laptop vs 50+ lbs of discs and reduce risk of injury and long term medical expenses and loss of wages, then I have a very clear business advantage.
Again... CONVENIENCE.... If the 50 pounds of discs are too heavy for you to carry at once, then split them into two 25 pound packages. You don't try to lift more than you can handle!!! What about the rest of your stuff??? Monitor/s, Amp/Mixer, Speakers, etc...? My Discs weigh about 20-25 pounds. My Speakers weigh 46 pounds each. Injury and long term medical.... Seriously?????????????





chrisavis wrote:
If I can restore my entire library from a back up in a matter of hours vs the weeks or months it would take to re-burn discs, then I have a very clear business advantage.
Moot point!!! Go back to my first point....
cueball wrote:
But you must have started somewhere with CDGs before you ripped them to your HD. Did you do that overnight????????????????




chrisavis wrote:
If I suffer less downtime because of any of the above, and it is pretty clear that is exactly the case, then I don't risk profits and thus maintain higher profitibility and therefor have a distinct business advantage.
What down time???????? The only down time would be if the player won't play the disc/s, or the sound system isn't working properly, or the Mics are dead, etc... Or, in your case, add on your HD got the BSOD. The downtime is NOT your setup and breakdown times. It is the time between 10 PM and 2 AM (or whenever your show time is supposed to be).

For someone who keeps saying you have nothing against someone who is ODB, you sure do look down on us a lot!!!!


Last edited by Cueball on Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:04 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Don't even bother
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:38 pm 
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cueball wrote:
chrisavis wrote:


For someone who keeps saying you have nothing against someone who is ODB, you sure do look down on us a lot!!!!

Chris is now a Cloud person. He has no more use for us Earthly types. LOL

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 Post subject: Re: Don't even bother
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:31 pm 
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cueball wrote:
chrisavis wrote:
Sigh.....

My RIP to computer time is faster than your burn a copy time, that gives me a business advantage.

CONVENIENCE... But you must have started somewhere with CDGs before you ripped them to your HD. Did you do that overnight????????????????


Business Advantage - I started out as a hobbyist but I have always been computer based. So I started out ripped. You missed the point though. I can rip a CD and have it named properly faster than you can burn a copy of a CD, label it, and place it in a bin in order.


cueball wrote:
chrisavis wrote:
If I can play MP3+G and suffer no damage at all to the original work or even a backed copy of the work vs handling and causing damage to the original disc or even a burned copy of the disc, one or both of which will have to be replaced at some point in time due to said handling, then I have a business advantage.
CONVENIENCE... And if you happen to have a bad rip of that track, you will have to dig up the original disc, examine it for damages, play it to see if the same problem occurs from the disc which occured on your MP3+G play of it, and then (possibly) have to find a replacement disc to start the process all over again (for that defective track/disc).


Business Advantage - How is that any different from having a bad burn to disc? Except I can re-rip a single track much faster than you can re-burn an entire CD. And since I have a large amount of duplication I usually have an equivalent song that will suffice until I can re-rip the track. In two years I have found maybe two dozen tracks that I needed to re-rip. And I have never had to find a replacement disc. Since I can do this faster and more efficiently, that equates to less time doing karaoke work in my personal time and increases my wage as a result.Better work life balance is always good for business.


cueball wrote:
chrisavis wrote:
If I can set up a laptop in 5 minutes vs 10 to setup my player and haul in my disc cases, then I have saved 50% in setup time. Calc that out of just a month and that is a business advantage.
CONVENIENCE.... You know what time you are supposed to start your shows. You make sure that you are there earlier, so that you CAN set up. Plan appropriately!!!... That's Business Sense. If you know it's going to take you 25 minutes to set up, you make sure you are there at least 30 or 40 minutes beforehand to do so. Likewise, if you know it's only gouing to take you 10 minutes to set up, you show up 20 minutes beforehand. For a show that goes from 10 PM to 2 AM, you are NOT getting paid for the time you show up beforehand to set up. It is NOT a business advantage you are referring to... it's a business convenience.


Business Advantage - See work/life balance above. If you have to work 9:30 - 2:30 and I only work 9:45 - 2:15, I see that as a clear advantage as well as a convenience. I actually make a better rate per hour even because I am working 30 minutes.

cueball wrote:
chrisavis wrote:
If I can carry a 3-5 lb laptop vs 50+ lbs of discs and reduce risk of injury and long term medical expenses and loss of wages, then I have a very clear business advantage.
Again... CONVENIENCE.... If the 50 pounds of discs are too heavy for you to carry at once, then split them into two 25 pound packages. You don't try to lift more than you can handle!!! What about the rest of your stuff??? Monitor/s, Amp/Mixer, Speakers, etc...? My Discs weigh about 20-25 pounds. My Speakers weigh 46 pounds each. Injury and long term medical.... Seriously?????????????


Seriously. Tell me the lifting for just 10 events a year doesn't take a toll. Now think about doing 150-200 events a year. Also consider that I have people working for me and not all of them are 6'4" and 250lbs like me. If I hire a 5'3" 110lb woman, anything I can do to lighten the load will be much appreciated. In fact it may mean the difference between hiring someone who can lift the load or not which most definitely becomes a factor (advantage vs disadvantage) at the business level. If someone tweaks their back carrying anything, but for the purposes of this conversation, a case of discs, and I now have to find someone else to do the show, that is a clear hinderance to business operations. Remove the hinderance and I maintain an advantage as well as convenience. But barring even that, *I* don't want to carry anymore than I have to. And.....you can search these very forums and see quite a few examples of people who converted to computer and were happy about it because of the weight difference. If this were more than a hobby and you had to do it 7 nights a week and possibly at multiple concurrent venues, you would very much see it as........Advantage and Convenience.


cueball wrote:
chrisavis wrote:
If I can restore my entire library from a back up in a matter of hours vs the weeks or months it would take to re-burn discs, then I have a very clear business advantage.
Moot point!!! Go back to my first point....
cueball wrote:
But you must have started somewhere with CDGs before you ripped them to your HD. Did you do that overnight????????????????


Not overnight, but it didn't take me 10 years to rip them either. :) I was fully ripped and backed up before my first show.

cueball wrote:
chrisavis wrote:
If I suffer less downtime because of any of the above, and it is pretty clear that is exactly the case, then I don't risk profits and thus maintain higher profitibility and therefor have a distinct business advantage.
What down time???????? The only down time would be if the player won't play the disc/s, or the sound system isn't working properly, or the Mics are dead, etc... Or, in your case, add on your HD got the BSOD. The downtime is NOT your setup and breakdown times. It is the time between 10 PM and 2 AM (or whenever your show time is supposed to be).


Downtime as in you damage a disc and it is unplayable. You could mitigate that by carrying both the original and the copy with you to every event, but that is an awful lot of weight to carry and terribly inconvenient compared to carrying a spare hard drive which can be plugged in instantly (and without a BSOD) and be up and running with no one the wiser. Not to mention, leeping youor originals and your backups gives you a single ppoint of failure (theft, fire, or other similar loss) that I can mitigate with keeping a copy in a secure offsite location (not saying I do...just saying it is possible).



cueball wrote:
For someone who keeps saying you have nothing against someone who is ODB, you sure do look down on us a lot!!!!


I am not looking down on anyone. Just debating your points. I believe there is a clear advantage in practically every way to being computerized. If I were a Kj Consultant I would never, ever suggest doing ODB because of what I see as clear business anf financial advantages as well as conveniences. But if someone insisted, they can obviously still make it work just fine.

-Chris

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 Post subject: Re: Don't even bother
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:20 pm 
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Cueball,

I agree with your point...CONVENIENCE was the main reason we converted.

Without having converted neither DH or I would be able to run a show due to back problems from lifting and hauling any longer, (splitting our discs into smaller packages however would not have worked.....in our area more than a third of the long time host were put out of business or hindered enormously by one of the "wallets" of disc being stolen during teardown) also the LD's were VERY heavy no matter how you carried them.

Not having to replace stolen or damaged disc.....CONVENIENCE
lighter system size/weight.....part CONVENIENCE part economic reality
quicker set ups and tear downs....CONVENIENCE
a smaller vehicle required.....part CONVENIENCE part economic reality


Downtime issues are about equal for us ODB or computerized a savy business person knows to always have a backup of anything that can fail onsite.

But all in all CONVENIENCE wins out.

Athena

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 Post subject: Re: Don't even bother
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 10:12 pm 
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The other problem is if you make it look too easy, then the venue will think "Why am I paying all this money". I've seen people lose jobs because they make it look too easy and quick.

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 Post subject: Re: Don't even bother
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:24 pm 
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chrisavis wrote:
[Sigh.....

1) My RIP to computer time is faster than your burn a copy time, that gives me a business advantage.

2) If I can play MP3+G and suffer no damage at all to the original work , then I have a business advantage.

3) If I can set up a laptop in 5 minutes vs 10 to setup my player and haul in my disc cases, then I have saved 50% in setup time. Calc that out of just a month and that is a business advantage.

4) If I can carry a 3-5 lb laptop vs 50+ lbs of discs and reduce risk of injury and long term medical expenses and loss of wages, then I have a very clear business advantage.

5) If I can restore my entire library from a back up in a matter of hours vs the weeks or months it would take to re-burn discs, then I have a very clear business advantage.

6) If I suffer less downtime because of any of the above,How many disc based hosts are there?
How many computer based hosts are there?

7) If there weren't a very clear business advantage to being computer based, the numbers would be flipped.

-Chris
.



1) It is, because you do not copy anywhere near as much audio info, thus said copies are inaccurate. Also, I only need to burn backup discs as I buy them, not a whole library at a time.

2) True enough, though I have taken the precaution of buying a professional resurfacing device, keeping my originals- and all included audio information intact.

3) don't see how it's quicker to set up the lappy than the player. Remember, I have tried the lappy- no difference.

4) If carrying your discs presents a risk of injury, might I suggest some gym time. This would be even more beneficial. I'm 56 years old, and can carry 1800 discs with one arm. I also carry a 63 pound speaker in each hand when loading/unloading. Do you require someone to carry your speakers for you, or do you use 8" speakers to protect you from down time due to possible injury?

5) I don't have to restore my library, I simply use the backups- saving even more time than you, because it takes no time at all.

6) I've shown that you DON'T save more downtime than me.

7) Incorrect. The flip happened for the convenience of a host wanting to save themselves work, not to be more profitable.


I would add the following:

1) Going through the tech threads, there are thousands of posts describing problems running a PC based show due to anything from software malfunctions, to incompatibility, to sound card and video card problems, improper rips, tagging problems, and generally no factory QC for MP3s made by amateurs.

I submit that despite the incredible leaps in dependability of today's laptops, more downtime is still suffered by PC hosts than ODBs.


2) I would further submit that, thanks to companies that didn't have the management skills to make a profit at karaoke music production, the current litigous atmosphere makes PC karaoke LESS convenient, and MUCH MORE COSTLY- a definite negative to the business.

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Last edited by JoeChartreuse on Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Don't even bother
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:06 am 
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I am ODB and quite happy about it.
I also acknowledge that every KJ's situation and motivation is different, so what works for one may or may not work for another.


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 Post subject: Re: Don't even bother
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 12:36 am 
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timberlea wrote:
The other problem is if you make it look too easy, then the venue will think "Why am I paying all this money". I've seen people lose jobs because they make it look too easy and quick.



Timberlea, this was my biggest gripe when PC hosting started. Everyone has a PC at home, and when they saw KJs using them at shows, everyone's uncle Charlie decided that they could do it too, as I predicted they would. A couple of powered speakers, a mic and a monitor, and they thought they were pros.

Certainly they sucked, but they managed to destroy the market WAY more than the pirates have, and when pirates and hobbyists combined, the $75 undercutters entered the market in droves, driving the prices down. My shows have dropped from $450 in the heyday to an average of $250, with one show as low as $180.

Of course, KJs are not alone- DJs have suffered a similar fate. Some did it to themselves. One guy I know took over a gig at a huge NY City nightclub. The previous DJ was making $1500 PER NIGHT! However, that DJ was using full equipment, and brought in his personal disc AND vinyl library each time. When he got hurt ( shot outside the club) the new guy took over. However, this guy came in with nothing but a couple of small MP3 players on a chain around his neck ( not even a full PC) that he could hook in to the club system. New fee after his first show? $280.

He lost $1220 PER NIGHT.

Of course, it was much more convenient.....

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 Post subject: Re: Don't even bother
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:38 am 
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JoeChartreuse wrote:
1) It is, because you do not copy anywhere near as much audio info, thus said copies are inaccurate. Also, I only need to burn backup discs as I buy them, not a whole library at a time.


i copy exactly the same amount you do, to the letter.

JoeChartreuse wrote:
2) True enough, though I have taken the precaution of buying a professional resurfacing device, keeping my originals- and all included audio information intact.


and step by step grind away at the plastic that you hold so dear while my disc is in pristine condition with a bit for bit copy on my drive.

JoeChartreuse wrote:
3) don't see how it's quicker to set up the lappy than the player. Remember, I have tried the lappy- no difference.


yeah, probably about the same if everything is in a rack.

JoeChartreuse wrote:
4) If carrying your discs presents a risk of injury, might I suggest some gym time. This would be even more beneficial. I'm 56 years old, and can carry 1800 discs with one arm. I also carry a 63 pound speaker in each hand when loading/unloading. Do you require someone to carry your speakers for you, or do you use 8" speakers to protect you from down time due to possible injury?


it is still a risk, but i will agree minimal for you. for my out of shape a$$ however.....
i would rather not carry it if not needed, if you enjoy carrying more than necessary just because............

JoeChartreuse wrote:
5) I don't have to restore my library, I simply use the backups- saving even more time than you, because it takes no time at all.


and i just plug in my backup drive, no additional time. a draw again.

JoeChartreuse wrote:
6) I've shown that you DON'T save more downtime than me.


ok, probably about the same.

JoeChartreuse wrote:

7) Incorrect. The flip happened for the convenience of a host wanting to save themselves work, not to be more profitable.


same money in less time with less work is more profitable. but how is being more convenient a bad thing for business?

I would add the following:

JoeChartreuse wrote:
1) Going through the tech threads, there are thousands of posts describing problems running a PC based show due to anything from software malfunctions, to incompatibility, to sound card and video card problems


yup, just like anything else, take care of your stuff and you wont have these problems. i can tell you i dont.

JoeChartreuse wrote:
, improper rips, tagging problems,


asking how someone else does it is not the same. this is like those asking how others do their books. would you rag on someone like this if they didn't do a proper numbering system for their discs? i bet you would.

JoeChartreuse wrote:
and generally no factory QC for MP3s made by amateurs.


find one that wasn't you touting the lack of QC of mp3's........of course since i was discussing .bin files, it is moot.

JoeChartreuse wrote:
I submit that despite the incredible leaps in dependability of today's laptops, more downtime is still suffered by PC hosts than ODBs.


0 down time in 5 years, i would be willing to bet you would have the same making us equal.

JoeChartreuse wrote:
2) I would further submit that, thanks to companies that didn't have the management skills to make a profit at karaoke music production, the current litigous atmosphere makes PC karaoke LESS convenient, and MUCH MORE COSTLY- a definite negative to the business.


for one company, yup, i agree.

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 Post subject: Re: Don't even bother
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:13 am 
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chrisavis wrote:
If I can carry a 3-5 lb laptop vs 50+ lbs of discs and reduce risk of injury and long term medical expenses and loss of wages, then I have a very clear business advantage.
cueball wrote:
Again... CONVENIENCE.... If the 50 pounds of discs are too heavy for you to carry at once, then split them into two 25 pound packages. You don't try to lift more than you can handle!!! What about the rest of your stuff??? Monitor/s, Amp/Mixer, Speakers, etc...? My Discs weigh about 20-25 pounds. My Speakers weigh 46 pounds each. Injury and long term medical.... Seriously?????????????
chrisavis wrote:
Seriously. Tell me the lifting for just 10 events a year doesn't take a toll. Now think about doing 150-200 events a year. Also consider that I have people working for me and not all of them are 6'4" and 250lbs like me. If I hire a 5'3" 110lb woman, anything I can do to lighten the load will be much appreciated. In fact it may mean the difference between hiring someone who can lift the load or not which most definitely becomes a factor (advantage vs disadvantage) at the business level. If someone tweaks their back carrying anything, but for the purposes of this conversation, a case of discs, and I now have to find someone else to do the show, that is a clear hinderance to business operations.
Well then... Considering I am a Hobbyist/1-man Operation, I bow to your GREATNESS.... You just started hosting Karaoke less than 1 1/2 years ago, and you already have multiple people hired out that are working for you. Not bad for a person with just 1 system.... Congratulations!!!
chrisavis wrote:
Remove the hinderance and I maintain an advantage as well as convenience. But barring even that, *I* don't want to carry anymore than I have to.
FINALLY!!! You admit that it is a CONVENIENCE (as did the many others here who have stated that was the MAIN REASON they converted their CDGs to HD).




chrisavis wrote:
...that equates to less time doing karaoke work in my personal time and increases my wage as a result.Better work life balance is always good for business.
chrisavis wrote:
If I can set up a laptop in 5 minutes vs 10 to setup my player and haul in my disc cases, then I have saved 50% in setup time. Calc that out of just a month and that is a business advantage.
cueball wrote:
CONVENIENCE.... You know what time you are supposed to start your shows. You make sure that you are there earlier, so that you CAN set up. Plan appropriately!!!... That's Business Sense. If you know it's going to take you 25 minutes to set up, you make sure you are there at least 30 or 40 minutes beforehand to do so. Likewise, if you know it's only going to take you 10 minutes to set up, you show up 20 minutes beforehand. For a show that goes from 10 PM to 2 AM, you are NOT getting paid for the time you show up beforehand to set up. It is NOT a business advantage you are referring to... it's a business convenience.

chrisavis wrote:
Business Advantage - See work/life balance above. If you have to work 9:30 - 2:30 and I only work 9:45 - 2:15, I see that as a clear advantage as well as a convenience. I actually make a better rate per hour even because I am working 30 minutes.
Oh puh-lease!!!! You get paid $200 for a 4 hour show (or whatever your rate is), and so do I... That is the rate you/I quoted to the Venue. You/I did NOT tell the bar that you/I would be taking an extra 30 minutes/1 hour to set-up/break-down everything. You/I did NOT tell the Venue that it would take you/me 1 hour/2hours/3 hours/pick a number hours to travel to/from the Venue as well. You/I quoted a FLAT RATE for a 4 Hour Show...PERIOD!!!!!!! It's an advantage to you personally (not as a business), because you quoted a FLAT RATE. Spin it any way you want, but it is still a convenience.


Last edited by Cueball on Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:28 am, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Don't even bother
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:19 am 
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D@mn straight its convenient! It's all about convenience!

Maybe you guys LIKE lugging around antique CD players, binders full of discs, cleaning, caring, polishing, worrying about damage, etc.
I don't miss it one bit. Less things to carry in/out = GOOD in my book.


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 Post subject: Re: Don't even bother
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:48 am 
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Cue....we are abviously at a stalemate. But....

I have more than 1 system.

Convenience often ends up becoming a business advantage.....I have no problem admitting that. How many KJ's have gone from computerized to disc based? If disc based were a business advantage at all, people would be converting from computerized to disc. Some may have done that but I don't know any.

I don't know how you quote your gigs, but I take into account a lot of variables. If it takes me 2 hours to set up and another 2 hours to break down, I charge a higher rate than an event where it takes 30 mins on each end.

It is the same thing that people (like me) with non-karaoke day jobs do when they negotiate salaries. If they live 50 miles away from work and have a 1 hour commute, they may negotiate a higher salary. They rarely give that back if they move closer or find a faster route.

The fact remains - we both have 4 hour gigs at $200 - It take you 30 mins on each end to set up and break down and it only takes me 20. At 10 gigs a year it only means saving 200 mins a year. At 150 gigs a year it is 3000 mins that I am very happy to have back and 3000 mins I am not giving away for free.

-Chris

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 Post subject: Re: Don't even bother
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:01 pm 
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Paradigm, just to clarify:

I'm not anti-PC hosting, though it not my personal choice. The fact that their use screwed the market is now a done deal. Nothing can fix it, so moving on from there.

The point I was making is that no one has shown that it is better for BUSINESS.

I shifted from cassettes to laser discs because it was agimme. On screen lyrics and graphics was a HUGE leap, and a boon for business. Not just because the current singers loved them, but now non-singers could watch the screen follow along, and realize how easy and fun it was- increasing my market base considerably.

I shifted from LDs to CD+Gs because of the HUGE cost savings for music and discs - and I mean REALLY huge. This added a lot to my profit margin. Yup, they are more convenient too, but that was not a deciding factor for my business.

I used a lappy for about ayear (until it died) for small house parties where room was at a premium. I had no problems at all with it ( I used the original PCDJ/KJ Red). When I had it, as previously stated, use in public at that time would have helped screw the market. Hell, I used 10" FB Maxx speakers at those parties as well. Doesn't mean I would use them in a bar venue.

At this time there is simply no good business reason to switch if one hasn't done so already. No market increase, no real increase in profits. There is also the possiblity of legal problems and additional fees.

In other words, if one is PC based already, terrific- and enjoy! However if one is not, I would suggest holding off either until the legal manure dust has settled and/or a new, revolutionary media with a better profit potential for the KJ hits the market.

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 Post subject: Re: Don't even bother
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:30 pm 
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Chris, why on Earth would you be carrying your gear in? We play 6 nights a week and we never carry gear in - we use these:

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=I4525569014236606&pid=1.1

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 Post subject: Re: Don't even bother
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:33 pm 
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timberlea wrote:
The other problem is if you make it look too easy, then the venue will think "Why am I paying all this money". I've seen people lose jobs because they make it look too easy and quick.

That's a fact. I've seen a couple venues over the years that bought the same cheap crap (VocoPro systems and even small all in one systems) that their KJ had and bought a loaded drive & laptop.

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 Post subject: Re: Don't even bother
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:39 pm 
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Honestly I didn't go computer for convenience - truth! I switched solely because I liked features offered in the software that aren't available to disc based users - yeah yeah I know ODB users don't 'need' any of those fancy gimmicks, but I like them and so do the customers - like being able to see the next three singers & what songs are coming up on the house tv's, or being able to add songs they'd like to try at a later date to their list & it will be available to them next time when they ask 3 months down - hey what was that song again I wanted to try, or whatever......
Personally I LIKED and do miss the hands on approach with actual discs - made a night more challenging IMO than just a mouse click. But again, no software benefits.

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