Karaoke Forums

If you go back and review posts from Jan 1st until now, the "cheerleaders" usually bring up certifications in response to the incessant whining from the other side about how certification is a bad thing. I say usually because even I have started threads that indicate certifications (IMO) are a positive thing. But if you look at trends and themes, the anti-cert, anti-Sound Choice folks win hands down.

Go back and tally up the threads in the Legalities forums. There are very few threads started with the intent of extolling the virtues of certifications while there are countless threads that have been started questioning the manufacturers, questioning the lawsuits, and generally portraying any action taken by the manufacturers as being negative.

The tone is heavily weighted to the negative side. You and the rest of the anti-cert, anti-Sound Choice folks have had plenty to say and it definitely out-weighs anything the pro-cert, pro-Sound Choice folks have to say. To say that the other side gets to push certification "any old time they want" is not only false when we look at the archived messages, but to further say that "It only becomes an issue to you when one of us points out the opposing view in response" ignores the vast majority of the messaging that has been posted in just the past 6 months alone.

The numbers speak for themselves anyway - How many certified hosts are there compared to non-certified? The certified folks are a vocal minority.

-Chris

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-Chris

They get to bring it up as a topic any time they want to discuss some aspect of it, sure. They get to reference it. But if they wanted to take over a thread to talk about how certification was the best thing since sliced bread all the time? That would be a no-no.

Just the fact that you are always talking about "the other side" shows that you think there is only one fight, one war, and one topic.


"Pushing" of certification? You can mention it if you don't make it *the* topic in every thread. And it isn't, not by a long shot. If you find people taking over threads like that, by all means report them. If they take over your topic, demand that they go back on topic.

In fact this part of the forum was created because I, among others, was sick of constant "KIAA" posts in every thread. They were pushing the certification by that organization, and eventually they were told they couldn't do that constantly in the main forum as it was promoting the organization on the web site. People were sick of it.

Now there is a place to talk about such things. But we should talk about topics, not have your one fight, one war, and one topic between you and "the other side". Find things to talk about, and do. Don't slash and burn through every topic with the same fight.

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

This is false and unfortunately can not be proven either way for several reasons.

1. There have been many threads deleted that no longer appear here that could tip the balance either way.
2. There have been many threads split into other threads based on a moderator's point of veiw and they have lost the context that led up to the splitting of the thread.
3. The search function on this forum is totally hosed and doesn't reliably search posts prior to April of this year. Test it by searching keywords of your own early posts and see for yourself.

I believe in the past the balance of opinion posted here has been about equal since one side always feels the need to answer the other side. I have found these debates to be very interesting and informative from both sides. I think it is a pity that these discussions are being disrupted and scattered and deleted and locked and stifled because of a single person's opinion and desire to shape the direction of every conversation. I also believe that it's just a matter of time before these actions take their toll and we see the death of all conversation here and this forum simply becomes a place for newbies to ask what equipment they can get by with on the cheap (there's a repetitve topic for you...).

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KNOW THYSELF

A ways back there was argument that the piracy topic should not be on here at all because the mission statement of this forum was about the fun of karaoke. There were also some that felt the issue only served to advertise one brand and wanted the discussions banned. So the who is getting favortism argument has gone back and forth between both sides for quite some time. The compromise was to put piracy in it's own forum so that those who didn't want to be brought down by the negativity could avoid it.

Once on another forum I started an innocuous thread entitled "What are you going to be for Halloween." A fellow no longer on this forum responded with, "An incompetent Sound Choice Investigator" and off it went. A sour note just had to added to every topic. I don't think Micky J is trying to censor so much as keep the piracy discussions in their own section and not have every single topic turned in that direction.

I also remember reading that being a moderator does not deprive one of expressing an opinion. One just isn't allowed to base decisions on that opinion. If you look at what MickyJ keeps repeating, he says discuss it all you want--just don't turn every thread into the same discussion.

Care to share your numbers with everyone, since it seems you've counted?

earthling12357 has some very valid points here and I would definitely agree that what things appear to be NOW (as opposed to before items were deleted, and moved around to varying degrees) are NOT what they have been in the past, nor are they an accurate indication as to what they are now.
MANY threads now appear to have been started by people that, in fact, did NOT start them, but instead were snipped from previous threads on the whim of seemingly one moderator, and as such, are merely replies to said previous threads and not original posts in and of, themselves. This has the effect of making it appear that the OP is someone else, when in fact, it is a MODERATOR who started the thread.
Kind of screws up a proper count as to who started what, especially when there is no notation as to what thread it was originally snipped from.

Indeed the act of snipping a thread and retitling it with a title not chosen by any poster from that thread is in fact creating your own personal "straw man" and "red herring" all rolled up in one.

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KNOW THYSELF

Lately, any time someone with a viewpoint other than yours (ie: aligned with SC's methods and tactics) mentions it, even in passing as the cheerleaders are permitted to do, you come down on them. How is that fair to everyone when you've just stated that the cheerleaders are permitted to "reference" it, but we aren't? Overly sensitive about it much?

Wow again. You assume much about me and you are completely off the mark on this one.

I can think of several cheerleaders here who mention that you have to get certified if you want to stay "legal" every chance they get, especially to newbies. Some of us here have differing opinions about that, and since it's not been determined in a court yet just what that is, then some of us feel obligated to offer the opposing viewpoint on that so that people can stay informed about ALL the viewpoints, not just your one sided one. But you would have us muzzled and deny people the information that is only fair they get so that they can make up their OWN minds regarding such.

I wouldn't think of it!
As I stated before, I'm of the opinion that conversations should be allowed to naturally flow naturally, not stifled and contrived to follow whatever agenda you decide should be the order of the day.

As was said before this section was started because some people didn't want to see all the piracy talk over and over again. And now that this section is here, you complain about the content still.
There are some posters here who drove me up a wall with their constant repetitive posts about the same darn thing. You know what I did? I stopped reading their posts and amazingly, I'm not bothered by them anymore. Go figure.
For those that are "sick of it", it remains to be said, yet again: THEN DON'T READ IT!
Skim over the posts that you deem repetitive. It's not hard to do. I do it all the time.

I have just posted that I have never authored any thread titled"Sound Choice compared to a protection racket, and that it's authorship was falsely attributed to me, after it was split off.

Said disclaimer was deleted within minutes of it's post.

Since Mickyj57 came up with this title in a previous post, I assume he did it on his own.

I had suggested that corrections be made immediately.

Because of the problems that this can cause, I have also notified the forum of the situation, including deletions.

I want it clearly known that I do not agree with, nor am I associated in any way with that title.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

I thought forum rules doesn't allow the questioning of what moderators do here.

Duly noted..

Management is aware of your no involvement in this thread..

Your name was included only because of the split..

Neither the NSA nor the FBI will contact you in the future..

Chill out..

Since the conversation has taken a turn away from the posted topic, pursuant to Mckyj57's request, I will begin a new topic.

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Birdofsong

Well, I did, and I thought I was following the mod's rules, but alas, my new, on topic thread was deleted. Cest La Vie.

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Birdofsong

Can't win for losing, I guess!

It's a privately owned forum. Fairness is optional. If you post something that ruffles the feathers of a certain moderator, your thread and or your posts will be deleted.

We are BORG. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. You will join the SC army or be censored repeatedly until you tow the party line or leave the site out of frustration. Then the only people left will be the cheerleaders and all will be right with the karaoke world.

Ahhhhhhh. Kumbaya my lord!

There is actually a forum as you describe in existance. It's so peaceful that they start aguing among themselves Human nature, I guess.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

You are quite capable of find that info out yourself I am sure. But I did go back through posts to the piracy forum from Jan 1st til now and it is overwhelmingly anti-cert/anti-Sound Choice/anti-postive.

As for other numbers - there are less than 250 Sound Choice Certified folks on the SC page. The vast majority of those are certified as a result of something OTHER than pro-active audit. Of those, very few participate on these forums. Even fewer still take a vocal position in the forums.

We are the vocal minority.....






While counts would normally matter, it is the tone that actually counts. Go back and look at your own posts and watch them turn from generally positive when you came to the forums and how negative they are now.

Maybe mirrors should be standard issue with membership here....


-Chris

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-Chris

I'd like to see a manu or two get a mirror

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My statements, opinions and conclusions are based on my own personal experiences, observations, research and/or just my own $.02. I'm not a "cheerleader", but that doesn't make me a Pirate.

Yeah, that's exactly what I thought you'd say. You're pretty predictable, you know.



You gotta wonder why that is.
As for smaller numbers of SC certified KJs, you gotta wonder why that is, too.
Maybe some of us don't think it's worth it, or even right.


Funny you should bring that up. You want to know why things are the way they are now? Since you seem to have taken note of when things "turned to the negative" as you put it, then you would also know that that occurred right around the time that Kurt joined up and started accusing anyone who didn't agree with him and/or his tactics and/or refused to get an audit on his terms of being a pirate, including myself. With many other members here jumping on his bandwagon and lending him a helping hand, I guess that would cause a body to be a little negative towards him and his tactics. Especially with the division it's caused in the ranks here.
Had you been here when he was still posting, I doubt very much that you would be extolling the virtues of SC certification right now. He would have outright accused you of being a pirate (by your own admission, you were)and strung you right up, regardless of circumstances. In Kurt's eyes, it seemed, that anyone who
a)didn't buy their disks and
b) didn't submit to and audit on his terms and
c) didn't agree with everything he said or did
was a pirate and should be hung out to dry with absolutely no mercy, regardless of individual circumstances. And that would include YOU.
And just try and get him to listen your excuses. Good luck with that.
Anyone who challenged what he was saying was immediately attacked by implying they were pirates too.
Many of us, including myself, Chip, and Joe piped up and said, in not so many words, and in many different forms, "Hey! Wait a minute here. Not everyone is a pirate. Perhaps you better slow down a bit before you go accusing everyone. You should be looking at individual circumstances here before tarring them all with the same brush".
We tried to point out problems with his way of dong things. Some suggestions he eventually listened to, but most he did not. Instead he vilified anyone who challenged or disagreed with him.
Most, if not ALL of those posts are gone, having been deleted either by the mods or perhaps by some of the posters themselves for their own reasons, so it's not possible to verify what I'm saying that way, but I can assure that those who were here and those who took part all know what went on. YOU DON'T
At any rate, long before you were here and long before Kurt came here, things were different. Most of us got along and those that didn't weren't near so horrible as what has gone on with some no longer here (and some that are still here) since. In fact, those that didn't get along back then do now. Amazing!
So before you go judging me or anyone else here about how negative we are, perhaps you should do your research a little better. Better yet, why not avoid judging altogether?
Mirrors on joining? Sure, bring it on. I know a few here who could use them. In fact I know a few who could use some really big ones.
But more than that, I say before you judge someone, perhaps you should stop and think better of it. Maybe people will judge YOU without knowing all the "facts".

Diafel forgot to mention that he also deemed anyone whose library was not SC in the majority a lousy KJ.. Yup, he is in agreement with the brand-dependents- go figure....

Diafel, I've seen myself in the morning, and I'm not so big on mirrors either....

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

If you thought I would say it, you should have actually predicted it. Anyone can say after the fact "that's exactly what I thought you would say".

But if you really want, I can go make the post count and come up with the exact numbers. However, you should do one yourself to confirm what I come up with. Otherwise, you would simply be taking my word for it and we wouldn't want that...would we?




I don't wonder why at all on either count. The current certification programs are inconsistent and flawed. Three different (now 2) companies with differing requirements and policies. Of course it will be viewed with skepticism.

You and many others have been very clear that you don't think it is worth it or even right. I am on the other side of the fence. If we could agree to disagree, then we could spend more time talking about things that truly impact our business and help us succeed.



I am well aware of Kurt's style. I have also mentioned many, many times now that I agree with WHY he is doing what he is doing, but not with HOW he is doing it. There are many aspects of Sound Choice actions that I do not agree with. I just don't feel it is necessary or valuable to say it over and over and over and over in a public forum. I prefer to discuss it with civility directly with him. This has proven to be much more effective.

For the record, I have never used pirated material. I purchased a system that contained pirated material, I did not use it in production. I used only the material that I did have discs for. There was a 6 month period after me paying in full for the CAP and when I received my certificates from Stellar. During that time I didn't use any of the Stellar material covered by the CAP. After I received the certificates I started putting the CAP covered materials back in production. I used the few discs that came with the system, bought a few retail discs, and started making bulk purchases very early on.



It wouldn't include me because
a) I did buy my discs and
b) I did submit to an audit on his terms and
c) Kurt knows I don't agree with everything he says or does. The difference being I don't berate him in public, I don't curse him or his company (or his attorneys) and I maintain a private dialog with him.



I don't want to spend a lot of time defending Kurt directly. He can do that himself. But for perspective, if an industry you helped create stole everything you made and then ran you out of business, wouldn't you be a little bitter? Wouldn't you be pretty quick to point the finger at people? Especially when on these very forums, just about anyone could throw a dart and chances are pretty good it would hit a pirate host? Kurt could have taken a different approach to things, but it doesn't change that many THOUSANDS of people stole from Sound Choice. As a company they employed good people that had to find other jobs when Sound Choice ramped down production. I would be pretty pissed off too.

I am not judging you. I am making a comment based on archived and observed information. The information may be incomplete, but it doesn't mean that the observation is incorrect. Unless you are telling me that the events that have taken place on these forums have reshaped everyone's core values then you and everyone else should be able to post the same way prior to said events. I think everyone needs to step back a little, evaluate their own actions, and then manage their own identity instead of letting others influence them so greatly.

Kurt isn't here any longer.....let it go.

Take a look at this.....

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=22776&hilit=hostile

Six months ago and less than 3 weeks after I joined here, I called out the hostility in these forums. Well before I started going toe-to-toe with Chip and well before I was exposed to the repeated back and forth between anti-cert/pro-cert/anti-SC/Pro-SC folks. Nothing has really changed that much. I manage it by I ignoring certain threads now and actively try to stay out of certain kinds of discussions. But I still have yet to recommend these forums to anyone.

-Chris

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-Chris