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JazzyBaggz
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 Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2004 11:05 pm |
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Ok.. well i was just about to go to sleep and then an idea hit me about the whole rating thing. I decided to come post it before I forget what it was  . I'm pretty sure I will wake up tomorrow morning and be like.. ummm what the heck was i thinking?? but I'm gonna spill it out anyways whether it makes sense or not..
I was thinking... what IF we had no scale at all?? What if the rewards were only positive ones, and nothing negative. What if there was no way for any type of "revenge" ratings.. and the only thing that came of any type of "rating" system would be positive things??
What if.. instead of stars or numbers or what have you, all we did was make it where listeners can award a special "rating" for those songs that they find absolutely exceptional. It could be like a little box that you check when you as the listener are totally blown away and consider it to be tops... That would eliminate any "bad" feeling about "rating" and allow for it to be a reward only system with nothing "taken away" from you. It can only be given. It would also prevent anyone from purposely trying to damage your "rating" because they would not be able to subtract from what is given to you (they can only choose to not give it which is a neutral rather than a negative)
People can still give constructive critisim if they so desire without feeling like they need to attatch a "number" to it. They can just choose to reserve their "special rating" for those songs they find exceptional. That would also eliminate the bad feelings or the need for anyone to have to "explain themselves" over what rating they give.
This would still allow for the top list thingies to exist because you can take the percantage of people who give that particular song/person the "special rating" to "rank" the song/person for the lists. If you notice.. since noone really wants to use a full scale rating system, the only thing you see on the lists are the "10's" anyways.. This kinda makes the extra numbers worthless. The only thing they can be used for is to hurt and not help. With what i'm suggesting there is no "negative" involved and the people who still want some kind of award/rating system will still have what they want...
In case I'm not making sense.. here is an example...
Say I submit a song and 4 out of the 8 people who comment give me that "exceptional rating" That would be 50%
and Luly submits a song and 8 out of 10 people give her the "exceptional rating" That would be 80% thereby placing her song above mine for any list purposes...
Neither of us were "demarked" or "downrated" for anything we were just awarded by those who found the song exceptioanal.
Instead of showing a rating in that little column on our song page, it can just show how many of those "special ratings" we got..
I hope this makes some sense.. As it is 2am, I am probably not making sense and will be quite embarassed reading this tomorrow lmao..
I just think this might be easier on everyone and still allow for the "rankins" that some desire.. As much as I want to give "honest" scores as I said in my other post.. I just haven't been able to bring myself to do it.. This would be great because I can just comment as I feel and reserve my "special rating" for those songs that really stand out for me..
What do you think?????
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[font=andalus]We Are the Music Makers, and We are the Dreamers of Dreams...
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Rob Ward
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 2:27 am |
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I think i like this bedtime thought of yours, and i think this would work out very good, 
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Emma
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 2:34 am |
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Kudos to you Jazzy!
This is probably the very BEST ratings/rankings idea that I've heard yet!
Poor Phill, the thought of all that script that would need to be changed!
Great idea!
/HUGS,
Emma
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In front of a mirror with a hairbrush in my hand...SING!!!!!
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Genise
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 6:51 am |
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i am not in favour of a ratings system, yet after reading what you have suggested jazzy...i think that is a brilliant idea....i won't rate anyone and many many times i have been blown away but because of my principals i havent rated...i would however click a little box which is an extra little bit to say just how good i thought it was.
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milo
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 7:02 am |
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Brillant idea Jazzy!!!! Really, you must do more of this late night thinking! My mind goes bonkers on me all the time when I'm trying to sleep, but it's mostly just junk stuff! 
I still want you to critique me though and welcome any others also. I'm subbing a song this morning that I didn't completely obsess over - just put it up so you guys can have a go at me! No need to be gentle either... 
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Phill Cross
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 7:19 am |
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I am not certain if I fully comprehend the feature that you are suggesting?
It still seems to be a ranking system but instead of someone directly giving the submitter a rank (1-10 or 1 star - 5 stars) they click on a box that provides them with an exceptional rating.
In your example, you suggest the following:
If you received 4 clicks of 8 listeners then you would be ranked 50%
If another singer (in your scenario, Luly) received 8 clicks from 10 listeners she would rank 80%.
I get that.
Now here is the problem:
1) Some people (many in fact) listen to a submission more than once. Thereby the listener count goes up, percentage would go down.
2) By someone not clicking the button that actualy counts against the submission.
By doing either of the above someone could manipulate the submission ranking just by listening. Ouch!
Next:
I would have to write a script to configure it so that only one listening is counted per person (This may be possible) however, this would slow down the page load while the script determines if the person has previously visited the page. Then to determine if they have previously provided a click (or rank).
The click is then actually a rating but only on a 0 to 1 scale. No click = 0 a click = 1. This would now become a popularity contest and not an actual rating scale. (Does that make sense?)
Someone had previously suggested something similar. To take into consideration the actual number of times that a submission is listened to in order to determine the rating.
I am not certain whether this suggestion would actually function as an accurate rating system or an alternative to a rating system.
I am working on a method that may be more accurate but I am still configuring it. Something along the lines of a sliding scale - I remember back in high school some teachers implemented that. But I digress...
I will see what I can come up with, in the meantime things will remain as they are. I hope that is okay.
Phill
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BeachHeadBum
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 9:06 am |
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Phill,
One site does this based on 2 things, a cookie, and a sign in name. All 2 have to be there to register a vote.. the admin of BeSonic.com is very open how they curb thier Chart minipulation and how they code it. They are from Germany and do write in English. They are very polite people and if you were to change how you were to do the ranking system, I would suggest an e-mail to them, as thier ranking / charting is one of the world's most credible on the internet. I encourage you to look at this site closely.
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Brian D.
(BHB)
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JazzyBaggz
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 9:12 am |
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Thanks y'all for listening to my late night ramblings I'm glad you guys thought it might be something that could possibly work
Phil.. I totally understand if it would not be feasible to script, but I just wanted to clear a couple things up that I was thinking
First of all.. I was thinking that the percentage would be gotten from the comments given versus who gives the special rating. not how many listens.. sorry I did not say that clearly.. So If 10 people comment, and 5 give the rating, it would be a 50%.. I think that would make more sense
Yes, that is very true that by not giving the "special" rating, those people ARE affecting the percentage.. but not because they have done anything negative. psychologically, it would be much nicer because noone is actively "taking away" from anything.. they are just not giving it if you know what i mean. And the psycological aspect is very important...
I also think that more people would be willing to use this.. Actually, I can't imagine anyone wouldn't because it's only an award and not a penalty. I think many of those who don't ever rate right now like our lovely Missy here would be able to use this thereby including more of the members and their opinions..
oh yes.. i do realize that this will be in part a popularity contest.. there will always be those couple of people who will give their buddy the "rating" always. But enough people will probably be using this system to counterbalance those who are doing such things. Any kind of rating has an element of a popularity contest just by nature.. that is unavoidable...
I hope that clears some things up... and as I said before.. I realize this may not be feasible, but I still wanted to put it out there on the chance that it could work.. Thanks for listening!
Elisha
_________________ [scroll] [/scroll]
[font=andalus]We Are the Music Makers, and We are the Dreamers of Dreams...
We are the Movers and Shakers of the World Forever it Seems...[/font]
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BeachHeadBum
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 9:19 am |
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Jazzy,
I made that type of suggestion to Phill MANY months ago...
You are not the first... And I'm betting I was not either.. 
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Brian D.
(BHB)
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Tigrr27
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 6:16 pm |
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ya know I am fairly new here so what do I know but what the hell is the big deal about ratings and comments anyways??? I haven't seen so much bickering over something so trivial as rankings or ratings since I volunteered to chaperone my son's kindergarten class... it seems there are alot of people here who's high self esteem is totally dependant on what their rating is or how many positive VS negative comments they have gotten... this attitude of "you are a low life scumbag if you listen to my sub but don't comment" is so out in left field I cannot begin to understand... you listened to my sub so now I owe you something??? what the hell??? I have heard some WONDERFUL singers on here, some better than what I have heard on the radio, and i have heard some singers that make the rejects on American Idol sound awesome- BUT WHO CARES!!! maybe phil needs to set it up so that in order to submit ONE song, a member needs to make 5 comments to some one elses subs because if I am a new member who comes in and reads the posts in the forums here it would appear to me that that is the only thing that matters- stupid comments... hey phil maybe ya can set it up so that in order to listen to a submission it be mandatory that the listener comment FIRST before the sub will play - this way all the T's are crossed and the I's are dotted and everyone is happy... I didn't realize when I became a member here that sub rankings and mandatory comments was high priority for people here... silly me I thought singing and karaoke was... I am such a jackass for thinking that... here is some rocket science to chew on- no matter what system of ranking you choose to use (stars, clicks, no clicks, 1-10, blue ribbons or smiley faces) it will ALWAYS remain subjected to the tastes of the listener... if i am a country music person and i listen to someone who does a kickass rock song I will probably not give it the highest marks because it is not my thing... let me type that slow so everyone hears- it is not my thing... it has nothing to do whether I like this person or that person... it has nothing to do if the person comments or doesn't comment on my subs... it is always going to come down to the life experience, tastes, and environment of the listener who is doing the ranking... hey phil here is a thought- throw out the rankings... is there a prize I don't know about at the end of the ranking rainbow??? is there some recording contract that is being kept secret??? when people start losing sleep over something this goofy it is time to turn off the computer and read a book... I have listened to some songs that were given 10's in the rankings and I have had to ask myself if everyone else is listening to the same thing that is coming thru my speakers because for some silly reason I thought 10's were supposed to be near perfect... does it stop me from listening to other songs by the same person? no! and let me tell you why because I know you would want to know my thoughts on the matter- because I am not listening to the subs looking for perfection or clones of the original singer or to earn browny points to use in the politics of this forum... I listen to them because I LOVE music... I enjoy hearing the different versions from different singers... I enjoy hearing the emotions alot of singers put into their music... I love the novelty that for 3-5 minutes any of us can be a star no matter what our skill level... I love the thought that people are sharing their gifts (and not so gifts) with complete strangers who hopefully feel the same way back... why do you listen??? I would hope it was for similiar reasons but the constant bickering and need to create some "fair" (whatever FAIR is) system seems to say otherwise... I am writing a letter to DR PHIL in high hopes that he will come and help some of the members here....
since I am new I totally expect to be flamed by the clique who rules here but that is OK because I understand how this forum works simply by reading all of the forums... I will slip back into the corner and continue to listen to subs no matter what the rankings or comments are... as always, keep on singing- tig
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BeachHeadBum
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 6:30 pm |
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I know you are new and all.. I suggested that too.. ratings are a real hot button here... 
P.S. I know of no contracts being handed out on this site... although I know of ways of getting them. It's not a big secret...
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Brian D.
(BHB)
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Luly
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 6:56 pm |
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Elisha, I think it's awesome of you to be thinking up ways to try to help everyone be happy. It's to be commended that you've taken the time out to express your ideas. Not everyone is going to be content at all times with the way any system works, but it's great that we can discuss it, throw out ideas and hopefully come to something close to what most people want. You've managed to do this in a positive way and I thank you for that! 
And Phill, you are just the greatest! You always listen and respond pronto! Who could ask for more??
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JazzyBaggz
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 10:10 pm |
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awww BHB.. can't ya let me feel special about thinking this up??  .. I guess what they say is true about great mind thinking alike err.. or something like that
ummm tigrr... hun I don't know why you are upset. I'm hoping it wasn't this discussion. And i'm sad to see that you chose this discussion to get so irate  There was no bickering here, or any of the negative things you suggested. Yes, I agree that the best things about this site are just the pure enjoyment of music. It's become clear that not everyone ONLY thinks that. There are some that do get a thrill out of the ranking part, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that even if it's not what I feel. We can't disclude those who do like some sort of rating format and dismiss their feelings as being stupid or wrong. They just get something out of and see something different in this site than some others do...
This was not a debate thread or a flame thread, or a thread designed to be anything but me trying to voice an idea in a neutral and positive way that I thought may be helpful. Noone was even bickering or being negative on this thread.. i don't get it. I know that whatever rating system, there will always be some conflict here and there... but that's why I decided to suggest this idea because I thought it would be a more positive way to keep the rakings with less of the drama and bad feelings that result from the ratings. YES.. rating is subjective.. that's the way it is and always shall be..who was arguing that?? My suggestion was just that we DON"T have a rating scale but use a award based system where you as the listener can just choose to "award" those songs that really stand out to you and you like without having to do anything negative to someone and maybe cause tension and bad feelings... that was both sides still keep what they want and possibly with less friction..
I'm very saddened that for some reason you chose to flame my otherwise non-flammatory post. I have the best intentions and was just trying to add an idea that I thought might help STOP these bad feelings and make it work a little better. I have nothing else to say except that I am shocked at this outpouring of rage and sarcasm in a post that I did not write to provoke such a response...
Luly.. thank you so much hun for seeing what I was trying to say, and for being understanding. It makes me afraid to post anything on this site when my post gets jumped all over for no reason. I was just trying to be nice and as helpful as I can..
my bad.. I guess i shouldn't be doing that..
Phil... keep up the good work
*going back to MY little corner now*
Elisha
_________________ [scroll] [/scroll]
[font=andalus]We Are the Music Makers, and We are the Dreamers of Dreams...
We are the Movers and Shakers of the World Forever it Seems...[/font]
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Crystal
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 10:21 pm |
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I dunno...... I'm just a newbie, so whaddoIknow..... but this my take on the whole "rating" thing:
why do we have ratings at all?? As far as I'm concerned, Karaoke is just a form of entertainment..... I certainly don't want anyone to rate me, because that's not what I'm here for. When I go to a karaoke bar I don't see any ratings there.... I dunno.... call me crazy, but I thought this was just supposed to be a fun thing. Why clog it all up with ratings that just hurt people's feelings, and are really just a popularity contest.
Please don't hate me!! ! just my 2 cents! 
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Crystal
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 10:24 pm |
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PS
Way to go tigger. That was quite the mouthfull, but I agree! whole-heartedly.
(I wrote my comment before I even READ yours.... I thought I was the only one)
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JazzyBaggz
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 10:34 pm |
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Hey Crystal thanks for sharing your opinion on the whole rating thing.. as i said this thread was not meant to be a place to debate whether or not we should or shouldn't have them. I have already said many times that I'd love it if there was no rating at all..
The problem is that there are people who do like it, and it's been made pretty apparent that some form of rating will always be a part of this site whether we all like it or not because some people do like it and I guess Phil sees that it isn't fair to totally get rid of something that some people are liking.. He did the best thing he could have and made it so that people can choose whether or not they want to get rated.
Since it is clear that rating is here to stay, it does me no good to complain or argue that I think we should get rid of it.. I instead was trying to think of ways for everyone to be able to deal with it better..I was only suggesting an idea which i share with BHB apparently that would make the system more pallatable and have less negative things.. I don't know where all this negativity is coming from on this thread and where the debate and anger is coming from when it has NOTHING to do with what this thread is...
I made this post with all the love and respect for the people of this site not as a debate but as a way to help more people be happy..
*confused*
Elisha
_________________ [scroll] [/scroll]
[font=andalus]We Are the Music Makers, and We are the Dreamers of Dreams...
We are the Movers and Shakers of the World Forever it Seems...[/font]
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BeachHeadBum
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 10:36 pm |
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Jazzy,
I'm not trying to steal your thunder.. but It's an issue in my own mind that never got it's proper attention... personally I think it was blown off just to satisfy those who liked getting easy 10's...
If I wanted the easy 10's and chart domination there other sites I could go to and kiss up to the mods.. I won't do that .. I'll just be myself here and do "my own thing" and have fun doing it...I never have done that anywhere in the music industry.. I have always done things in the industry the hard way...There are no shortcuts to success.
I think this is going to move like I saw it earlier.. towards either a No-ratings system or a simple Yes/No vote system with a single vote per day per singer. (providing a fair system can be worked out) like ssl encription... Not likely but who knows..
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Brian D.
(BHB)
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Tigrr27
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 10:47 pm |
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this wasn't just a reply to the obsession of demanding ratings and comments I understand you do not see it that way and that is ok- different strokes I guess... this was a general reply to this thread and the numerous other threads where there is constant bickering and complaining about people who listen to a sub and don't comment (those ogres how dare they) and those who don't reply to every comment (those ungrateful sob's) and those who don't rate a sub a 10 (don't they know I am the next american idol???) so, although I replied to this thread, I was hoping to avoid having to post it in the many other threads trying to "fix" the ratings game and comments... I guess I am the crazy one here that sees the emperor has no clothes and decided to say something I know I am painting myself into a corner here by saying anything and I am expecting a secret meeting of the high court of karaoke order to vote me off the island... I do have the pleasure of knowing I have private support from members who know they could never get away with speaking the truth and saying what I said... again I ask- what is so necessary for ratings??? is the need to somehow fufill a lost chance to be on star search (the challenger gets 4 stars and we have a NEW champion!!! *insert crowd applause here*) or the need to be validated so great??? maybe I am wrong, I doubt it, but just maybe... I thought this place was for singing but obviously I am wrong on that point... I have seen threads whine about people who give all 10's when they rate and then if someone gives them a 9 (god forbid) they are crucified for it and called revengers and negative ... I guess I will just drink the kool-aid and shuddup cuz the obsession for a ratings system is greater than the need for reality.. but what do I know... - tig
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BeachHeadBum
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 10:52 pm |
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Tigrr...
I'm in the recording industry..and I'm not singing at a perfect 10 level on all my subs.. and I know I'm definately NOT the next American Idol... or CMA award winner... for the next 2 years atleast... There are very few on this site that deserve that honor.. I can name them off the top of my head..
Please check your ego at the door.. There is some tough company at this site...
From what I have seen the paying members seem to justify some of decisions here.. If those who pay want perfect 10's push thier cause and drive away those who don't want scoring of songs then KS will lose out in sheer numbers of members... Then, that's the way the cookie will crumble... and there will not be a single thing that can be done about it after the fact. Those members will be gone.
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Brian D.
(BHB)
Last edited by BeachHeadBum on Mon Oct 11, 2004 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tigrr27
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Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 11:01 pm |
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BHB the comment in parenthesis about american idol was in sarcastic jest... please read the post over and notice the comments prior to that in sarcastic tone also in parenthesis... I will turn my Sarcastic Lock on my keyboard on... I have no delusions about my ability and I am over the AI age limit anyways so scratch that idea... also being 5'1, I believe I would never get past the "You must be this tall to ride this ride" sign at the front door... just an observation... - tig
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