Karaoke Forums

I have 7 burned CDGs that I bring with me to shows (when I go out). They contian about 90 songs on them. These are all mixed up from different discs. I'm not going to go through the trouble of bring 30 original CDGs with me, just to prove that the song on one of the burns I brought with me is from that. It totally defeats the purpose of me bringing the burns. Plus, I'd rather bring just the few discs with me as vs a whole bunch of discs that someone could try to walk off with while I'm on stage singing, or using the Bathroom.







It's not quite that simple. What about those that are travelling on vacation, and just happen to stumble into your show. They're only going to be in town for 2 or 3 days. They don't know that you have a website. They didn't go ONLINE a week (or a month) before to check out what you have available. They didn't write to you and request that you order Pocket Songs 1057 (songs of Andrew Lloyd Weber), or Pocket Songs 1151 (Jeckyll and Hyde) or Pocket Songs 1222 (Miss Saigon), or Pocket Songs 1016 (Les Miserables), or Just Tracks 20 (Jeckyll and Hyde/The Scarlet Pimpernal)....all of which are stuff that probably would never get sung at your show, and understandly you wouldn't be expected to order it.



As for the quality of my burns, they are pretty good. Not every song is perfect (as they were copied from my originals, which have a lot of wear and tear already). As for garbled words, I haven't seen that appear with the burns I jhave brought with me to other's shows. Maybe an occasional word that didn't get fully printed, or a small splotch that appeared for a second, but overall, the songs have been very legible. If they weren't, I wouldn't bring them, and would reburn my disc minus that one song.

I'm afraid that for the most part, I simply will have to concede that we have differing views and leave it at that my attempting to argue the point is not very productive.

I've just received an email from a very well-spoken member of this forum who has me rethinking my policy when it comes to rare or out-of-print discs. I am forced to admit that his argument was sound and based on that email, I could be convinced to play a duplicate - but ONLY if proof of ownership is presented.

I wrote to him that I am amazed that you people don't want to risk a $35.00 disc, but you expect me to risk the quality of my show and the possibility of a fine which would easily put me out of business.

Don't bother trying to point out how rarely the fines are levied. The fact is: The fines HAVE been levied. People HAVE been put out of business. I'm not willing to accept even the minimal risk that it may happen at my show while I'm playing your disc. The risk is solely mine to accept or refuse at my show.

If someone else is willing to take your burnt disc and your word that you own the original, Great. You know which show to attend. I have no malice towards those who follow that form of policy.

For me, the bottom line is this: I have very rarely been asked to play a disc from someone else's library because where I am, most hosts have a small subset of the library I currently use and are very pleased with the selection of songs that I carry which they do not. Those who have made the request have never even tried to present a burnt disc. As such, the arguements I present can only be taken in this context. I can't say what it's like where you all come from because the amount of hosts in your larger cities obviously is greater than the close-knit family of hosts in mine. We have our differences, but we generally respect each other and the policies we have set in place. I've enjoyed having most of them at my shows and have often heard comments such as "I enjoy the way you run your show". There have been some who don't like the way I operate, but you can't please everyone, can you?

With this, I'm going to wind down my participation in this debate. I have my policies and I respect yours. If we all ran our shows the same way then we'd all be stuck in a rut and everyone would lose out.

I appreciate your comments. I will use some of your suggestions and will be thinking of your arguments when someone does finally present me with a burnt disc. Until such a time, it's still all about the joy of singing.

I must say, though, that I am impressed with the tenacity of your arguments. It shows a strong dedication to your singers which can only result in a winning combination no matter what the policies are.

I can only hope that the eloquent people on this forum aren't the ones on the receiving end of legal action for copyright infringement. We need people like you for competition. You keep the rest of us on our toes and ever striving for a higher level of service.

Thank you.

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Karaoke is for those who love to sing regardless of ability.

As a home user, US Copyright Law allows me to duplicate my discs, make compilations, or even resample the disc itself. The Beatles can't tell me what to do when I'm in my basement, my car, or jogging with my walkman. This is Fair Use. As a commerical user, I can't legally do anything with a disc other than play it (and then only with the appropriate licenses!). Converting it to MP3, making a duplicate, making a compilation, etc. are all illegal.

That being said, if I as a home user make a compilation disc (which is legal) and take it to a show, at what point does it become an illegal disc? Is it the KJ's disc? No. Is the KJ using that disc to make money? Not really because it's not part of his library. If all the KJ's stuff were confiscated, could the gestap...err...police legally seize that disc? No. So, at what point does the disc become illegal?

I hate piracy, and I despise pirates, but the simple act of someone bringing me a burned disc is thin evidence that they are a pirate. Accusing your crowd of criminal activities without solid evidence is a poor business practice that I choose not to do. I think it is unfortunate that agencies like RIAA and KAPA purposely confuse issues and take such a hard line stance that people fear to exercise their legally allowed rights. If they were truthful, friendly, and open about what's allowed and what isn't I would support them and start buying Sound Choice discs again.

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By Request DJ & Karaoke Company - Yesterday's Traditions...Tomorrow's Technologies

Nooo, stick around and continue to try to point out that most of us are wrong and you and BJC are right...



You know, if it's taken offline, you should probably leave it off line... My question now (since you brought it up) is why couldn't they say it here. I've been very honest, and this type of (seeming) dishonesty irks me... because it makes a good point... but suddenly, they might be a closet copier or archiver and don't want anybody to know of it.



Oh, ONE garbled thing that is gone in a second is the "risk" you are talking about??? Oh gimmie a break!

As to the second point, NAME ONE SHOW that's been put out of business, or one operator!! I'd love to see this happen! I'd LOVE to be challenged. Chances are, they were NOT a simple operator like you and I, but instead a multirigger, or selling copies... chances are, it's internet hearsay. The manufacturers do NOT want you to do this, but they can't do a smeggin' thing about it... and they know it. I've been preachin' this gospel for over five years, and I've yet to have received ANY legal warning or notification about it. Don't quote "could have beens" or "I've heard"... facts ONLY, or your arguement doesn't carry any water. If you want to be paranoid and worry that the cops are going to burst down your venue door because you took in a cdr from a CUSTOMER, you have some serious issues there!



You're a well spoken member, and I for one will miss your participation in these types of conversations!



((sigh)) okay, I stand corrected! Love the little dig at the end! Sheesh!



and a hearty thank you as well!

Matt

I've seen all these arguments before. I really am curious about one thing. Has anyone ever actually tested these laws in court? I know about how the RPAA (or whatever) strongarms people into forking over 3 grand out of court or face a suit for 100G, but I've never heard of a court decision involving copyrights and karaoke songs. Can anyone sight a specific case?

Guess, please remember that Heartland and our friends from canada are under different rules and regulations.

Take for instance, even though one owns every original DJ cd in there CD case, they must purchase a special permit to be able to be a Digital based DJ (computer)

They are different rules on the CD pools too.... take for instance, in the US if you have a subscription to Promo Only, TM Centruy Products, NuTraxx.... once you pay the subscription, you keep the cd's indefinately; Not in canada, the CD pool companies have to pay a yearly license to keept those CD's still legal, and if one of them does go out of business, you may have to return the CD's..... sorta like you were renting those CD's.... SUCKS DON'T IT!!!

the canadian version of the RIAA is called the AVLA (I think that is Audio Video Licensing Agency)

Very good question. Here's a better one: Can anyone really afford the time and capital outlay as a small business owner to test these in court?

Personally, I have better things to do with my time (Sing!) and money (Get more tracks to sing!)

Knightshow: Thanks for your kind words. I didn't say I was going away, I am just going to limit my interaction with this topic.

I can't remember the mod's name... But yes, Perhaps there is a bit of a difference in laws. I don't know the laws you are under in the US.

In Canada, there is a lot of this going around and there are people thinking the tax we are now subject to for recording media (A portion is said to go to the pool of artists - but no one's ever verified that they've actually received it) makes it perfectly legal for us to copy whatever we wish as a supposed 'royalty' is already built in to the price of the CD-R. You'd be amazed how many people think this is a license to use peer-to-peer networks and download whatever they want because 'they paid the royalty on the discs'. It'd be nice if that were true. I think that's the intent that the Canadian Government may have had when they set this up. Problem is... I'm theoretically paying into their artists fund for the discs I use to distribute my own software or back up my computer. So they're actually getting more than they should. It's enough to make you shake your head vigorously towards a brick wall.

I don't know about you, but I'm too busy to spend my days in court to test these things. I absolutely detest lawyers and get into situations where I have to pay them as rarely as possible.

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Karaoke is for those who love to sing regardless of ability.

Sorry, nothing to do with the convo....just YAY!

Another Edmontonian! I am not alone in the world!
(I hope from the Edmonton in Alberta, Canada)!

Sorry, back to the real subject...I was just excited!

But that's the thing. I've seen it called piracy but what the DL'ers are doing may actually be legal. The RPIA is basically resorting to extortion to try keep people from doing something that may be legal. We had a similar situation decades ago when they sued Betamax and Betamax kicked their butts.

I wouldn't mind seeing the ACLU take a shot at them. There are things about karaoke that make it different from other recordings, including the parody aspect, where copyright laws are affected. I aslo wonder if recordings made before the karaoke era are protected.

Odd thing I just discovered - at least with my machines. I use 4 Pioneer laser players, 1 Pioneer V10 dual tray , 1 JVC SV22 single tray & an RSQ 222 single tray.
All my back ups play fine on all of the Pioneer machines - no graphic garble - MAYBE a tick here & there (if any), but nothing that is distracting. Now those same discs played in the JVC & RSQ machines both look terrible. Garbled graphics all over.

What players are everyone else using?

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I have the gold JVC triple, and an older RSQ505 dvd/cdg player.

RSQ single CDG and an older pioneer LaserDisc which also plays CDG.

Perhaps this is why I was getting all those problems playing the burns?

Hmm. The things you learn when you aren't looking. <:

I'll have to try to see if it was Just the RSQ giving me headaches. Never looked too deeply into it. Just stopped playing burns.

And Ritisroo: Hi. Yes, I am in Edmonton, and I also know Corey. I did some recording at one of his studios years ago with my band.

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Karaoke is for those who love to sing regardless of ability.

I've mentioned this to one or two of you before....

I have seen the RSQ machine start to garble the words from my burns, yet play perfectly on the JVC machines. Also, the garbled graphics were more noticeable when I had a full disc, using between 65-75 minutes of space, as versus putting no more than 15 songs on a disc, using between 55-65 minutes of space.

could also be mis-aligned laser too... maybe the burner is not burning the CD to the specs that the original was pressed at.

I play burnt CD's all the time, and very few have graphic issues that are major. by major i mean you loose the words and swipe and backgroun, a blip here and there is to be expected for any CDG, even originals, after being used so much.

I began my cdg collection about a year and a half ago.. since then I have spent close to 2000 dollars and it's been a case of trial and error as far as the quality of these disks.. many of these manufactuers evidently don't check for spelling , some leave out vital parts of the song..example: the last line in Stairway to Heaven is missing ...so perhaps there would be less piracy if the cdg folks would provide higher quality disks.. they already charge 20 dollars or more a disk..

jlv

Well, in my second year i was turned in by a lady to ASCAP who said i used illegal copies!! At that time...i didn't EVEN know you could make copies...and yes....they came to where i worked. they gave me a big book of rules....checked my collection one by one. Luckily....my venue paid it 's ASCAP fee for karaoke....and i had all originals. So in my case....once burned......always legal. that's my stand. I just don't see why i should...and not to be mean....but.......IT IS MY BUSINESS.... and i run it how i see fit. I don't take mcdonalds hamburgers into Burger king.

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Now this guy I like. <:

Thank you for showing that yes, people do get investigated.

I've done a lot of thinking over the last while. I've come full circle and state again: It's not worth it to me to be dealing with a lot of "what if's". People should be lucky that I'm willing to play outside discs at my show PERIOD. If they don't like the stated and published rules I have set in place, they should go elsewhere.

You can't please everyone and I'm not going to lose sleep trying to please the one or two people per year who ask me to play discs which are not in my library.

If you want to make burned compilations, that's not my problem. Play them at home, or at shows whose hosts allow this sort of thing.

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Karaoke is for those who love to sing regardless of ability.

....i am actually a girl.......

See....i DO have copies.....which i use ONLY For home....and yes....sometimes i will play a legal disc someone brings me....but....and again. .......to each his own. I would NEVER tell anyone how to run their show....because......It's THEIR business...not mine.

there really is no winner in this debate because each person has a right to how they want to do it. As long no one interferes with my right to run my show how i see fit.....i won't tell anyone how to do theirs. Let me tell ya....that was one of the scariest and freakiest things to EVER happen to me. So.....anyone up for football?.....

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ASCAP, SESAC, BMI, KAPA, SPIN none are law enforcement, frankly they have to have a search warrant, and be accompanied by actualy law enforcement from the jurisdiction you are performing in to be able to do what they did melly.

They got away with it cause they buffalo'd you into thinking they had the legal right to look through your CD's - which they probably didn't

and ASCAP could care less if your music is legal, they get their fees just the same if it is downloaded, copied, stolen, bootlegged, or original pressed.


My motto: I don't dance on your table, don't set your drinks on my speakers.... and You can look through my CD's when i can look through your wallet.

yes i do have shirts that say those two sayings too, in addition to other ones

CM
Remember the thread that discussed rogue agents trolling around trying to extort cash out of KJs?

Hand them a phoney "ticket" and demand payment on the spot?

It's all BS these days.