Karaoke Forums

for those of you like Willr, who do private parties, weddings, etc... as long as the event is by invite only.... you are free to run as loose as you please... Because the event is not open to the public, no ASCAP, SESAC or BMI royalties need be paid, and illegal burnt/downloaded music is not an issue.... Why?? because it is happening on private property, any law enforcement would have to be called, and have a search warrant or be able to see something in plain view (underage drinking, fighting, drug use, etc..) to even be able to come onto that property....

No cop driving by a wedding reception hall is going to say "let's see if this DJ is legal", they could care less....... now they may stop and say "mr. DJ can you turn it down", and even at that point they cannot do a thing about it if all your CD's are burns and they can see them...... It is a civil matter, not a criminal matter..

The copyright owner would have to file a complaint and then have it run through the legal system

No cop driving by a bar is going to care either unless ordered to do so. BTW you have to be careful about repception halls. The can be considered private property with public access, such as malls etc.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Now that I think about it, every person I've ever heard of being busted for playing illegal cdg's (as well as downloaded mp3's) has normally been turned in by other dj's. Even the friend (who doesn't kj anymore but used to make copies of people singing and give it to them on cd) was turned in by another kj who was mad that they were losing business to him.

So sure, the cops probably won't bust you just by stopping in to a private party and telling you to turn down the music. I'd still rather not take the chance that this is a setup by some other dj who feels I take too much business away from them. Only original music for me, please.

I may be paranoid, but I can't afford the fines.

Will

I do not play burnt discs at my shows. I will play original manufacturer's discs.

This hasn't been a big problem because with over 10,500 tracks and this expanding monthly - I usually have what the singer is looking for.

Why don't I play burnt discs at my shows? Copyright infringement is one reason, but the real reason is one that no one here has touched on:

QUALITY.

I've yet to see a burned CDG that doesn't mess up the graphics on the screen or fade in quality quickly. There is a difference in the process and materials used in CD-R discs as compared to the manufacturer's discs which makes it more difficult for the standard players to read. This difference is visible when you look at the recording surface of the discs.

Will I upgrade my players so I can get one that reads the CD-R's better?

No. Why would I when they read the originals just fine.

Will this lose me clientele at my shows? It hasn't yet. My clientele has come to expect top quality music, sound and hosting. Anything less is not acceptable.

Just my $.02

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Karaoke is for those who love to sing regardless of ability.

I'll just put my head on a block today and wait for the kill.


I take the song I practised at home, might put in a key-change, put my favourites in the style that I like on a single disk and take that to the local karaoke bar. I have never had a single KJ being full of crap with all the above mentioned statements. My God, 90% of the statements made in this thread are about legal rights, and I'm sure 90% of the people making those statements do something illegal everyday!!!!!! Do you stop dead for 3 seconds at EVERY stop street you come across? Do you EVEr have a drink and still drive? Do you EVER take something from your employer, a pen, highlighter.......Stop being so bloody anal about a single point and should someone bring a burned disk to your show, it is their responsibility, not your's as holy KJ.


That is probably the stupidest statement I have ever read in my entire life. We don't all buy $0.35 CD's you know You might have 10,500 tracks, but do you have my favourite Smokie tracks or Cliff Richard tracks on SunFly/Zoom or any European music I like to sing? Well I do, and I'll copy them to my own custom disk, and if you don't like playing my disk, then I move on to a show who will! and trust me, there are more then enough KJ's in MO who will play my disk, have full shows and fun times. The uptight holy attitude of not playing my disk will not keep you in business.

So, before you all burn me on a stake, a KJ who makes a living with pirate CDG's is wrong, but a KJ who doesn't want to play a copy of my original is just full of it.

as much as I'd like to fry Heartland for their stance, I can't.

It's a big world out there, Allstar. If you go to a venue that won't support your stance, and that's if you bring in a copy, then go elsewhere, or go with what they have, or bring your original.

Lonman doesn't support cdrs either. But I have gone to his shows a couple of times.

But one point to make: If the manufacturers themselves aren't doing a single thing to stop Piracy, then what makes us wee lil' barns think we can do anything different. All you're going to do is alienate your customer base. The emerging home market is going have more and more of this type of scenario.

Allstar:

Hmm. Stupidest statement ever? Wow. Thanks! I thought I would never be the best at anything!

There are always different demands made by people at the shows and there will be hosts who support these demands. The majority of my clientele attend my show because they enjoy my style and the quality of show I produce.

There is, however, no pleasing absolutely everyone at all times. You may not attend my shows because I don't give in to your demands - neither will the people who demand that I crank the volume beyond the reasonable limits of the venue. This is why I'm not the only host in town. Different hosts cater to different clientele.

There are shows I won't attend because of varying reasons which include a sonic wall which makes it impossible to carry on a conversation anywhere in the room and a host with a personality that is incompatible with my own.

Somehow I don't think they're going out of business because they won't change to support my view of the 'perfect' show, either.


The demands you are making are akin to requesting Frank Sinatra tunes at a Metallica concert. It may be a perfectly reasonable request - but at the wrong show.

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Karaoke is for those who love to sing regardless of ability.

Gentlemen

I am not here to start an argument, I'm trying to stirr some different ideas. Firstly I am asking to stop this whole illegal debate. We have all done something illegal at some time, no matter who you are.

Secondly, I asked how many of you have some good old Smokie hits, because when I go out to a karaoke bar, that's what I want to sing. You don't want me to sing because you don't have the song You cannot have all the songs in the world, no matter how many CDG's you have.

This was not a personal attack, and hope you see it in the same light Heartland!

I still haven't seen any solid ground for the KJ's NOT playing my CD except the piracy issue which as KnightShow stated Again, I am not for piracy at all, what I am asking is, how will it hurt you by playing my CDG? and please give me a valid reaon!

I personally like it when people bring cdgs to my show. CDR or otherwise... if they like a certain version of a song, whether I have it or not, I could care less.

One lady, who's a local competitor who's semi-retired, has graced me with her presence many times. I love it when she comes to my show. And she always seems to hand me a lot of cds. Sometimes they're originals, and sometimes they're a copy. She handed me an original one time that I had in my system... she didn't trust the disc I had as it's an older, obsolete disc. Later she was pleased to see my copy was in fine shape. When I go digital later this year, it'll be more of the same.

But I didn't even care that she didn't trust my discs... many people don't take care of their discs, and don't copy them until it's much too late. Or never at all... then when it skips so bad it doesn't play, they try to replace it, or just delete it out of their books.

I copy to keep my originals intact, for my customers and my own investment... my customers are used to a certain show, one that they know when I put the disc in the machine, or later, when I double click a file, it'll be as close to flawless as possible.

I have NOTHING but respect for those that want to operate however they will, but don't reverse the situation and say that I'm a thief or that I'm operating illegally. Every disc in my show is mine... bought and paid for. What the manufacturers choose to tell me is nobody's business but mine and theirs.

I wouldn't even dream of that. I do the same, running Hoster, with the originals at home. No different then you playing with the copies while leaving the originals at home!
I'm sure glad to see that I'm welcome at your venue KnightShow :D

Don't worry. I don't take anything said or written on these things personally.

My valid reason for not playing your copied CD-G was stated. Quality. I've yet to see one that was consistent or good enough to be in my show. That is not to say they don't exist... I just haven't seen them and I'm not willing to take the chance.

As far as copyright goes, I can safely say that if you can prove you own the original by showing it to me in your case next to the burn, then I'm still likely to ask for the original because of my findings of quality. As far as old Smokie tunes, I've never heard of the artist so I highly doubt that I do have it.

This is where my website comes in. I have created a web application which allows the users to preview my entire songlist ahead of time. They can flip through every listing including doubles - so they can see there's more than one choice if one sucks - and they can build their own list from my set complete with notes for each song regarding raising or lowering key, which version is better, whatever. The key is experimentation. I stopped telling them which is better because my tastes are not theirs.

I also have, on the site, a request form the users can fill out to request songs not in my list. If I can find the song, I add it to my list because some of the lesser-known songs can make a show that much better because your listeners don't have to hear the same standards over and over again. (And no, I don't mind if I have double listings on the site because I enjoy having one to fall back on if the copy listed in my book stops working.)

So rather than rehash your side of the argument, I pose this question: With everything that I do for my shows, including my commitment to buy the music my audience wants to sing (Right down to the exact manufacturer and disc number if specified) and my searchable website which allows the singer to customize their own subset of my list for their use... and my online request form which I pay very close attention to...

Can you give me one good reason why I SHOULD play your burnt disc?

If you can't wait for me to get it in stock *Usually a week, no more than a month* and you still insist that I should play your burnt disc, I then would consider it a wildly unreasonable request. If you HAVE to sing the song THAT VERY NIGHT and ONLY then and your entire enjoyment of my show hinges on this... then you won't enjoy my show.

It's that simple.

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Karaoke is for those who love to sing regardless of ability.

Any backup burn i've made plays perfectly, no garble, but then I try to use a good quality blank.



Personally i'd rather not be responsible for using a customers original - ESPECIALLY if it's an out of print disc which is becoming more common these days, if they claim you damaged their original. If a back-up gets damaged, OH WELL, they own the original right?

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

To Heartland

. Thank you!


Smokie is a big European band. I am a highly active traveller, and would be unfair to expect you to buy a Zoom disk for a once in a while karaoke fan. One good reason to play my burned disk? Satisfied customer who will spread the word.

As Lonman stated, to which I agree,

As to Lonman

I myself advertise "bring your own disk, but it's NOT my liability if anything goes wrong! I expect the same treatment from you. If you damage my disk, I'm out of a Dollar, or even less if I buy a 100 disk roll.

I have something similar posted, but I would still feel bad if I did accidently scratch or damage someones disc - especially an original. If it were an original that gets damaged, then I would try to get it replaced - provided it's still in print. I won't spend $250 to replace your Sound Choice 8125 disc. If you don't bring a back up of something like that, then it's your own fault!

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

If you are a regular to my show and you want a disc from a manufacturer I don't normally shop... OF COURSE I WILL BUY IT!

Why the heck wouldn't I? This is customer satisfaction.

And on the legal side of things consider this anecdote:
(I'm also a licensed mechanic)

A local police officer came into my shop and explained that he's having a problem with his car when he hits speeds of 160KM/H. The maximum posted limit anywhere in my part of Canada is 110KM/H.

This problem didn't occur anywhere near the posted speed limits.

When he was asked "Does this give me the authorization to take your vehicle above the speed limit?" he said no.

To which we replied, "Then no. We won't be able to fix your car."

Did we serve the customer? No, Not really. But why try when the request is so unreasonable? I'm not going to risk the price of the fine just to satisfy a client. In the above case, I would never find the problem if I couldn't duplicate the condition. I couldn't duplicate the condition without risking a rather hefty fine. Therefore, I didn't take the job.

Have I ever exceeded the speed limit myself? Sure I have - but it was MY risk to take. I will not take the risk for someone else.

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Karaoke is for those who love to sing regardless of ability.

Again I wouldn't want to be responsible for handling someones original that's out of print.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

This is lunacy. Just because you aren't allowed to break the law you refused to work on a car. I've done plenty of troubleshooting online for friends (I've done plenty of work as a mechanic over the years - including in my dad's shop while growing up). In many of those cases I was unable to see/experience the problem but could make recommendations to resolve the problem. Admittedly, you won't know if it's fixed - you'd have to ask them to reproduce the problem to avoid putting you at risk. If you 'require' experiencing the problem to fix the problem you could ask them to reproduce the problem with you in the car as a passenger.

However, I fail to see how this applies to a show. Just because you can't determine if a disc is legal or not doesn't mean you should refuse service. I will play any disc in good condition that comes to my show - provided I don't already have the track from the same manufacturer (in which case I let them know I have it already). When I get a CD-R that's obviously from home I give them that 'Arrrggghhhh, this aint shared booty is it?' look and simply say "I'll play this. But for peace of mind please bring the original in the future or keep proof of purchase available if we're raided". They usually laugh - because they know if they're legal or not. If they're not legal they usually stop bringing in discs, if they are they bring the originals or some way to prove ownership - and usually wave it at me when they bring up the disc. While I take the disc the first time I make note of the manufacturer, artist and song and usually purchase it myself within a week or two at which point I don't need their disc anymore. It means I keep regulars happy by buying what they want to sing and I keep one time patrons happy by playing what they bring. It also helps keep pirates out of my shows because they know I don't condone piracy.

BTW, the raided comment hits home since we had a club shutdown recently for failure to have properly licensing. No matter how rural you think you are they will shut you down if you're not legal eventually.

On a side note - just because I speed doesn't mean I steal. Even though I've participated in copying massive quantities of software in the past (I was in high school - it was Commodore 64 software) I would NEVER use an illegal copy for a show - software or CDG because I insist my business play above the board. I tell my cleints that I use only purchase CDG's from major manufacturers and that the quality of my library is very important to me as it should be important to them. I invite them to review my book and check any disc I have to see if it's legal. Any custom CDG's I have I keep the invoice for proof of ownership. BTW, I tell them to ask anyone else they talk with about a show to make the same offer.

Admittedly, I am in a quandry because a show I attend regularly is using burned copies in their library - and no, they're not legal because it's the only library they have. I know this because it's not often you see someone with SGB discs that have printed white labels and an occasional song missing. Not all of them are burned - but I'd say 1/4 of the library is. The people that run the show are my friends but where do you draw the line?

okay, you want intelligent conversation?

Why SHOULDN"T you trust them for merely using software that allows you the ability to create a backup of a valued disc.

We're not talking a walmart Shania best of disc, BJC. We're talking a disc that's high priced normally, and could be an irreplacible disc.

For you to make the leap of intelligence that it's a copied media that the ownership is questionable is laughable, and downright unintelligent.

Just because I can go online and download thousands of mp3+cdg's illegally, burn then to disc, and use them in my show or someone elses doens't mean that I or anyone else will.

Yes, piracy is rampant. Yes, there are plenty of multiriggers running illegal libraries. The majority of the people I see and know at karaoke buy discs to use. I see occasional CDR's but these are people that also have 15-20 originals they bring with them most weeks. Are they pirating this one disc? I don't know - and don't care. I let them know they should be able to provide proof of purchase (by showing the original) if asked, but I'm not going to 'make' them show me before playing the disc. I'm not in law enforcement - I'm in entertainment.

By telling them to be prepared to show proof if asked is due diligence - a simple reminder that they should buy thier discs - not pirate them - from a friend to a friend.


BTW - someone brings me a disc - I examine it for any damage and then it goes in a jewel case or my player. It comes out of the player it goes back to them the minute my next signer is up. CDR or unreplaceable disc doesn't matter. They are treated as good or better than my own discs.