Karaoke Forums

Just a thought I'm having.

It was changed to "anonymous" ranking so that the ranks would maybe be more "fair". Does anyone think this is happening? I certainly don't. I think it has been used for revenge ranking, for whatever reasons those "revenge rankers" may have- and those doing it wont even step up to the plate & say why they are giving low ranks. I don't think the "anonymous" ranking was meant to be used this way.

I mean- to give someone a 7-8- or 9 (or even lower) I think a reason should be pointed out as to WHY you are ranking that way. But, only very, very rarely is anyone even giving constructive critisism at all. I have seen quite a few subs that are absolutely awesome- singing AND mixing. It will have glorious comments, and a rank of (example only)....say a 9.6 . It leaves the singer wondering what the problem was. And.......... you quickly come to the conclusion that someone did it for spite. It's very obvious, in fact, since they don't want it known that they gave the low rank.

This anonymous situation has created nothing but more bad feelings and animosity on the web site. To newcomers we must look like a bunch of petty idiots. And that may sound rude, but if I were on the outside looking in that's certainly what I would think. It's like a late night soap opera on here with the big deal about numbers, and who ranked who with what rank.

Some people truly want honest critique - as a fellow singer, I understand that. But it's just not going to happen.

Recently this lowball has been thrown into my court. Three people have been given my sign on I.D. and password just to prove that the low ranks were not from me. (and the ranking on the songs they had stayed the same, so they knooooow it wasn't me) It has been made to look like (wether purposely or accidental) that I am one of the culprits doing it. WHY??- well, I guess I don't know exactly. But...... what in the heck would I gain? I have absolutely NOTHING ranked on my subs. My "member rank" is at "0" and will remain that way. I suppose one of these petty people think laying suspicion elsewhere would be the way to go.

It would be nice if we could openly rank the "just for fun" subs, and save this "anonymous" thing for the "contest" subs. So that those of us here truly for FUN can have some- without all the other garbage. I mean, getting a bunch of unfair "10"'s because people didn't want to "be rude" was not causing as much trouble as this anonimity is.

Not trying to "step on toes", those revenge rankers know who they are. I would like to hear people's thoughts on this. It's been spoken of often enough- it's getting to be a dull subject- so I say we need to eliminate the reason for having to bring it up at all.

And, one more word to the person telling others to ".........watch out for Blue, she can be mean........" . Get a life already, this website does not revolve around you. Enough is enough already, you're acting like a spoiled brat who wants the extra cookie. And it's obvious.

Going to listen to some subs now....... peace everybody!!

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

Hey!

I can see your point and how these guys can get to you.

You just have to remember that there are lots of people who know you and respect you, and know that you are not like that.

You will always get people who try to ruin it for others

Just remember that you do have a lot of friends here who will always back you up

I am like you....I don't rank. As far as I am concerned, everyone deserves a 10 for the time and effort they spend on their subs.

To me it is like karaoke, you support everyone. Only disrespectful people are the ones who boo and snicker in the background.

I know you, and I respect you

BSS - Wow!

First, some book

Second, I received your PM about various items - that left me thinking.

Now, as for Ranking Anonymous or not. I understand your point and that of many others. Now my 2cents (for what its worth)

The management and I talked back in forth on this very point, however we made the final decision to only show the overall rank - with us having the ability to see who ranked what. Thus far we haven't noticed any real "revenge" or "bash" rankings.

Yes, some people may be getting lower ranks than they want but hey - I feel that some people are very generous.

Let me state that I think everyone on here should be applauded for even submitting. That takes guts to put your songs out there for others to critique, comment on, rank, or even just listen to them.

I also feel that receiving a 5 is a good rank. No one should feel ashamed or upset at receiving that level. Anything above that - all the better.

A "5" is an average performance. Simply that means that you did the song well and only had a few problems. Certainly if someone gives a five they should point out what the singer can do (in their opinion) to improve.

Anything below a "5" means the singer has some work to do but keep at it. By all means offer suggestions to these people.

A level "6, 7 or 8" means that you did an above average, good, or very good job respectively with very few if any errors or problems. The person who provides this rank, may want to offer some suggestions.

A "9" The singer performed outstandingly well - not perfect but dang close.

A "10" Absolute Perfection! This person is tremendously talented. You will note that I rarely if ever will give anyone a 10. Same as I have never met or seen a "10" female! Currently I am with one that is definitely a 9+ but a "10" hmmm...

Now don't take any of this the wrong way but I (again just my opinion) feel that this is the way things are or should be. Some (many) may not agree with me - that is fine. I am just throwing it out there...

Phill

I await your hate mail

I have to agree,,alot of the best singers here on SS are getting lower scores.It's just as obvious to me.I didnt like the annonymous rating to begin with.I still dont. If there were another vote....Id vote the same way as I did last time,to be able to see the ratings,only because if someone feels I am lacking in whatever area,and chooses to rate it accordingly..I want to know what it was that swayed them to vote that way,because If I can improve a song,I will certainly try. I think its a wonderful feature SS has,in being able to rank a performance,,but hey................
WOULDNT IT ALSO BE WONDERFUL TO GET AN EXPLAINATION?

Its easy,to not have to cross that bridge while annonymous,
but Ill tell ya,it doesnt help out the singer at all,when they are racking their brains trying to figure out just what was wrong with the submission.
Sigh...,Id much rather be able to see the scores...and be able to take advantage of the critique.Be it good or bad. Those are my thoughts I guess. Looking forward to the thoughts everyone has one this.

I think a lot of people look at the rankings sort of like figure skating is judged: you start off with a theoretically perfect score, and then points are deducted whenever a mistake is made. Because of this whenever any rank below 10 is received, they want to be pointed to a specific error or area of improvement they can focus on. In this thread we have complaints that a song had an average rank of "only" 9.6!!

I don't see it that way. Some people just sound better than others, and the people doing the ranks will always prefer some singers over others even if they can't point to a specific reason why. I rank songs less than a 10 if I think it could sound better, but it doesn't do the singer any good if I add a comment saying, "That's a good job, but if your voice sounded like somebody else's it would be better." That's not helpful. If I have a more constructive criticism I'll state it, but just because I can't pinpoint why a song isn't perfect doesn't mean I have to give it a 10.

What I think is so ridiculous is that so many submissions here are really, really good--I've given out mostly 9s so far, and a few 10s--yet most of the complaints about the rankings come from the people who are the best singers and who get the best rankings.

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Reward: nine yen in drawer.

First of all, PHILLl: Sorry about the "book" again. I tend to be kinda long winded at times.

I never said a "5" would be unfair. But, nobody goes by those figures. I think generally anything less than a "7" goes unused.

If your hinting I'm "overgenerous", I'll take that with a grain of salt. I know you've looked at how I've ranked people. But I LOVE music- it can make me calm down, freak out, go to sleep, wake up,fall in love, wanna beat somebody, make me close my eyes to listen, make me have to get up & dance while listening, etc- - you get the point. So if I hear a song that just spurs emotions in me like that because it's so awesome- heck yeah I'll give a "10". And, I don't like to critique or be a critic, so if it doesn't kick me hard, or I think it is missing the mark- I just don't rank. I don't wanna hand out 8's & 9's. That's my choice though.
and.......ps.......gonna tell your girlfriend what ya said about the "10"

Thank you for your input though. I trust in you & the other moderators to run the site how you see best. (doesn't mean we all have to agree, but I still trust ya to make the best decisions for the sake of all).

TOM EATON: By using "9.6" as an example- I meant it this way: If a song has a total of 10 comments and has a say 9.6- that could mean that 9 people gave a 10, and one person gave a 6. Or....... it could mean 8 people gave a 10 & two people gave an 8. It could mean alot of different things. But when you have all ten comments saying "perfect...awesome....flawless.....blah,blah,blah" I'm sure the singer is baffled- by using the numbers figures I said above. They would be confused as to exactly how low one person gave them, or wondering if alot of people gave a lower rank than 10. And NO COMMENTS to give them a clue. I was not implying to have a 9.6 is a bad thing- I'd feel proud to have that rank if I was allowing ranking. But without proper commenting it can confuse. I'm glad you picked that apart, I needed to clarify what I meant. Sometimes a singer does a very good job, but if I just think I could hear it done better- that's where I definately don't rank.

And it is all the good singers who are open to ranking who seem to be questioning this, they are the ones getting ranked low now and wondering why. And getting no answers.

TAMMY: I think we're of the same mind on this. Thank you for replying.

RITISROO: Thank you for stepping in to say what you did, it is appreicated. I too am here for the fun of this place and applaud all who even try- singing together can bring out the best in people. (can I said) TY

Sure hope I don't get charged any extra for the webspace I'm taking up- sorry for the length of these posts. I just can't get out what I have to say any quicker than that.

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

Anonymous ranking does nothing to add validity to ones idea of how a submission stacked up on a one to ten scale. You do not even have to be a great singer to know when people are out of pitch and timing..lacked emotion or just did not put the UMPH ..that the song required to pull it off perfectly. I personally see most of my subs as 7-9 and that is being pretty egotistical.

I still say if you rank below a nine you really should give a good reason for it...give that artist something to work on. On the flip side, the singer needs to get a little thicker skin and learn how to take constructive criticism..and use it. I am not perfect...actually I do not think that I know anyone who is, however, I know that I have achieved a much higher level quality to my subs than I had a year ago. This is due to constructive criticism...and the desire to learn how to mix as a hobby on my home computer.

I hardly ever hear a singer on here that is not a good singer. I give alot of 9s and 10s and a few 8s, but that is rare. I used to tell why when I ranked under a 10, however, some feelings did seem to get hurt so I stopped. I came here to enjoy what I do..not end up in drama over numbers. Been there..done that I havent seen any revenge ratings, mostly everyone has tens and nines.

oh..and I find the MOST IMPORTANT quality of a song that I rank on is not the mix or the vocals even..or the pitch or timing..but the originality the singer brought to the piece by singing it his or her way rather than mimicking the original artist. Just FYI kind of stuff

Good luck Phil..this is one issue that will never be completely resolved..but you already have the best feature in place ... the choice of whether or not to be ranked.

BSS -

I was only joking with you about the "book" - It is important that you are able to express yourself and if it needs that many words to clarify your position - No problem. I do the same all the time

I wasn't referring to you about being "generous" but now that you brought it up...

As far as my "girlfriend"* she knows how I feel - she agrees! Go figure? At least there is one agreeable woman in my life

* She really hates that whole "girlfriend" name thing too - says we are to old to be boyfriend and girlfriend. She turns 40! this weekend... [Was I supposed to say that?!] I, on the other hand, am only 29 (That's my story and I'm stickin' to it! - So what I have a son 16, a daughter 14 and a son who turns 12 this weekend also! I started young! okay, I'll say 39 - better?!)

** Good thing she doesn't read these forums! Whew!

Okay, for KASS: This is not a "rank fairly" topic. I meant this as an "Explain you rankings" topic.

I personally see nothing wrong with an 8- or 7- or 6. Or, if a person really feels it's deserved- less than that. If they can say "Hey, I gave you this & this is why."

Rankings will never be what anyone considers "fair", but we are not professional singers OR professional critics. So fair is as fair does as far as I'm concerned. It's a matter of the listeners' personal opinion. It's just a rip that singers who are ranked are left to wonder what they could have done to have gotten a better score. Nobody tells them.

And everyone can use their own system of scoring, actually everyone does. Nobody measures it the same. Off key/off timing are obvious, but there are a ton of other things people factor in.

Personally, I would never think " This person sang absolutely PERFECT, but they sound just like the original version so I'll rank them lower." Karaoke is not meant to be a "Try to make a new style of this song" type of thing. Neither do I think you need to sound like the singer to sing a song. But if a song is a good one, and someone can do it upright exactly as it was meant to be sang, I say bravo to that singer. Especially when they can do that in a few different genres with different singers stuff. That takes talent.
I try to sing most stuff as close as I can to the original singer- why mess with a good thing? If it's something I'm yearning to learn, then I must have liked the way it goes. So I wouldn't change it on purpose. My voice does that usually on it's own, cause I have a different sounding voice. But I do try to sing songs in the "style" they were created in.
On the flip side, I've heard people changing a song to make it their "own" and really liked their version. Depends on the song/how it's sang/who's singing it/etc.

And I agree- this issue will never be completely resolved at all. I've read every post in here concerning ranking, and there will be more after mine.

PHIL- - Was only joking back about the "book". If I thought you didn't like it, I wouldn't be on chapter 3 already.

Was kidding about your g/f too. Wish my hubby would class me a 9. Now I'm gonna have to ask him. *LOL*

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

Okay now that you bring it up...

Fair rankings, hmmm...

You know how I'm a numbers freak
- let's see what I can come up with.

---
Okay you first take the rank provided by each person who provided one.
Then you calculate in the total number of comments for that submission.
Oh and then you have the number of times the songs been listened to.

Right, now the total number of songs submitted by that person.
Take the average of those total submissions (based on the items above)

Now you have to consider all submissions entered and configure their averages (again based on the same factors as above)

This should create a sliding scale which will then be the determing factor as to what the actual rank of the song should be as compared "fairly" to the others submitted...
----

Give me a few days to figure that!

{Yeah right!}

I FOLD

me too..... Its a no win thing ...but hey...a bit ago...I went on my subs and clicked No ratings on them ya know in (edit)....and it did take the scores away on the main page....
but.......I noticed...they remain on the page that has all my subs..ummm..wonderin if this is a glitch?

and if it is a glitch,does that mean that anyone at anytime can turn OFF the ratable subs (like I just did) and turn them on again...(I havent tried that) but....if this is the case....you all gonna hate me for this one.....here it goes.........
A person can wait..till they see they have all tens,
and click the ratings tab off. ANd yet...it would appear..those
scores given still remainned...

<<- quickly runs off to avoid stoneing,large tomatoes,and old heads
of cabbage.

(psst,,phil,I think this is a glitch)....

Tammy , that is funny. I think I understand what you are saying. So someone could be ranked until they get a 10 & then stop letting it be ranked anymore? Cause ranking option would be closed but they'd have a number. Ah hah......so wer'e on to anyone who dies that. *LOL*

Wouldn't everyone know that they did this?

Cause actually I tried 'what seems like' the same thing. I had unintentionally left one open for ranking and I was ranked by the time I realized it. I tried to edit it thinking the ranks would leave, they didn't- so I just deleted the song altogether.

Nobody should throw cabbage heads & tomatoes at ya for that, it was an honest observation.

I'm getting a huge headache from this whole bunch a junk. And headaches make me wanna sing low keyed slow, sad songs- and I'm no good at those. So I'm gonna try really hard to ignore my own topic guys.

I write too much anyhow, look at those stinkin' notebooks up there!

Peace & harmony everyone........ and rythm & rhyme.........

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

You brought up point that needed to be addressed no need to apologize for that. And if someone is using the anonymous ranking system to be a jerk then it takes away from the purpose and fun of this site. I hope everyone can get past the whole ranking problem and get on with making beautiful music. You guys are all tens in my book even though I don't like the ranking thing much at all. I do appreciate the comments and the critiqe as I'v pointed out before.

On a personal note.........

I'm mixing my own sub sthis week and I f you think you can give me some pointers please do. My sound quality is deteriorating fast. My last sub sounded like I was singing in a can.

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Too soon old......too late smart.

We could have a rating system like is used in some of the olympic competitions whereby the highest and the lowest scores are discarded, with the song ranking being the average of the remainder (I must sound like pythagorus). I'm sure if it's one person causing the problem, their rating would be the lowest and would be discarded. I'm also sure that someone as switched on as our Phil could write a program to do the discarding automatically. Blue, please don't get disillusioned, you have many, many friends here and they far outweigh any individual, who for whatever reason wants to bring others down to their level.

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Those who bring sunshine to others cannot keep it from themselves  
Snoopy

Tammy - I've seen a couple of people use the 'no more ranking' tactic to lock-in a good score. CHEESEY to say the least. And SO obvious. The only thing that bugs me is "how stupid do they think we are anyhow".

Snoopy - I like the olympic scoring method idea very much. If we ever get to a point where ranking has real meaning...that really should be implemented.

Blue - Peace right back at you. You go sing and have a blast --- We will be listening with smiles!!!

Blue, you shouldn't give out your account information to anyone. The ones pressuring you to do this are really sick individuals. If someone feels like accusing you because they only got 9.6 and you are a "suspect" then they really should get off this website. Because this/these individuals obviously think all their songs are 10s and they are the best singers in the world.

I agree with Webguru. If you have an average of 9.3, then it is pretty much AWESOME and you should be extremely happy. I think the anonmous system was put in place so more honest ranks could be put in place, because before this 50% of all songs were 10s and the scores needed to go down to a realistic level. The sad thing is that if you look at the 1st page on singersshowcase RIGHT NOW, probably 75% are 10s and then on top of it and still that is not good enough for some of the singers.

I suspect that some of the singers got "used" to getting 10s even if they sang flat, off key, not suitable voice, lack of umph etc and then all their friends were telling them how awesome they were and in their minds they were thinking "oh my god, I am an awesome singer and all my songs should be 10s"

Also I agree with Tom Eaton here. This is not Ice Skating..you do not start with a 10 and then deduct points for faults. You can sing perfectly in key, timing etc, super studio quality mix, that doesn't mean that you should automatically get a 10.

My final suggestion is that ranking gets taken out completely, because some of the singers here can not handle it if they get anything else but 10s and I think that this website should promote a friendly and encouraging enviroment where revenge ranking, demands of accountibility are all thrown out. Maybe it is more fair that way, because ranking is just a matter of opinion anyways.

Sorry, can't seem to "stay out of this topic" like I thought I was going to - .

WANNABE: Thanks, you are right in what you say. It would be nice if we could all get over this ranking issue- it just seems to keep popping back up. I think it has also gotten worse. But......... to each his own I guess. As long as rankings are "anonymous" people will continue to rank as they please (for honesty or spite) , and others will continue to be upset.

You have always asked for honest critique, and I hope some give you that and not just a low number with no reason to back it up. I myself would never critique on mixing unless it's an obvious mix error, cause I am not very good at it. So I wouldn't know what kind of advice to give. Songs that are too loud to others usually sound PERFECT to me, . But that's the way I personally like my music to sound. I'm sure your mixing will be fine.

SNOOPY: That is exactly how fiddling competitions are scored, as well as some karaoke contests. Both highest & lowest are discarded at the end of scoring. Makes it more fair, nobody can rank their enemies low or their friends high, for fear that their score will be the one thrown out.
But, I don't think it could work here. Because our rankings are not given by a "certain amount" of judges and then stopped. I mean it could be averaged & highest/lowest thrown out, but then when someone comes along later & gives another rank, how would it be averaged? Could work though, and it would be kinda cool. PHIL??????
And thank you- I'm not disillusioned, just don't want others to be that way about me.

OP: I plan on singing more- - probably alot more than you'll wanna hear. Could never stop that. You just keep on yodeling yourself, cause that was awesome. Thank you.

CEREALSINGER: Nobody pressured me to do that- I just wanted to prove my point to those with doubts that it was NOT me. It was my idea to do it, nobody asked me to. But, yeah, I don't wanna have to change my password anymore. *lol*
And maybe the 9 point somethings are just too new for people, that is still an awesome score. But if you look in my post above- averaging how a 9.7 could be received- that is my point. If you think one person gave you a 7 or 8 you need to know why they did. Nobody is giving any constructive critisism. Heck, I subbed a song- with NO ranking, and people WERE honest with me. And I believe it was because I did not ask for numbers, just comments. I was flat told it was not a good song choice for me, by more than one person, and I appreciated that honesty. Now I know.
Thank you for your input.

Now I'm off to sing while the kids are not making a bunch of noise, .

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

No ranks given , No ranks accepted . to me THIS IS NOT A CONTEST. However I do appriciate the comments from all of the knowledgeable people that I've met here ( You've been a great help for me , thank you all.).....
When I first started going to Karaoke shows it seemed you couldn't find a show that didn't have contests , if not at every show at least once a week. those rarely worked either and I never competed in them because of the same bad feelings that these contests inevitably instill in some of our friends and family. I almost never see these contests anymore at any of the local clubs that I frequent. why ? , you tell me haha. I won't compete in live band contests either ,(unless the judges are independant and have nothing to gain from their scores.) thanks to all. and please keep sharing your talents for us all to enjoy on the S.S.

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Gotta' Sing , Gotta' Sing !!!

I'm really glad to be a part of this website for one very BIG reason...
You comment on the songs I submit...I use those comments when choosing songs to sing for Karaoke Night at my favorite hangouts.
Why? Well...because some of the rotations are sooo long...that I may only be able to sing 2 songs....I want those songs to be something that people would like to hear. In essence, you are my guinea pigs,

When I submit a song for you to hear, I honestly try to give you what is, in effect, my personal best effort, I wouldn't want to insult you by giving anything less....it probably does not get any better than what you hear...I know all the mistakes in each and every song I sing...but to tell you the truth...I can't fix them.....no matter how hard I try....that is just the way it is....and my hubby will tell you, I REALLY AM MY OWN WORST CRITIC...

Therefore, I read the comments to see if a particular song will or will not fly....and particularly with WHICH GROUP of people it will fly...since so many of you have varied likes and dislikes. Never before have I been able to have the opinions of such a widely, differing opinionated group of people all in the same place. I take into account your age group and location and my observations of your musical tastes when you leave opinions on my songs.

This IS, WAS, and ALWAYS WILL BE the thing that matters most to ME.
Critiquing me to tell me how to get better, in all honesty, doesn't help me because if you listened to something I sang...it was already the best I could do...whether you think so or not, it was indeed the best product that I am ABLE to give...whether you feel I could've done it better is beside the point. Ranking has never mattered to me, either..it never will...I don't kid myself into thinking my songs are perfect, they aren't...and I certainly don't want/need people to feel that they have to be accountable for their scoring. In fact, awhile back, I opted to keep the ranking off of my subs altogeher and then I read that people didn't LIKE THAT either!!! Go Figure!

I will say this tho, the ice-skating analogy keeps coming up....in the end...
the skater(after giving their all, their best) must sit, with a camera trained on their faces and ACCEPT the scores of the judges WITHOUT question.

All in all, you are a really great group of people...totally encouraging and completely supportive of me....for this, I THANK YOU!

But really and truly, the only time that this website disappoints me is when this topic comes up.

/HUGS
Emma

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In front of a mirror with a hairbrush in my hand...SING!!!!!