Karaoke Forums

Neo how ya doing honey when are we next gonna duet?

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Golf might've been doable assuming I was willing to follow some basic rules..  
I might be doing the same thing and shooting myself in the foot with singing too Billy.

So I need instruction to find out whether or not I'm making something doable, impossible.

Neo.  I'm going to take actual instruction.  I need somebody to watch me, I'm not going to try to teach myself anymore... I'd rather pay an instructor to let me know what I can't figure out.


If it is that simple,  It's my insistance on emulating those I like, that I have no ability to clone.  Select songs I want to do, but not songs I should be doing.. as you stated..

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

   I can understand that...  :handshake:

I'm glad that you are going to take instruction and wish you much luck with it.

Doing alright I guess, & Soon I hope.  :hug:

define soon  LMAO dont make me stick pins in a doll  

_________________
"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

One day is as a thousand years....

Steven.....Help!!!!!

ah never mind....
I deleted them, they served there purpose and I learned a few things!  :yes:

Thanks...

Hi Steve,


I saw this topic and thought you might be interested in what I'm using to improve singing. Its all explained at this link:

http://www.guitarnoise.com/forums/viewt ... 90078aa9ad

There a link in that thread to some stuff on esnips.

if you want to talk about it just email me at russmarano@remconsult.com, or we can talk here if you want dont matter to me.

You sound better than I did when I started this singing/guitar deal at age 53 in 2003. Didn't happen on this method till August 2005. Where you can play instruments, its perfect to use one of em when your singing. I had to learn guitar and singing at the same time...argh!...

but then again maybe you think my singing sucks so then in that case forget this ...

russ

Russ,   I can't access the topic without joining the site.. Also you're Email didn't post. This site scrambles Email addresses.  Looks like an interesting site however.  I'll join when I have more time

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

My email is russmarano at remconsult dot com

OK, here's the text within the topic for ya

Hello everyone....

I thought I'd let you know what I'm doing to learn to sing....and I started out completely out of tune to say the least!...maybe this will help out someone....this singing method was developed by Eugene Feuchtinger back in the 20's.

For me, imagining this and that to accomplish singing just wasn't working. I'm an engineer and telling me to sing in my head voice or chest voice (there just simply is no such thing as either one of those) just doesn't make sense to me cause my vocal cords aren't in those places...I mean I dont have vocal chords in my chest! I tried this and that system, SLS for 8 months, a bunch of others, ...nothin except lost voice at times and zero improvement. ..anyway, one day I happend onto the perfect-voice site.

My conclusion at this point is the perfect-voice method most definitely works as it is based on the physiology of your vocal mechanism. However, the book that is sold there is confusing to read and doesnt really get to the ABC of the method as the method is sprawled out over the whole manual. Anyway i found it none the less exactly accurate in medical description of the parts of your body involved with singing.

In a nutshell, this method teaches first the human anatomy of how singing is accomplished. Then it tells you how to train that anatomy to produce successful singing. This made sense to me cause I was dealing with real and physical things, not imagine this or that.

Here's the brief...the hyo-glossuss muscle (under your tongue) contracts (evidence of this is a groove in your tongue especially in the rear..the groove has no value to how you sound) and sets in motion other muscle events that eventually cause your vocal chords to stretch much more than the cricoid muscle could ever stretch them. This brings into play much more of your vocal chord and thus your voice sounds better and with ring/overtones (more material is vibrating). Also, this pulls your voice box up against your spine and you get more resonation of your voice.

On the perfect-voice website, view the animation (menu pick on the left) and you will see exactly the action and the wrong action. It takes a bit to get to understand the anatomy, but repetition helps out much. Also on the site, the DVD for 40.00 will aid greatly. I've viewed it hundreds of times and find I had missed major points from previous views, so repetition is the mother of learning always. Its a three way action; the hg contracts; the palate is held down; the uvula contracts a bit. You need to train certain muscles to work and others to not work is the main area of getting it right, but your goal is the three way muscle action.

Here's something that really helps out a lot for more instant "how to do it". If you put your index finger tip in your mouth and just rest your teeth on it, count slowly 1, 2, 3, etc. to 20 in falsetto (lower falsetto is best) and do it with NO MOVEMENT OF YOUR JAW...your teeth should never rise above or bite into your finger....your pronounciation at first will be terrible but dont move your jaw. You'll notice this forces the mid and back of your tongue to do the work (pronounciation), in other words, it forces your vocal attack to initiate with the hg muscles (remember that all muscles are in a pair, one on either side of the tongue, palate, etc). As time goes on, and I mean months of time, your falsetto will get very firm and your pronounciation will be more exact. Also, saying "ng" locates the exact spot your voice should originate from, your attack point. Say the word "sing", then say it without the si and in falsetto. I go "ng", "one", "ng", "two", in falsetto and pronouce slowly, like "sev-en". Anyway, doing this forces the correct muscle action of, and strengthens, the hg (the falsetto causes the hg to work hardest). It also forces the correct action of the palate (which should be held down when singing) and the uvula. I'm leaving out a lot of info here to keep it simple but studying the manual/DVD and website animation will tell you what you need to know. You also need to separately train your tongue to form the groove without moving throat muscles (your cricoid bone should not rise or fall when you make the groove) or the soft palate (should not rise), and it can be done cause I've done it, it took me about 3 months to get it right. You first learn to make the groove, then make it and dont move the cricoid, then make it and dont move the criocoid or the palate.

The first benefit for me was I stopped losing my voice, which used to happen on average once a month. The last time I lost it was for almost a 3 week stretch! Once I started the tongue groove exercises my voice loss was a thing of the past (have not lost it since August of 2005). Many others will tell you my voice has improved significantly over the past 1 1/2 years. But this method, like training to be a guitarist or piano player or whatever, requires daily practice and persistence. No pill can be swallowed and you're there...for my money you have to want to sing in the worst way to stay with this.

Also, you must sing with your speaking voice. As you HG strengthens, you're voice will improve by leaps and bounds, and it will be your own unique sound, not soundin like someone else.

There are no scales involved as scales only train your ear. If you have incorrect vocal action (basically thatz when you are using your muscles that you use to chew with to sing) then singing scales just keeps on using the wrong muscles. You need to learn correct vocal action first, practice practice practice till you get the vocal action right, then you can sing scales to train your ear with the correct vocal action. Now, singing scales with the right vocal action strengthens that action as well as trains the ear. You can have correct vocal action and still sing out of tune...

I care nothing about opera (the site is opera oriented) and sing only rock....I'm auctionmusic on singersshowcase if you want to have a listen. I'm not there yet but I'm always improving...I'm at the point where there are clearly ringing overtones in my voice more and more often (not all the time yet). Thatz one part of your training, is that you can sing a word from and hg attack, and the next word off the wrong muscle. Takes practice to get it right. But as time goes on and the hg attack is more frequent, your voice will sound most good and with no harshness.

As an engineer, and I needed concrete actual matter of fact method for singing. This is it hands down. I've studied this bit for bit and its most accurate.

Also notice I"ve not mentioned breathing or diaphram cause neither is all that important. very little breathe is required for loud singing with this method. And if the diaphram was so important, how come all the runners of the world are not the best singers as well...see...much of whatz taught just doesn't make sense, at least not to me.


Here's a common misunderstanding... how many of you think that spraying a throat spray in your mouth improves your singing?...if you say yes, then you dont know the most basic physiology of human anatomy, as you cannot coat your voice chords with a spray unless you inhale it (and you would choke and gage if you did), your voice box is in your breathing tube not your food tube. You spray and swallow, your chords get ZERO!....Drinking water HOURS before singing is the best way to prepare your chords. Water eventually gets to your chords but it does not splash over them as your drink (another common misnomer)....also avoid dairy products before singing, dont smoke or drink.

Hope this helps out....at any rate it is sure working for me but is a lot of work, not easy.....



russ

Here's some more info....

on esnips I have four files. Two are pdfs. One teaches you about the vocal organ and how it works (original Feuchtinger document). The second is an introduction to the tongue groove exercise (from Jaco's book which is really Feuchtinger's stuff) first 25 pages

the link is

http://www.esnips.com/web/RussMarano-Miscellaneous

I also included two clips from "talk" by Coldplay. The one titled "first try" was before the index finger exercises and in the middle of trying to get the tongue groove workin (notice I had to use falsetto). I was still not sure what was goin on and didn't have and entire grasp of what to do, I still wasn't able to do the tongue groove AND keep my soft palate down and not raising or lowering the criociod bone. The one titled "one year later" is how I sounded about 5 months ago actually. At this point I can make the tongue groove, keep the soft palate down, and not move my cricoid bone (all at the same time but only after doing the groove exercise for a few minutes, not correctly from first starting out... yet) You'll notice the "ring" and overtones in my voice compared to the first try, and I didn't have to use falsetto.

This method requires you to completely change the way you sing and is difficult at first, but if you want to do it you must be persistent and just keep at it everyday. Looking back I'm reminded of how much is was like when I first learned to ride a bike, only more difficult as I had to unlearn the way I had been singing and learn the new way. The changes dont happen in a day but they do happen as you stop using the wrong muscles (chewing) and start using the right ones. Just keep at it...


also, I would just purchase the DVD $40.00 from perfect-voice first. If you like what you see, then you can get the book from amazon much cheaper, i think its 19.95 there...again the book its tough to "get it" but if you read it over and over you'll eventually understand, at least thatz how it worked out for me...

If you're going to attempt this record yourself singing often and KEEP all the files so you can go back and compare. You don't really notice the changes till you play back the older files....


hope this helps out....

russ

some replys were



I'd really like to hear a few other opinions on this method, especially on the usefulness of the book/dvd combo. I'm not a natural singer, but I had a year of singing lessons and made great progress. I had to stop for financial reasons, and I'd like to continue working with a dvd program. This one costs $99, and before I put down the cash I'd like to hear what some other folks think about it.

Alternatively, if not this one, what dvd has helped you most? I sing country and country rock, if that matters.

Thanks!
Jersey Jack


Russ, I've started using the first 25 pages you posted on the tounge groove exercise and they've helped more than I could ever imagine...this is really unique. Could you possibly post the other part of the manual? I'd really appriciate it. This method has helped not just my singing but my speaking, interestingly enough.


this method is the correct way for your voice to work, so sure it will fix speech as well as singing, even fixes stuttering (which is the total and complete lack of use of the hg muscles, ie, a raised tongue in the back). Some can "get it" immediatly almost, others take longer (me raising my hand haha). But my own IMMEDIATE result was no more loss of voice, was truly amazing. You have to now learn how to make the groove without moving your cricoid bone. Put your index finger nail in the recessed, depressed area of the middle of your neck right at your breastbone and move it up a bit you'll feel a bone there,just below your larynx (a little hard to do at first) That is your cricoid bone, your thyroid bone sits on top of it. . Now make the groove and that cricoid bone should not move at all, completely still (when you can sing and not move this bone you have arrived) Next, make the groove and dont let your soft palate rise (you have to look in your mouth with a flashlight/mirror as you make the groove. Ok, now make the groove and dont let both move (finger on cricoid, other hand holds flashlight and observes groove and soft palate...now you've totally isolated the hg muscles (all vocal muscles are in pairs one on each side). The muscles you are trying to develop are actully the hyoglossus AND the chondroglossus (CG are futher in the rear) but they are together doing the same thing and will contract together. Remem they are paired so a muscle is on each side of your tongue (see any medical image)

Russ ascends soapbox:

Its like anything , you can train to do something or not. Everyone wants it fast fast fast these days, actually I think its always been that way. American Idol illustrates exactly what I'm talking about, so many contestants who think they can "dress up" and "strut their stuff" but cant sing at all, nada, nothing...yet are so self brainwashed, they actually think they can to the point of being insulted when told for-get-a-boud-it.... On British Idol, this guy, Paul Potts, a mobile phone salesman, gets up at the mike in a lousy suit, no tie, bad teeth, and announces he is here to sing opera. The judges look wide eyed at each other, but when he sings Nessum Dorma he totally brings the house down, wins the idol, has sold 2 million copies of his cd so far. Why?...cause he spent years learning and developing his voice. Personally I think he's using feuchtinger but keeps his secret in the closet.

I work as a software developer and have been on projects taking up to 5 years. So maybe this is an advantage to me others dont have as I'm used to some things taking a long time to acheive.


Russ falls off soapbox

Patrick, I cant give you copyrighted material. I found the entire manual on the net for 9.00 download but sorry just cant find where now. , but why not buy it from Amazon?... its only $20 and is worth a million for my money. Jaco, who put prof Feuchtingers stuff together (he was his student also) should get something for his work dont you agree?..I mean how would you like to go to work for a day and not get paid...same difference. I'm glad its working for you, dont quit and you'll go far. Do the index finger in mouth counting 1 to 20 in falsetto every day, even if only one time that day, I always do it when driving by myself (its annoying to others belive me ) as opposed to sitting down for a planned session. That triggers the correct three way action and you'll be amazed again in a few weeks when you'll start hearing the difference. When you do the counting, think of what you are feeling in your tongue. Now sing in falsetto with the index finger, again dont worry about pronounciation, this is a more advanced step. And dont move your lips, let your facial muscles just relax. Also, put your other finger under your chin where neck meets head and notice/feel the bulge out when you count. Thats the hyoid bone tilting down due to the contraction of the hg/cg muscles. This tilting down holds your thyroid bone below in place as the palato-pharyngie contract to tilt the thyroid, thus strecthing your cords. The PP cant contract properly if the soft palate is raised, thatz why you want to keep the soft palate down. Remem, any muscle contracts best when at it resting place. For example, take a step forward and keep that postion...no problem moving the leg initially...ok, now try to move the same leg that is stepped forward in the forward direction..not so easy now.....Also, keeping the soft palate down eliminates nasal singing as it keeps your nasal open. Most think that nasal singing is when you sing through your nose...nope...pinch your nose and sing and you'll be at max nasal sound. Nasal singing is the absence of sound coming from your nose.. You can barely say the letter "m" with your nose pinched. A raised soft palate blocks the nasal passage. I'm going to make a mp3 of me counting so you can hear it on esnips, I'll post here when its done. My falsetto started out very weak, and today is very strong but still has distance to go, it cant get too strong. Nowdays I feel like I'm singing off of a stone in the bottom of my mouth, singing is increasingly less effort, all proof my hg/cg muscles are becoming stronger all the time....

Please keep in touch how you're doing. I want to know more people who are trying this so can bounce ideas back forth....

russ

Heres a link to guidelines for this singing technique


http://www.purevoice.co.za/guidelines/page_01.htm

Russ,  Thanks much..

   After I set up a telescope I'll read the material..   Thanks much !

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".