Karaoke Forums

hi, on critiquing i feel that on any given day i will feel differently thus critique differently...

i can't see myself as a machine going down a list of do's and don'ts.
and for me personally i don't feel that a 10 is perfect in every sense of the word...
again depends on my mood at the time as to what perfect is...
i place a lot on emotions/feelings, if ur singing a sad heart felt song with tears running down ur cheeks, then the odds r i'll have the tears also...i don't care if you r off key, r timings a tad off...to me that's a 10....how can you ask for more out of a singer?  now all that depends on if i'm in a sappy mood, depends on a lotta things really but if everything is in line it's a 10 to me....

now if i listen to it again the next day i may just give it an 8 r 9...again my mood....
being honest to myself how can i do anything differently? does that make me a bad person to be judging? i don't no, but that's how i do it...

so many things come into play when critiquing....for  me anyway...i'm not a check list kinda guy....i wanna hear heart, i wanna hear energy on the songs that call for it....emotions/feelings on the songs that call for that...

1 person can read the lyrics to a song and feel it's a sad song where the next person may read the same lyrics and read something different, and in turn sing it differently....who's wrong?  no one, but if i'm listening to the song and i feel it is a sad song then i will lean towards the person that sang it sad....

for me it's hard to sing uplifting songs/happy songs, that's a hard emotion to convey in a song to me...short of laughing in a song how do u convey that feeling?  i add the energy plus the drive, but i still feel i fall short most times....

i believe for me anyway i critique on the way i feel at the time....how can you not? i'm not talking a reallyyyyy bad day but an average day...
i get an overall sense of the song as it's being sung, i think most of us on here can tell a good singer from a bad one in a few notes of hearing them...but that doesn't make the bad singer bad all the way thru, i'm betting in the course of the song they have some very good moments, and on those moments is where critiquing  should also apply,  and the bad singer should build on....

Steven ur lucky in the sense that you have no bad habits to get rid of, ur starting fresh....in ur case i think ur making it harder than it is, by analyzing it to death...jmo...i could be wrong....i think you learn more from just letting loose and just singing than thinking about the good and the bad things about ur voice...you have to first know what ur voice at the time is capable of...

having said that i don't think there's an easy way r short cut to get where u wanna go...but to me the first key is knowing where u wanna go then what is the best way to get there in the least amount of time....

i took singing lessons a few days, because i had nodes on my vocal cords, i sang wrong and talked wrong, i still do....but he had me doing things like ....no, ho, ho , ho hoooo....that wasn't a warm up either, to me that was a complete waste of time, it did nothing for me, another 1 was he had me sing  something then he said you feel thatttt? in my diaphragm, i said yes....he said ok then go home and make the whole song feel that way....and if ur wondering no i never went back....i have nothing against lessons r other people helping that know what they're talking about,  but for me to sit here and try to tell you how to sing the right way, from the diaphragm is a waste of ur time and mine....but i will say as i grew older i did start singing a lilttle more from my diaphragm and yes there's a ton of difference...and it's all good, sooooo much more power...but a singing teacher can't give you heart r emotion u have to find that urself...in Steven's case he has no heart so he can skip that lesson....yes that was a joke kinda

yea i know i'm long winded...sorry....tc

Here's the thing about a critique - it is MOSTLY opinion.  There are some things which are fact - your pitch was off, your timing was off, etc.  As far as a critique on presentation, THAT is opinion of the person critiquing.  And, yes, there are times when your mood might affect how you "hear" what you are listening to.  That doesn't mean there is no validity to what is in your critique.  To me, the responsibility of the critiquer is to give their impressions of what they heard, and to phrase it nicely. *lopsided grin*  The person being critiqued needs to go over that critique with an open mind, realizing it is NOT a personal attack, or even personal at all, and decide what, if anything they think has validity or could be worked on.

Truly, anything you have to say in a critique might be helpful to the singer.  It is up to the singer to pick and choose what they want to incorporate, because very rarely will 2 critiques be identical.  Everyone has their opinion, and you will never be able to please everyone.  In the end, you have to be happy with what you do - not do something because someone told you to do it a certain way (which doesn't apply all the time if you sing professionally - you have to do what the director says, like it or not, but that's another story...)

As far as voice teachers or voice lessons go...well, there are good voice teachers and bad voice teachers as with anything else.  I've worked with both.  I've had teachers that have done really great things for me, ones that did nothing for me, and one who really screwed with my head.  Like anyone else you would hire for a job, you need to be sure they fit with YOUR requirements and are not working their own agenda.  If you have been using your voice incorrectly, and therefore developed nodes, you probably should take some lessons.  If you simply continue as you were, the problem will get worse until you are unable to sing at all.  The teacher you were working with just wasn't right for you.  That doesn't mean there isn't someone out there who will work for you.

Yes, some of those exercises can seem silly....and yes, some of them are BS - I remember years ago a voice teacher (who I DIDN'T work with) who would have his students belch in order to "open your throat."  Uhhh...yeah...no.  But there ARE exercises which seem ridiculous, but are effective.

A GOOD singing teacher CAN give you heart and emotion - not directly.  As an example, my NY voice teacher is BRILLIANT.  I was working on a piece for an audition, and was just having a difficult time finding the right emotional place to come at it from.  It was good, but not good enough.  She was able to talk me through what I was doing - had nothing to do with singing, just getting to the right place with it emotionally.  By the time we were done, it was GREAT vocally and emotionally, and I was able to apply what I used on that piece to other things I sing.  Now, if I didn't have the ability to get to the point she wanted me (and some people just CAN'T make that emotional connection), no amount of work she did would have gotten me there.  Sometimes you just need another person giving you a little guidance and outside perspective.

Getting across happy in a song....speaking just in a recording sense...it sounds silly, but...when you are singing...SMILE.  Big stupid smile.

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"I hold the key to an open door....will I ever be free...?"

Billy,

  My own feeling on critiquing an aesthetic form  (any artistic area) is that our mood and perception constantly changes.  One thing I do is NEVER critique when I'm not feeling well in any respect.   It's never a constant process.  I TRY to be objective, but I can't be truly objective because what I like in styling, genre, even sound is very different than what another person likes..  It's really extremely subjective, ALWAYS changing, and "10" is just something that to me has never been done as well, and after listening many times on many occassions still stands out to me as the best I EVER heard, or can imagine..  Nothing more...A ten is often the way the cards fell at a particular sub'd rendition.. Mood was right basically...  Outside of that, MOST of the top performances are :8: and :9: even if seemingly flawless.. because I just feel there's something better that could've been done...  It's an everchanging process.. I have no critique style.. ALL I wish to do is help the person I critique.. Nothing more.. There's no ONE WAY that works for all...  I just say it like I hear it..
This is what bothers me about the showcase however... An 8 becomes a "slam", when in reality an 8 is something to be proud of..  When 9's and 10's or constant postings of "That was great, super, fabulous etc",  What good does it do ?  What's to grow on ?  WHat's to look forward to ?  Few are ten, and when a person DOES turnout a 10, they can be very proud.. but 10 is exploited in the showcase... Another thing along this thought too...  A person does a song today and it's a "10",  next time they do it, it's unlikely it will be !    The same person can seldom turn out a 10 many times IMHO because like our ear.... their mood and singing changes constantly too Critiquing for me is technical skill, emotional aspects conveyed, dynamics applied, mix, in general a ten is THE BEST I EVER heard, and there can't be any better or comparable rendition IMHO... So a ten is My Opinion and nothing more... A ten is PERFECT to ME...  not necessarily you..  In brief, a 10 must be perfect for me to rank and substantiate it's a ten... I have to REALLY think hard about it too...  Yet sometimes a 10 might be a fortuneate fluke..

Example:  One of the tens I gave was Milo's first rendition of Heaven. It was perfect to me in EVERYWAY.. I thought it far outdid DO (DJ Sammys mixed cocktail version femake singer), and outdid ALL cocktail rendition I heard.. However NOT every rendition she did of that song was a 10.   The first rendition was just superior, it was ALL there !  down to the recording of her ethereal vibrato fade... Just amazing..

RE:  No bad habits yet..

See,  there is a reason why I keep my volume so low few can hear me  LMAO

Seriously tho,  this is why TOTAL honesty is so crucially important to me.. I CAN NOT hear myself as I sound.. Reason being,  if what I hear doesn't sound like the original artist, I think it sucks..While I'm singing, I really imagine I'm the original artist.. I allow no room in singing for MY voice because it's strange sounding (but you already know that ).  If I don't cover a song,  I beat myself up in critique..

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Kappy you're gonna be miserable if you base your ability on how much you emulate whoever the original singer is. That;s demanding you actually have TWO talents. The first one is to actually be able to sing- and the second is the ability to mimic another singer. They are NOT one and the same- you shouldn't expect that of yourself.

Also Billy regarding happy songs- Kitty hit the nail on the head about getting a happy song across. Anyone who does voiceover work will tell you that you CAN hear a smile. Even telemarketers are tauight to smile when they speak. It goes a LONG way into pulling the listener in...Streisand is a master at it! But I've heard you sing song's that weren't the crying in your beer variety and you did just FINE on them= perhaps rather then lacking the ability to get them across- it's you EAR that doesn't like the sound as much. Cuz to my ear they were great.


Oh an Kitty...THEY WANTED YOU TO BELCH???????? omg!!! LMFAO!!! Talk about red neck vocal coaches! teee heeee!

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 Not me...even when I was starting out and knew NOTHING that wouldn't have flown with me.  *laugh*  It was some celebrity voice coach....I think Paula Abdul worked with him...yeah...explains a few things, no? *lopsided grin*

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"I hold the key to an open door....will I ever be free...?"

I have to mimic something that sounds so-so at least in order to sing tho and it's not working.  I sould like The Godfather getting punched in the stomach

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Kappy- send me an mp3 of you singing something that you don't hate the way you sound on- and let me hear what you sound like. Also send me a list of singers/spongs you think you would sound good on. I'll listen and tell you which ones you have the best hope of sounding anything like - since you have to hear something to compare too. You might also want to send the same list to a few other singers on here like Morgan and catseyeview- they have the ability to pick songs for people that really suit the individuals voice. You can see what we all think and maybe pick the song(s) we all agree would be good for you. I agree with Vik- that site you're on isn't working- I can't hear it at all- Vik says the tracks are terrible- and it sounds like you don't have much control over your levels.

Also- if you have audacity and a basic mixer and mic- you have what you need to record. That's all we need to help you

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Yeah,  That's pretty kinky IMHO !  hoooo NEVER should have four O's !

Funny thing about Critiquing Billy.  I don't analyze the process.. I just take the individual into consideration, listen to the song and assuming I like the song, apply some tact in delivery assuming I'm reticent.. the process is natural,  Couldn't be more simple, it's music and it's first nature to me *but* WHEN the singer is a very talented singer, and the performance is extremely good, THIS is what is toughest, and I rack my brain. Trying to figure out if I can critique at a certain level.
VERY few wish for, or can handle honesty in these sites, the process although intended to be positive is NOT a light-hearted FUN process, it's real, it's serious, often intense, and it's certainly not JFF assuming the goal isn't serious musician who has some concept of where the TRULY fit in the realm. In a College atmosphere it's delt with, in a "fun" venue it becomes a time bomb waiting to explode. Some have shown they can deal with what's *real* consistently knowing they aren't Gods gift to anything. I know you can handle Critique, Jian can, Lonnie can, Sebby can, a few others MIGHT be able to handle the process although perhaps not consistently, I don't know, and MOST others stating they can, truly CAN NOT..  Since I'm analytical in general THIS process isn't tough in my particular case. I've HAD to be analytical to survive certain environments.  I guess it's just a simple 2nd nature process for me, So yeah, "all feel". The fact the Showcase becomes a risky environment to Critique in, well, I don't allow THAT to become my problem, I see the red flags, and stay far away HAHA. The signs just discourage me from bothering with the immense dishonesty and self-serving behaviour I see as well as a category not wanted in that setting. I won't contribute to it,  If I do, many will kick and quit..because accompanying 5 ranks are going to be handed out, THAT'S what's honest, and no apologies made, It'd just show how good a few are on a good day .  Introducing something as real as critique into a fantasy-world can't possibly work The process itself should just be in an appropriate setting and musicians telling others what they think, even if something stinks, without rank, (since rank complicates the whole setting exponentially because it creates a contest). My feeling is AS LONG as it addresses *the music* solely, NOTHING beyond, and is substantiated, it's fine, If I don't like a person, and can't keep feelings separate I DO NOT Critique them.. As a musician I've been told what's good, and what totally blows by the best.. No tact in delivery necessary assuming the person has a clue what they are talking about, as long as the music is respected, either I can or can not deliver.. Just that blunt. Concern about the music for the sake of the music... JMHO.   Critique isn't difficult for either of us to handle.  Unsolicited BS is a different situation, as is ego-based exploitation using critique as the guise by those with an inflated image of where they *actually* stand in a specific area (retaliatory slams within an unmoderated setting by those immature)..  A few can handle Critique,  MOST aren't honest enough with themselves to see they just aren't as good as they think they are.  As I've told you, a 3 or 4 rank and "that was in tune but basically flat-lined in terms of expression" will just be responded to by me with "Thank you" because what is, just is whether stated or not. In a tough area, few can be THAT good. Very few that believe they are, are. However few are like us in that respect, few have been where we've been in a cutthroat area where every city has at least a handful of brilliant modest artists unheard of by most, that can kick most anybodies butt.  If a person isn't very serious about their music, or honest and secure enough to know they royally botch some of the time and aren't Gods gift to anything but somewhere around average in a huge population of talent, they shouldn't ask for critique..
If there isn't some established respect, I won't critique, or wish for a critique by somebody I believe to not be honest, either.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

This is interesting Billy.  In fact I like this.  Thing is, In my case,  I'll likely run out've the room before I start Bawling,  or change the station from "Feed Jake" "Honey", "Taxi" to something else.   I got suckered into bawling twice over stuff in front of somebody.. These girls were sadistic, one brought over the movie "phenomenon" , another,  "What dreams may come" to watch me cry, this was about 6-8 years ago...Prior to that I hadn't had a good cry since watching Mr. Ed and McCales Navy.

Problem is,  I haven't stopped bawling since.. It's been non-stop.  I suppose I'm just an emotional guy, eh ?

I got a funny story..  In High School there was this big jock who everybody was scared xitless of, he was a decent guy once he warmed up to you (assuming you carried quarters around to protect yourself of course),  and he had enough "smarts" to belong in the Prduce Isle at some grocery store. This was the type of guy who'd make his lunch money beating people up for 25 cents,  Yep,  Dan Chapman was a sweetheart alright .. Yet when he drank his Southern Comfort, and our band started playing "Hey Joe" he'd start bawling his eyes out like a sniveling infant..  The difficult part was making sure when we were playing the song deliberately to get him going, he didn't notice us laughing hysterically AT HIM, otherwise he'd shift and go ballistic..

Yeah,  some songs DID get me going.  Emotional stuff is contagious,  Just watching an audience full of folks at a JT concert, or Harry Chapin concert was amazing at the purging of emotion.. In my mind this would qualify as a 10 too.  It MOVES you, does something profound, and that's what it's about !!

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".