Karaoke Forums

ok Fred, if your ONLY doing it free , as a hobby in one bar and you enjoy it then have fun! as long as you dont blow chunks im sure you will keep the gig as long as you want. I can respect that even tho I would never dream of it. I did offer to do my first show free. they chose to pay me, but then only had me back once . they just decided they dont want karaoke anymore...The shows went well I dont get it but its watter under the bridge. so anyways , as long as you are staying in one bar and would charge anywhere else you wont kill the industry single handedly, but sadly you are part of a trend that may seriously change things.  If karaoke does completely collapse I will as said above by Jreynolds move on to other ventures. I got into Karaoke partly to become better at eqing vocals and tuning effects. I had done some pro sound, and alot of light and other production work before and really enjoy it. Karaoke for me is possibly a step to bigger ventures, or it may remain my main focus. I guess it depends on the market.

   I also used to race stocks cars, even tho we got paid it was never even enough to cover basic expenses, It was a hobby and something I just loved to do. years ago stock car racers could make a living by racing 4 or 5 nights a week at different local tracks. purses went down , tracks dried up and it became completely impossible to make a buck but people still do it for the fun. I cant see karaoke getting to that extreme. if it does i will be back racing cuz its a bigger rush! the plus for karaoke is I can drink WHILE im doing it.

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the voices arent real, but they have some good ideas

well personally, I think Fred is a maroon (courtesy of Bugs Bunny)... Karaoke entertainment takes MONEY to upgrade, even to maintain.

Cords, Microphones, speakers or players or mixers... even new material... Even if you were charging $75 a night, you wouldn't balk at having to replace a microphone... reprints on the songbooks...

it all costs money, dude. The money we get paid for is yes to pay our hourly wage, but it's also for MUCH more!

Yes, Fred has a right to do his business as he pleases, but he's drawing a terrible problem for anybody else that doesn't consider this a hobby that might have to follow him... or god forbid, the owner of the venue talks openly about how he's got some cartoon character that runs his karaoke for free, and if others balk at paying like he does, they'll get their entertainment for FREE...

I've spent over $50,000 in this business (although I HAVE admittedly reduced my company's assets by liquidation recently)... and the thought of going into another bar where the owner or manager snidely smiles to you and says "Oh, I had some guy do it for free" just makes me want to puke!

Lets compare it to owning a boat, racecar, horse or whatever expensive hobby you like. Sure the initial investment is big, but the upkeep is real.

I already know that just the cost of maintaining the gear is non trivial. I knew that before I started. I had a cheap stand that broke a wheel and dropped a tv on the floor, needing replacement already.

I learned two things from this, the initial cost is not all of it, and second don't use a stand for the tv with wheels. I am still expanding my songlist rapidly and I have added 600 new songs in the last 4 weeks.

There are thousands of paid jobs that many people would do for free. People would pay thousands or even millions of dollars to play pro football for a season. That does not change the fact that pro-football players are well paid.

Don't worry about your paid job as a KJ though, there are plenty of bars with annyoing drunk patrons that will never attract a free or low cost KJ.

I have to admit when I think about a bar asking me to work for free I laugh. I can't imagine a business would ask for someone to work free. My daughter who is 17 even makes minimum wage. I can't believe the nerve of a bar expecting anyone to work free. I would personally feel guilty if you worked for me for free. The bar owner should at least throw you some cash some nights. He is raking in the dough while you are bringing in the people. I know you explained how it is the norm where you live, but it sounds crazy that such a thing actually exists.

Understandable yes if it was a once in a while thing for fun, but this sounds like a full time gig. We complain on the board here about undercutters working for $50 a night with subpar equipment taking our jobs away. You must understand why this is such a touchy subject. I can just think to blaim the enviroment that has been created in that area for such a thing. Shame on the bar owners for being so greedy as to stoop to not even paying for their entertainment. I suspect that if you had the option of getting paid you would, but it sounds as if you decided to quit someone else would come in and work for free.

These are my last thoughts on the whole situation. You have decided to do what you do and nothing we say will change that. You did not personally create an area that expects people to work for free and I don't believe you on your own can change it. Enjoy your hobby, but understand why we find it destructive to our businesses.

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

Agree with Babs.  The bar KNOWS what they are getting - although I feel he is being raked across the coals personally even though it's his choice, because even if he did decide to start charging, bars do talk & chances are he won't get it - why should you charge us when you are doing so & so for free?  Why would the current bar even offer money if he isn't asking, that would be stupid for the bar, why should we pay when we are getting profit off of free entertainment?

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Imagine taking your race car to Indy or Monte Carlo to race for free or your horse to the Derby.  It's one thing to ride your horse on your ranch or your car on your private track.  Much different to take it to a professional setting.  Yes there are Pro-Am Tournies and nothing wrong with that as most are a few times a year and the professionals still get paid.

You want to entertain, invite them to your house or your private club.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

who in the world has a private race track?? wouldnt it kinda defeat the pourpose of a race car to drive it on a private track where there is nobody to rub and bang a bit, and no crowd watching? when I raced we were considered "professional" we raced weekly and got paid between $25 and $150 a night. it cost $23 to get in the pits so if you had a bad night you basicly got your pit pass back. but as for the upkeep costs...my last two engines were three grand each (for a low class). tires are $65 each and some of the guys in the higher class buy 4 a night! its a hobby, and its loads of fun. my comparison was that years ago you could make a buck at it, now its purely hobby. it is the same way in local bands. if your in the pretty good range you might make $100 a night but it is getting tougher.

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the voices arent real, but they have some good ideas

1. I don't have to go shop for the drinks and keep them stocked.
2. I don't have to clean up the mess afterwards.
3. I don't have to worry about parking, and all of the other stuff.
4. I don't have to worry about annoying my neighbors on a weeknight.
5. I can meet new people more often at a public bar.
6. I dont have to worry about the person who does not leave.

etc.

THe fact that someone else is willing to handle all of the above things for a modest profit is fine with me. Now some of my friends sometimes have parties and are willing to handle all of the above stuff, and I will be bringing my kj gear to a private house next weekend. Fact is all of that is a major hassle on a regular basis, better to have a place set up to do it namely A BAR.

I go to a bar to run my karaoke for the same reasons people dont always drink at home. If they all did that then the bars would be going broke and you would be out of a job.

It is a bar. Not all bars are CBGBs or Studio 54 or Radio City Music Hall. Just like all tracks are not Monte Carlo or the Derby. My bar is not CBGBs or studio 54. It is a tiny hole in the wall place.

And yes I sang 4 times last night. A couple other singers sang 4 songs and one sang 5. In total there were only 17 singers. Another 6-7 people were there who did not sing, but no one was drinking too excessively.

The bar's take for the night was probably around$200 including tips, for the time I was running the show.

I got 4 different people who thanked me for running the show or told me I was doing a good job. None of them know I am doing it for free.

They just came out with new discs...sc9004, sc9005, sc9006, sc9509R and sc9510r

Who did, why is it pertinent to this thread?  Was it on an illegal source?

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    Assuming that the 17 singers were the only people in the bar ( hard to believe, but possible), this means that the average bar bill was under  $13.00 including tips.

    Forget whether YOU work for free or not, the bar had no reason to be open- they lost money!  

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

  Um, this thread hasn't been on subject since the middle of page one.


BTW- the duplication of CDG to CDG for backup is now and always has been legal, just like computer software. It's just illegal to use the other copies at more than one site or distribute them.   This is probably the only karaoke forum where this is still being debated.   The only source still in debate is MP3s.  Sheesh!

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Well technically not for commercial use!  This has pretty much been accepted, however most still feel it's ok if they still purchase the originals to either backup or convert to hard drive.  Computer software is different, it is in the TOA that they can make a backup!

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

This is news to me !   It'd be interesting to see documentation stating "this is now, and has always been legal" for a KJ in a work setting !  Fact is,  in a commercial setting, it's considered "Illegal burning and use" in most cases unless otherwise stated by the manufacturer.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

   Um,....fine. I've already spent too much time posting everything from the actual laws to the fine print on case covers.  What I said stands, and is the accepted fact everywhere but here.  However, I'm done.  Feel free to spend your money.for no no reason but to diminish your net.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

It's never been legal for commercial use, personal use yes - but you are right, too much time arguing on it when most understand it's not legal, but still feel they have the right to do it provided they purchased the original disc 1:1 only.  
Also don't understand the "feel free to spend your money to dimish your net statement"?  What does copying a disc have to do with anything as far as spending your money?  Unless you are indicating that all kj's are careless with their discs & eventually have to spend money to replace them?  I don't know, I have only replaced 2 discs since 92, both of those were due to theft in which I wouldn't be able to use the backup copies anyway.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

   It's the definition of "commercial" that's a problem for you. By commercial, they mean for broadcast or distribution.  Playing them for karaoke is not commercial by their standards, any more than playing a copied disc in a boombox in public is.

   However, I'm pretty certain you have a need to argue with me, and whatever I post.  I've seen too much of this already, so here's a better idea. Since I'm in the business ( both bar and karaoke), I didn't want to to rely on hearsay. I did the research, studied the laws, and compiled the information MYSELF. I would suggest that you do the same.

  I would also repeat that this is the only forum I can find where this is still in debate.  You may wish to do some catching up.......

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

No point in arguing, you believe what you want.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!