Karaoke Forums

Steven and those who contribute to this thread.......

I have a song up at SS that need some critical input from you guys. Just tell me where I suck. I can takel it. But please do it here and not  in SS... You may put 'nice' comment at SS but you don't have to nice to my 'singing' here.


Song: After The Loving.

_________________
I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

Jian,  I'll listen tomorrow.  When my head is clear.

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Adrian your tone has improved so much I do however feel this is quite a tentative sing. The music overpowered you quite a lot...and while better mixing would have helped, I think the vocal was still tentative.
Jeez I am at a loss to put what I heard and how to improve it into words cos I havent got the musical vocab to allow me to do so...
try singing less from the throat and more from the diaphram...it will give you more power and more resonance (which englebert had in abundance). You are inclined to allow your voice to tail off at the end of each phrase so as it gets lost in the music... if you can maintain the volume of your voice to the end of the end note of each phrase rather than letting it tail off, you will give the song a whole lot more confident sound.
But you can no longer call yourself "Badsinger"  :no:

_________________
"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Vicki,
Very points there. I was seated and leaning back on the chair while singing this song; I know that is not the best way to sing. At this point in time I was more concern about tempo and pitch/key, and was not concentrating on the other aspect of my singing. yet I still can't get those two quite right.

The main problem with Engelbert songs is that he have so much spare air and I have a 10th of his; thus the early fade off.



That is what I will be working on for the time being.

Thanks a lot vicki

_________________
I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

I think your pitch and timing overall (and I stress it was overall cos I am not bothered about looking for a perfect sing just and overall good listen) was fine Adrian, so much so that it is time for you to concentrate on the other things mentioned...and  :hug: back atcha

_________________
"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Jian-   After the Loving.


  First off as tempted as I was to read other comments first I DID NOT. It's important for *ME* to critique a person as originally as I can, and it's no help if I become biased based upon anothers comments that may very well be true..So I made certain not to read comments in the showcase, or Vicki's critique prior to me leaving my own... That being said... This won't be a long Critique..


1)  You are genuinely making steady improvements as time goes by.. I like your vibrato use,  I enjoyed that you were able to put more feeling into this song (when compared to many past songs where so much effort was spent just trying to DO the song (taking into consideration your ability level, and song complexity at those particular times), In the past there was really no time or room for "feeling and expression" because some of these songs were so far off tempo you were struggling.  You sang this song, and because you were more comfortable with it, you were able to focus more on dynamics, and making it sound like you were singing it.. rather than struggling to handle that which is too difficult for you..

2)  Your ability to match pitch was impressive in this song with a few areas I'd like you to be more conscious off...

      a)  Your pickup notes...  "So", and "And" you slide to the note rather than hit
                                           them on pitch... you were tuning as you sang

      b)  Your finishing notes..   In phrases  and I know this song isn't saying
                                            anything "New".. Your pitch often became careless
                                            on your final notes of your phrases...

This was all in all "good"... Wasn't fabulous, but was by no means bad.. I enjoyed your vibrato, ability to match phrasing, your ability to pitch match seemed pretty natural for you (with a few careless exceptions, but this is likely because you became distracted at the beginning knowing it's time to approach the verse, and at the end when you were almost done) . Work on those parts.. Song Beginning and Song End dynamics and nailing your pitch needs to be tweaked...

Yet you in time given your vibrato ability, and pitch matching will do quite well... BUT, you really should work on your POSTURE when you sing... IOW

STAND UP SINGING... Don't sing sitting down.. because it makes a difference in breathing, feeling you can expend, etc !

Keep up the good work,  good job !  Enjoyed this one Jian !

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

OK,  I just read Vickis comments, and even your own Jian.. I didn't know you were seated, I heard you likely weren't standing giving enough into this... So I'm glad I didn't read that earlier...  Vicki,  Do you think it would help if Jian got into the habit of standing when he sang, and worked on his breathing sort've warming and breathing into a relaxed state and at that point singing while standing, but NOT belting because when he belts his dynamics suffer ?

Just wondering.. We can also open critique up to discussion !!

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Steven and Vicki.

I will re listen to the song (in fact I have not listen to it after it was recorded since there was no mixing done) and and see where I go wrong and need to improved. I will come back here after that. Thanks steven.

I promise I will sing STANDING UP the next time.

_________________
I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

Jian,  this is where individuals that have more singing knowledge can add more than I can.. Regarding singing seated vs standing.. Somebody who has had training will know much more than I do.

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Singing seated vs standing:

When you are seated, your diaphragm is scrunched, and you are not aligned to properly use air.  If you are going to sing while seated, you need to be sure you are on the edge of your seat, very straight with both feet flat on the floor.  If you slouch forward, you "collapse" your diaphragm.  If you are seated, you also tend to be less "active" in what you are doing.  You are more likely to "relax."  It is not impossible to sing properly while seated, but it requires more work.

Standing simply helps to keep everything properly aligned for optimal use of air.  Which is not to say you can't still get lazy, slouch, and collapse your diaphragm.

Hope that helps!

_________________

"I hold the key to an open door....will I ever be free...?"

Thank you Opera Kitty,  I know it helps me.. I can't afford to take ANY shortcut that's counterproductive to projecting and getting out've head voice, I also need to optimize ALL manners that help me to regulate my breathing, because that within itself is no easy task.  I never sit while singing (with the exception of playing the piano, but in that case I make sure my torso posture is as upright as possible while trying to sing). AND,  when seated at piano I'm also singing into a microphone and thru a PA.

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Steven,



Thanks,



Doesn't it sound a bit forced?



I was concentrating on tempo and pitch when recording this. I had to, when I start with a 'new' song. As it it now I feel more at ease on the tempo and pitch and can then sing it with some expression.  



This is where I find it hard to 'enter' and need tokeep counting the beats as to get the time right and thus forgot to sing it right.

 

My very bad habit, even in karaoke bar I tend to sing seated. The only time I don't is when I am behind the board as a KJ. OK from now on I sing up rather than down.

Thank also to OperaKitty for the explanation on the subject of singing seated vs standing.

_________________
I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

You're welcome, Jian.  Glad I could offer something!

_________________

"I hold the key to an open door....will I ever be free...?"

I have heard few of Jian's songs before except for 2 others. I didnt realise that he was sitting but I noticed a marked improvement in this one to the others. as to whether standing would help...probably...eventually...between now and that time however he would probably feel a little uncomfortable. My gigs are so varied...I sit on a tall stool when I am in the restaurant or in the lounge bar...it allows me to kind of perch with one leg on the ground...this allows me to straighten my diaphram when I need to. If I am doing a gig that calls for dance then I always stand...basically if people cant feel energy coming from me they are less likely to get on the dance floor, and for me that means I am not doing my job.
Tonite there wasnt a stool...all the seating was too low, so I stood and now my back is killing me. (it was a gig for the NZ launch of the new ford mondeo) was supposed to be from 5.30 till 7.30 but finally pulled the plug at 9...its now just gone 11 and I am off to bed. Nite all  :wave:  :hug:

_________________
"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Sorry I just saw this Jian

I have to say that it seems you have improved a lot since the last time I listened to you. I thought yout timing was very good and your pitch was mostly fine, just a few variances, which I think you mostly caught.

The biggest thing I think you can do to improve this performance, is so really loosen up and put some power behind your vocals. Actually, some of it sounds just fine soft... for dynamic purposes, but it was TOO mellow all the way through. Now do be careful because it's much harder to maintain pitch control when you add power, so you may want to practice a bit.

I actually thought that when you first came in was a pretty decent volume, then you kind of faded off as the song progressed. Good lob overall and good luck!

I totally agree with that observation after re listening to the recording. It is always my problem when recoding with my current set up. The pc pencil mic just can't take high spl and will clip. The 2nd reason is ( now that I have read Oprakitty post on singing standing vs seated) that I was leaning back and seated. I don't think that is the best way to sing Engerbert songs which normally have lots of dynamic.

Thanks for your input.

_________________
I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

I didn't realize you were sitting. That certainly isn't going to give you your best performance. Oh, and invest in a better mic!!!

This is in response to what Steve K. said:

>>>Now back on topic Shocked

I take music seriously, so when a person asks for a "Critique" I believe I have an obligation to put something into it, or not do it at all.. (But that's just me)..It's ONLY how I feel, and it's NOT how others should feel, or need to be.. As long as enough are honest, the process need not be intricate or detailed.. I came in here for ONE reason only, and that was to be with Singers (musicians)... I didn't come here for the Karaoke,  The Karaoke is just "backing" and it doesn't read or interact... I'm here because singers ARE musicians... So sure, I take musicianship seriously, and to me as an extouring multiinstrumentalist, it's SINGERS that are the most gifted of the musicians.. I just backed them.. So it's just my individual feeling, since singing to me is HARD...

I've wondered this... I don't know how many interactive singing sites there are that are the size, and have the visibility Karaoke Scene has, I know of a few, but a few at best.. ASSUMING this is a very large singing site.. Isn't it possible the BEST singers in the world that have interactive singing access and an interest in internet interacting singing would gravitate to Karaoke Scene ?  Meaning that it should really be of no surprise assuming this is among the most interactive of singing sites that the MOST and highest percentage of Singing talent WOULD in fact gravitate to this site assuming people aren't either actively working in such a setting (so they don't have time and interest to sing and do music, but how about people that wish to settle down, and have a life that ARE pro-ability singers ?  Maybe stay at  home moms currently, or people that've relocated to more rural areas because of other lucrative means of making a living ?  (Jobs singing at nightclubs  aren't a dime a dozen around here, in fact such jobs don't exist that will pay anymore) So even pro-ability singers will find themselves needing to find other sources of work given the number of fabulous singers there are out in the woodwork hiding in many locations that just haven't yet been discovered, and assuming they were ?  Talent doesn't afford work in the performing arts anylonger given such a competitive nature of positions and time needed.... The MOST talented musicians need jobs with bene's, some are also blown out from working in a performing arts setting and have retired..  My thoughts are the highest percentage of singing talent in the world with the time and the internet access, or folks that are interested in sharing WOULD in fact be here.

Karaoke Scene, MIGHT wish to consider an area for pro-ability singers/musicians to do their thing too.. Seems reasonable that stay at home moms who even WERE pro singers, those that can't handle the life that WERE pro singers, and retired PRO singers are here too...  Karaoke DOES include the best singers out there !!
>>

It's for karaoke singers, though, not professional singers, so the bar can't be raised that high. You will lose most of the members if you do that (or at least, if they don't leave, there will be a lot of fighting and sniping).

Some of this is subjective, too.  What sounds good to me may not sound as good to you, and vice versa.  Personally, I can't stand Bob Dylan, but my husband loves his stuff.  I can objectively listen to someone sing a Dylan song, like Dylan, and tell whether they are successful in imitating him, or singing his songs in tune, but otherwise it would be hard to rate someone singing his songs, since to me they sound whiny and flat.  Similarly I think it's hard for a lot of people to judge songs when they have never heard them before (don't know what they are supposed to sound like), or if it some type of song very different than what they are used to (like rap, or alternative, or punk et al.).

Then you have some people who try to help by making comment like "your rhythm is off", when either you are trying to do your own thing and change the rhythm a little, or worse they know a different version of the same song, so they are judging by a whole different thing.

There are a lot of people on here that I would say are "bad singers", and they are not going to improve.  But I can applaud them anyway if they are being daring by posting a song. I sure as heck wouldn't post if I thought I sucked. To me that's very brave!  Or some people just have a weird voice and they would never be a professional singer, but that doesn't mean they don't put a lot of work into their music and are basically doing the right thing.  Some people on here are also very old and have no breath control, or they have had some sort of physical problem that prevents them from being able to breathe properly.

My point is critiquing on here is very subjective and difficult, and you risk pissing off a lot of people.

I do agree that if someone says "critique me" that you should be able to do so (politely) but there are some stubborn souls here who refuse to understand that and will continue to get insulted when you give them critique. Just as their are always going to be people who do "fluff" comments no matter what.

I admit that I am not always 100% honest in my critique and that sometimes I go a little overboard in my enthusiasm. But I do like most of the singers here and enjoy listening to them, even if every note is not perfect.  That's the great thing about karaoke. It is for everyone, whether they are good singers or not.  

I think a lot of people do fluff here as a means of encouraging their fellow singers.  Just like live karaoke, most of us applaud, whether the singer is good or not.

Just my feelings on the subject..

I've said this before, but rather than changing the site, why not make your own similar site for singers? Or go to someplace like daretosing.com where I believe they do a whole lot less fluff?

I like the fact that we have good singers here and some critiquing is going on....I think it keeps most people from submitting crap. I know it does me But I want it to be polite and I don't want more fighting like last time...

And to answer your question...no, I don't think most professional or great singers would come to karaoke scene because there is a lot of prejudice out there among them against karaoke.  Just as there is a lot of reverse-snobbery among karaoke singers, too--the people who feel that this should only be "for fun" and that no one should take singing seriously.

There are tons of sites out there where people sing and post their songs (many of them video now). I don't know how big this one is compared to those.

Many people on these sites have never sung in public at all...you would probably be surprised how many are too timid to go out and sing in karaoke even, let alone with a band, even though they sing beautifully here.

Suzanne

_________________
~Suzanne Lanoue~

I pretty much agree with everything you just said Suzanne.

The thing here is, everyone wants to be the rulemaker. (the classic case of too many chiefs and not enough indians) Really, we all should be able to take what we want from this site and leave everyone else to do the same. Sometimes this constant bickering about how this place "should" be gets really old.

('scuse me, I meant to say: really (@$%&#!) old )  :D

_________________
♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

I agree with both of you.. BUT,  I'm not proposing a shift from Karaoke to "singer" site because true, "This is a Karaoke Site", and Karaoke is the draw, not talent (for most).. What I'm thinking is why not make room for both within KS ?  I DO NOT believe Singers Showcase should be changed or people should go into it gung-ho "Critiquing" to try to change things.. Showcase works as it is for most, but how about those it doesn't work for ?  Why not have a separate area perhaps (similar to KJ's having a club) where Singers can get more out've the experience without alienating those who are content as is ?  I think "Just Karaoke", and SERIOUS minded musicians might be an oil/water mix for some.. While the serious folks don't wish to be limited by "fluff".. the "JFF" Karaoke crowd (as you pointed out Suzaane) doesn't wish to feel alienated by intensity.

It's been stated, SOME don't feel true Critique is comfortable in the current SS setting, which others wish for the option to BE serious-minded.. Why must KS exclude either/or ?  I think we have the Singers Forum for those that wish to place more emphasis on "Singing" aspects.. similarly this forum can only be as much or as little as we all collectively make it..

It's not a BLAME issue,  and that should end, Face it.. SS works for the VAST majority, it wouldn't be reasonable to even wish to change it when there are other options.. It's live and let live, and it appears there needs to be some separation for this to exist .



I know, For this reason I disagree with what Seby stated regarding the cavalier-type of Critiquing those that sub under "C" for the purpose of attempting to change a system that most don't wish changed, It'll just make those currently happy there (and that's the majority that post there) unhappy. Problem is there are two diametrically opposed mindsets. The "Just Karaoke and Serious minded singer" wish for different experiences from SS...The fun set,  considers Critique mean.. and the more serious folks who wish to improve who are willing to take what appears to be a blow (to the Just Karaoke group) in order to have their own needs met here (singing ability improved).  I'm not saying SS should evolve to serious-minded, I'm hoping those that are more serious-minded can also get their needs met in here.. Might be nothing more than what we've been doing,  having a Critique thread going.. Or, as Nathan said, in time some adjunct area in the Singers Forum.. Whatever folks want



I don't understand why so many are turning this into a polarized all/none issue.. NOTHING needs to be 100% anything.  Critique is just to help a person and of course the process involves tact, ability level of the individual, and shouldn't be a wanton process, but instead just a productive process.. So much is All/none and it need not be that way

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".