Karaoke Forums

Ummm, yeah, I'd respect that 1,000 times more.  

The bar owner is (theoretically) making more profit from the additional patrons who come in for karaoke, why should they also get to pocket the fee they should be paying for the entertainment?  Not to mention, it's still perpetuating the idea that hired entertainment has absolutely no value, which hurts prices even more in an already depressed industry.

Anybody like Karaoke where you can sing 2 songs an hour?

Some singers do.

That means 15 people in the bar (or less).

With crowds that size the bar is only going to make $150 in sales all night.

Cost of drinks, rent etc. $75. Profit for bar owner $25. Wages for bar tender $50.

Tell me where and how I can get a $100 fee out of such a gig and I will.

How many times do I have to explain the economics.

Its not like the Karaoke has no value, it is just a model that can't be made profitable in every sitiatuon.

Unless you draw 20-30 people more into the bar than they would have if you were not doing Karaoke then your gig is not worth $100 even if you tried to chage that much.

To make $300 for a show you better have the bar packed with 100 additional people that would not be there without karaoke.

100 people to a karaoke show is hard to achieve. Most of them will not be able to sing.

From the bar's perspective Karaoke is entertainment that makes them  money. If your model is based on small crowds that center on the singer being able to sing several times then you cant charge for the show much, unless the bar charges a premium on drinks or a cover charge. With 3 other no cover karaoke bars within a few miles of the one where I have my show a cover charge will not work.

Stop fooling yourself that you are worth $200 a night if you dont pull in a crowd. Once you admit it to yourself then you won't be shocked when you loose the gig to a price undercutter.

A guy who makes his living on small bar gigs explained the economics to me a bit. The break even point for a $175 fee is about 50 people, usually, in a small bar.  That isn't crowd size, that is total attendance, including singers. And they don't have to be there all the time, just over the course of the evening. Each person will spend on average $7, including tips. Not everyone spends that much, mind you -- a few drunks end up with a $30 tab, the large table with drink-buyers end up spending a $100 bill. The bartender isn't paid much of a wage, they work mostly for tips.

For that amont of money, he won't do any loadout to speak of. Once the gig is going, he buys a pair of $200 speakers and installs them in the bar, and pre-runs cable paths for speakers and TV. At that point, it is just bring the laptop (used to be player and CDGs), a small rack, and the microphones and stands. All fits easily in an SUV or minivan, without sweat. Setup takes 20 minutes, breakdown the same.

Dr Fred:

The way to make a small bar gig profitable (I did it for years) is play to drunks and not singers.  Singers sing.  Drunks drink.  The bar makes money by the drink not the song.  The fun part is not being drunk, it's slowly getting drunk.  The slow loss of inhibitions and with any luck clothes.  It's a party.  Treat it like that.  The bar will probably only break even on karaoke nights but if your karaoke people become new regualrs that is where profit comes into the picture.

I don't see a problem if you want to work for free.  Your case is unique.  You like to KJ.  For most folks who do it's just an Okay job.

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Okay, who took my pants?

That's true... but at the same time, I doubt that investing in CDGs is going to show that level of maturity and commitment, as much as having quality equipment and the personal investment of time to set up a good show. These days, due to lower prices, I believe a person could set up a reasonably good selection with just a few hundred dollars invested into CDGs. That really doesn't show such a level of commitment as the thousands of dollars they have to invest to have good equipment.

Another problem is duplication. If one buys a collection of CDGs, they will find quite few songs duplicated on several disks... so that equals a waste of money. You're paying for songs you don't need. Sometimes there are different versions of the songs, and I'm sure some singers prefer one version to another, but it also gets confusing for the newbie Karaoker (Karaokee? Karaokier? ah never mind... singer) to figure out which jumble of letters and numbers code song they want to sing when there are three versions available.



! Anyone who says a KJ is 'lazy' has never tried to be 'on stage' for several hours, PLUS the added complication of handling a fair rotation, keeping the disks running like a well-oiled machine and taking up the slack if necessary. I've never tried KJ-ing myself, but I've watched it and I've done performances and I know it's hard work.

Unfortunately, the biggest reason that KJs aren't able to demand the kind of money they once were, basically boils down to the customers. The customers simply do not DEMAND (in most cases) a high quality show, and as others have said, don't know or care whether the songs were obtained in a legal manner. The more customers a show pulls in, the more the bar will be willing to pay for that show. If all the customers care about is being able to sing and have fun.. the show that gives them the most of that will get the most gigs. Personally, I love a good KJ and would much prefer a good 'show' to a CDG 'jockey' who basically just switches disks and passes off the mic. But, I fear I'm in the minority.



Thanks

[glow=blue]I have worked in the same "small" bar for eight years, luckily being hired by every new owner. Five to count. So far..the ones i work for now have owned it 2 years.
I usually get from 10-21 singers a night. We don't take breaks...as there are two of us..my hubby and i. That also leaves me free to roam a bit during a song...get people going..hugz...encouraging to get up and dance...come sing...etc. I make 150 every time. Drinks are included in my package. I've a shot or two of tequila...and i drink coke all night. i have NEVER not made what i've asked for. And believe me..he makes good money at the end of the night. I know because they always show me the ring out. I'm lucky too because i've lived here 26 years. Most of my regulars are now some of the kids i babysat for......and their parents and friends. We get people from other surrounding towns....some 25 miles away. We use slips...my hubby uses a rotation board they clip to. Once you hand in your slip...that's where you stay. New singers are not put in till the next rotation...and that's where they stay. If we see you have one song left...i get up and ask...did you have anymore songs you want to do? You're last song is coming up. They give me a ticket if they do...or they say...Nope. I'm done...thanx for asking. They are removed from rotation.

I realize we are very lucky in that we've never really had any problems. My set up is just right for where we are. Five minutes from home. We did gigs in surrounding places...places that we stayed over night because the drive back was too long...especially in winter.  However now..we just do this every other week. We do private parties...for us its a great fun job...and we still love it.

I believe since it's Dr. Freds choice..he should be able to work it how he sees.
After all..he does own it. Just MHO.  :yes: [/glow]

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Well since you obviously don't have the slightest clue about the economics other than pulling numbers, which make absolutely no sense, out of thin air, you might as well stop explaining it.

Any bar that can only pull in $150 in sales a night is a bar that's going to be out of business very very soon.  Why on earth would anyone own a bar if they were making $25 profit per night?  You could make more working the register at McDonalds.

Businesses exist to make profit.  But since you don't seem to have any comprehension of that, it makes complete sense that you wouldn't bother to charge a fee to even cover your basic operating expenses.

Wow if that is all your bar is making, they probably shouldn't be in business or won't be much longer.  15 people or less per night?  What is the capacity?  If that's truly the case where you are playing in a room that's holds less people than most peoples living rooms, I can honestly see why you are playing for free, they will NEVER make money.  In most places & most cases, if you can get about 15 singers, then usually you'll end up with 2-3 times the ratio for non-singers on a decent karaoke night.  Many people come in with their singing friends that don't sing themselves, but still spend money as well.  
I've worked small clubs (45-50 person capacity)  in the past & they went from $150 ringouts to over $500 the first night.  Now beit that was with just word of mouth advertising, once they got print ads in the local entertainment section of the paper, their rings went to over $1000 on avg.

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[shadow=deepskyblue]I'm impressed, I've never met such a small mind inside such a big head before.[/shadow]

The economics of most bars is that they make their money on Friday and Saturday nights.
The bar makes more on most fridays or saturdays than the 4 weekdays.

On the other hand Karaoke is often done on weekdays.

The bar tends to have 80-120 people on weekends/fridays. Rarely as many as 200 at one time. Weekdays without entertainment, crowds tend to be nearly empty (generally less than 10). With entertainment or a band the numbers can climb to between 20 and 50. That is what the karaoke can add on a weekday in my situation.

Until a band can prove they draw they generally don't get anything. I have seen weekday bands playing to less than 5 people there.

Some karaoke bars nearby draw even fewer people.

And no I don't enjoy catering to drunks. In spite of what they believe at the time few people are fun to be around after they have had 6 drinks.

I have been doing karaoke in a small bar that seats 45 people max. I've been there for 4-1/2 years now.

The gig is on Monday nights and I run from 9:30pm to 12:30am during the slow part of the year (summer) we average $900 per night (3hrs) during the slow times in a 45 seat bar. During busy times we do $1100 to $1500.

During the course of the evening we will have some people that come and go but for the most part during karaoke we keep their butts in the seats.

My point is Dr Fred your knowledge of bar economics is a bit different than some of us. Hey that's ok....just some bars are different.

The owner of the bar is perfectly happy paying me my fee. In fact he has suggested raising that figure recently. I just said...throw in a meal and my drinks and lets call it even. I do the gig because I enjoy it and I make a reasonable sum for my services.

I do agree with whoever said...if you don't feel comfortable getting paid for being a KJ why not charge a regular fee that other KJ's charge and then donate it to your favorite chairty. That way you don't muddy the waters in with the other "for pay" KJ's in your local area, and you are able to make a contribution to your community. Not a bad idea!  I may give this a whirl sometime. There are plenty of good causes besides myself to contribute too

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FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

I am in a college town, and most of the people are students or young. The most common beer drunk by far is pabst blue ribbon, sold for $1.50 a bottle. Only a tiny minority drink mixed drinks regularly.

Sure if your bar has people who drink $4-5 beers or $7 mixed drinks it would be different. I observe the purchases and I am pretty sure I am very close to the nightly take.

Based on your example of 1500 on a good night,  that translates to about $35 a seat per night. At the prices in my bar that would be 14+ beers with a dollar tip each. or about 7 mixed drinks.

That is not the case as most of the people can walk out the door.

WOW! This thread hits the mark concerning bars profits and KJ worthiness. I am a bar owner, and probably a future KJ worker. The bar business sucks here, a profit is a laughable matter and surviving to keep the rent and utilities paid looks like I'm working for the interest of the bigger corporational profiteers. I feel like I'm part of the current administrations "corporate welfare" program, surviving in large part to keep the corporate wheels greased.

The bar gig (ownership) is about to end and I'm looking to eventually do KJ as a side job for the profit/enjoyment. The $150 per night that our prior KJ was getting looks like GOLD now! My system is better all around, it's computerized with a ton of filler and the sound is better IMHO. I have grown to love doing the KJ part of the bar ownership, its great to have everyone singing/drinking and generally having a good time. I feel a sense of accomplishment when that is acheived. If and when I get another KJ gig, my past experience as an owner will allow me to see the severity of keeping the butts in the seats and drinks flowing. My wife has grown to really like doing the KJ also, and will also share in the gigs/profits etc.

There's is a lot of truth to what exweed says, playing to drunks makes the small bar owners profitable. It sure is true here. However, some customers take their singing very seriously, and it takes familiarity with your customer base to know when to change the format, but it's not too difficult really.

Drinking while KJ'ing...ummm. That's hard to handle sometimes. I love my draft beer and jello shots! It would have been impossible before the computerization, but now its possible, I've provin' it over and over. I guess the smart thing to do is use my wife as the "designated KJ" .    

                                                                              bigjim56

CliffsNotes, I need CliffsNotes.. And  more coffee..  LMAO

Burning CD+Gs is so two years ago..  LMAO

Sat the bar owner came in and we had a couple of consults We talked about lighting PR improvements just little stuff. He dissolved his pizza business which had the best pizza in town and cheeseburgers but you can still get in the small bar (150 puts it SRO) We are going to move into the pizza parlor maybe hold 3-400.

He is not a typical bar owner He is a professional businessman He listens to his customers as I do. You dont just put a 2x12 on 2 barrels and slop beer on it and expect to make a profit. Those days are over. You need a professional mngr and staff that knows PR.

Whether it is in a club or small bar if the difference between the x tape when we start and the z tape at last call isnt a grand then I am not doing my job BTW this bar does $1000-2500 on a Sat. (150 cap)

Over the last 2 years on this forum I have tried  to advise people on this forum about successful business practices and all I get is arguments and I wonder if they have ever been in a successful bar. or ran a successful professional business. I have even read threads about pro or non-pro. I am a professional I have been a professional in many vocations and just because its karaoke I am still going to apply the high standards to my vocation that I have applied all my life.

Quit blaming the drunk down the street and the laws and get off your (@$%&#!) and I will tell you how to KJ and entertain..

A PIRATE IS RUINING MY BUSINESS  :( JFC And Im gonna hire Donald Duck for a host..

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Wow!  $1.50 for a beer

It's $2.50 for Pabst here and $3-$4 for microbrews here. Mixed drinks are $3.50 and up. I think the bar needs to rethink the pricing to pay for entertainment. Most bars here do raise their prices on entertainment nights.

I'm not sure what their profit margin is on beer in your area but here it's really good.

One thing is for sure the Bar Owners here are really cheap. They would not have the entertainment if it was not paying its way. At the prices your bar is charging I'm sure they would not even consider having entertainment as they would not need it. The prices are cheap enough to draw the crowd.

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FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

One of the owners I deal with is pretty "loose lipped" about profit.  A beer (Bud Light and Busch Light here are popular) costs her $.67.  She sells it for 2.50.  Sounds like a huge profit, but there are costs and taxes that most of us have never heard of.  I play there thursday and friday every week.  She pays for restocking the beer and liquer from Thursday night alone.  Fri is pure profit.  She clears $1000, easily with a cap. of about 100.  She says, "Without karaoke (me) she wouldn't make a dime.  She is happy to pay my fees on Friday night and I am happy and proud of the job I do.

Another bar in town charges $1.25 for PBR and they have karaoke as well. Sure it probably only costs them about $0.50 or less, they have a lot of other costs (taxes, rent etc).

Most of the bars in town sell it or some other brand for under $2.

Given that the profit (per drink) of the bar is about a dollar less than in your case, and the fact that the maximum audience of karaoke singers is "limited", the profit margins have to be slim. There is little room to pay for entertainment.

Athens Is a town of about 150,000 with 30 bars.

The town also has hundreds of active bands, many who just want experience and exposure. Getting free or nearly free entertainment in this town is not difficult. In just the current week I see about 100 different live bands performing in town this week. Only about 15 of them with a cover charge. I suspect about 75-80 of the bands are unpaid.

About 25 different DJs are also listed for the weeks enterainment, I suspect most of them are mainly doing it for experience as well.

With 30 bars in town the only ones that can charge more than $2 for a low price domestic beer are the ones that attract major musical acts.

Cost of living is low in town, one can still buy a brand new house for around $120,000 or less.

Avg price of a home here is $290,000 it's been almost 10 years since we have seen housing at $120,000!

Sounds like a great place to be when the real estate boom hits!

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FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

Just a little north of you & the cost of an average size home (2 bed/2 bath less than 1500 sq ft.) is about the same.  
But even so, the price of bar entertainment regardless of whether it's fun or not to the host that still pays the money to support, upgrade, & maintain the equipment shouldn't be free to a bar.  Bands (i've played in several) are not the same as karaoke, many bands have LOST their jobs to karaoke because it's cheaper, but it still shouldn't be free to a bar IMO, even BAD cover bands still have a minimum fee simply because it's still their time - no they generally do not play for free - they will charge a bar a minimum fee, original bands will play for free or for drinks as they are just trying to gain exposure to hopefully (in their dreams) hit the big time.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I'm a little over an hour north of Lonman and average price for an average kind of home now is well over $300G.  I'm not sure how people afford to go out and be entertained as much as they do but the karaoke community here is incredibly large. There are probably 20 clubs in a 10-mile radius of me that are smallish, don't pay bands much, but still pay for karaoke - $175-200/show. Many of the small clubs have their own systems, such as they are, and pay someone to host...of course no new music, less than stellar hosting, etc., the usual that goes along with that. Drinks are very reasonable, I think - I'm not a big drinker, but well drinks are usually on a happy hour pricing for at least part of the evening.  Beer is not expensive, and most places have some more "exotic" ones on tap - most people drink those.  Not uncommon for a table to have a tab of close to $200 at the end of the night, even in the smaller places. Casinos draw a lot of the people (especially tribals, which still allow smoking inside) but those people are gamblers anyway - the largest casino (Tulalip) has a HUGE music room and they bring in pretty big names (usually at a financial loss) - never a cover to go there, either. DUI laws here are tough and that has impacted karaoke and bands more than anything around here. They sit and wait for places to empty out. Really interesting, all the variables, across the country...I find it very interesting as it is easy to assume other places are the same!  BTW, Lonman, I'll be in Tacoma on T'giving weekend - will you be working??? Love to drop in on you!