Karaoke Forums

Fact is in my town the bottom price (a few free beers a night has already been reached). The only way to compete now is to put on a better show than someone else that is doing it free. Getting back to my initial comment that started the firestorm, another friend of mine just started karaoke, and they independently negotiated a non paying regular gig. It is not just me our local karaoke market is over saturated, supply/demand. Supply is high and the demand can be met by people willing to do the job for nothing, possibly there are other willing KJs in my town as well that cant even get an unpaid gig. That is about the going rate in my town for a bar you would want to spend your time in. I have a few friends who sing, and yes we have noticed the quality of our local karaoke decline. We want a good venue and that is why I am going to try to do my best at a karaoke show. I have a high stress job, that rewards me with enough income to become a KJ as a hobby. I want to relax one night a week and have fun. Karaoke does it for me.

At least croakdog understands. He does it for the fun and the personal satisfaction of being noticed. That is why I am involved in karaoke. It really dawned on me one time when a started talking to a stranger in a bar and he mentioned he had seen me sing and that I did a good job of it. He described a performance of a song I did A YEAR AND A HALF BEFORE. I had not seen or talked to him at the time but he remembered. That is why I do it. I cant walk around downtown at night without getting called Mr Karaoke, or the Karaoke Guy by people I have never met. Other people start conversations with me regularly about songs I did months before. If I could get paid locally I would, but locally it is not an option.

I know quite a few gents who have legal cdgs and only work for bar tabs. Of course, they are alcoholic, but.....

Personally, I think they suck. They end up getting too drunk and someone, with less personality, has to take the reigns. However, at that time of night, no one really cares. My chief complaint about KJs is the sound. Muddy, of course, this hides those who have crap voices.

Another thought,
I would have toassume allthose pirateers support BARRY BONDS with his illegal activities.
Right?
Obviously the singers and customers are the bottom line when it comes to  who works and who doesn't.
My comments about singers who buy burnt cdgs are that they support those who do illegal copying.
As I read it, it's illegal to buy an illegal copy but not illegal to copy their own.
As usual those support illegal pirateers tend to attack those who tr to do the right thing.
Why is that?
I guess the answer still eludes me.
Hey maybe if we all get together, we can get the mfgs to produce quality products at a cost that benefits all..
How about that to help bring this issue to close?
Respectfully
Rodney

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Karaoke is supposed to be fun, if it isn't, then it's NOT KARAOKE.......

I can see both sides to this issue of performing for drinks {hiccup}, or for the fun of it. Oh..before i forget. Most bar owners could give a rats behind about a muddy sound system, or if you think someones show sucks. Most bar owners know one thing...and only one thing. And that's how many times the cash drawer opens. And, we had a dude here that put on a pretty good "Tips" show, they to cost club owners nada don't forget. He had this hot babe that worked with him, pulling songs, and taking request slips, and she wore not much more then a smile. They packed the place. Nope, i bet oh Fred can get the job done, just as good as the over paid KJ, that does an elvis floor show, while the wind from the door opening and closing blows your song request slip off his table. I had to audition for my KJ job boys, they advertised i was coming in two weeks before i started. I was suppose to audition for an hour, the club owner slipped me a $50, a shot of JD, i ended up doing 4 hours, and got the job. But i have never delibertly under cut anyone. But a club owner looks at dollar signs, you can think you are a kj god, if your personality stinks, so do you, clear sound system and all. The ones you really should be worrying about, are the kj companies, that run 4, 5, 6 kj's and undercut all the independents in the area, and take all the gravey and high paying private jobs. yes, even those i have caught with repro disc. naw...i don't sweat the Freds......

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Sweet Little Me In Karaokeland........

I love the Karaoke forums here. It's a good place for thoughts and ideas for your business, equipment, running shows, etc.

But.....I see some folks with severe cases of inflated idealism and egos. Come on it's Karaoke.....

It supposed to be fun, I run digital so what, I don't burn disc's so what, I have never had a single person or venue owner (primarily bars) ask me if I my music was legal.
I don't think they care.

Furthermore...If one or the other did ask me if it was I would say "It is to the best of my knowledge" Because if we can't figure it out here....I seriously doubt they could.

I suppose the law could get me or an owner to be "drawn and quartered" as a public example......but I doubt it.

I run a good show, socialize and help make people happy......and most importantly because I am a bloody capitalist, make a few rubles in the process.

But karaoke used to be a lucrative business.  When I started in karaoke, companies were making $250-350 per night IN clubs up until about 97, now you are lucky if you can find a club to pay more than $100, the price should have went up over the years.  This is when companies actually had to purchase their music instead of the download/P2P sites that they can get an entire library for nothing more than the cost of their time.  Then they go in with the downloads & 9 out of 10 times crappy equipment & do shows for next to nothing.  Turning a lucrative business into a 2nd rate CHEAP/back burner form of entertainment.  Most of these hosts have absolutely no skills, & if you watch many of the favorite karaoke places that had good hosts at one time that tried to save money, probably no longer do karaoke because "it didn't work anymore".  What didn't work anymore is the fact that they hired someone for next to nothing that couldn't do the job & they lost their clientelle & blamed it on karaoke in general.



I went digital a couple years ago myself, although everything in my rig is a 1:1 ratio to each disc I own.  
The fact that bar owners don't care is sad in itself because when it eventually comes down to the point that computer users are getting busted, the bars can quite possibly be fined as well.  



I'm sure you do, and make a few bucks.  Sad thing is you probably could be making more if illegal rigs didn't start appearing in the late 90's.

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[shadow=deepskyblue]I'm impressed, I've never met such a small mind inside such a big head before.[/shadow]

Do we really believe in our heart of hearts that the pirateers and undercutters are going to go anywhere anytime soon?  Even with the constant heat of the RIAA, downloading of mp3s, etc. remains at an all time high.  Same thing with computer virii - a protection company produces a fix, and the hacker just makes a slightly altered version to get around it.

Here's a thought - THERE ARE TOO MANY PEOPLE IN THIS WORLD.

With that said, there is always going to be someone waiting to take your place offering a deal that works for them.  That's right - them.  If it didn't work for them, they wouldn't do it.  For those who host karaoke as their sole source of income, your time has come to either rent a cardboard box or find another line of work.  Karaoke is entertainment, and the business aspect of it has really gone to shxt.  

Sucks, but true.  We all know it and any amount of chatter isn't going to change it.  

Here's another thought - LET'S UNIONIZE.  Huh???  There's an original idea.  Then we could picket outside the bars that are using these undercutters and make completes xsses out of ourselves for thinking anyone really cares but us.

So did selling music equipment and computers. No more.


The supply has increased, and the demand has stayed steady. Why would it have gone up?


You can also get an entire library for about $4,000. I know -- I have one. It may not be the best, but it has 5000 unique songs,legally purchased.

Amortized over 50 shows, that is $80 a show. Over 200 shows, about $20 per show. Not  out of reach at all.


I could lament the loss of the day when I was paid top drawer to fix minicomputers. Now that business is gone.


There is some of that. But there is some of the fact that watching a drunk sing "Sweet Caroline" is not nearly as novel as it once was. Singers want to sing, they don't want to "be entertained". And most people in a bar could care less about how good the KJ is. It enhances the experience, but it doesn't make it.

--snip--

Suggest that you start turning in illegal shows, if you can figure out how to do that. I know that most of the shows around where I am use CDs, and apparently originals. There are very few PC-only shows around here; perhaps it is just the backwardness of my area. But the word is out about people getting busted. I have no reliable reports of it myself, but I have heard KJs talk about being afraid of using pirated music.

In this area, for a KJ who brings their own gear, the going rate is $170 for a four-hour show. Not enough for me to get into the business, to be sure, but there are quite a few making a living at it.

If some more illegal shows get busted, the cost of the illegal rigs will become apparent.

Karaoke KJ'ing for drinks and no other pay is insane and bad for the trade as well.

This is the very reason that I have pulled out of the bars after almost 9 years. The bar owners are common whores when it comes to getting folks to do something for nothing. If they had their way you would be doing it for fun and paying for your drinks as well. I have moved on to private parties and the money is 3-5 times what a single night in a bar would be.

I think it's great that you enjoy being a KJ so much that you are willing to do it for
nothing I feel that everyone has a right to do something that makes you feel good and you have some honest fun. The fact that you are charging nothing is what I have a problem with. If you are in business you need to recoup the cost of your initial investment, continually upgrade your library, maintain the equipment, replace defective gear etc.  If you do not charge adequately for your service you will be dipping into your savings or pocket to do so. The bar is profiting from your generosity and should realize that you too have to make a reasonable sum to maintain the show. The problem is that they will continue to take advantage of that situation for as long as you allow it to happen.

What happens when you get tired of doing it and it is no longer fun to do?

Let's say you stop doing it altogether.....along comes the next KJ and he finds out that you have been working for free drinks, where does that leave him?  Maybe you don't care...but you have set the stage for all future KJ's cause once this bar owner has had something for free, he will be seeking other to follow in your footsteps. Perhaps he will find one maybe not, but once he has had you for free...forget getting a raise.

Each to their own but I don't think that you are showing respect to other KJ's who rely heavily on their income from karaoke to make a living.

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FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

I know several that sell both & they do quite well so where is your point here?



Supply has gone up due to the fact of the illegal rigs & cheap systems with hosts that have no knowledge?  Demand is actually DOWN because bars bought into the cheap entertainment thinking they would do just as good & lost their asses & blamed it on karaoke in general...not the fact that they "got what they paid for (or didn't pay for).  Again, no point has been made.



But the illegals can get that same library for a fraction of that $4K price you paid?



Sorry you rate your self worth as low as you do.



Again, I know people that do quite well in this field.  



Right singers want to sing, good singers want to sing on good systems...you have stated this yourself, the crappy low budget host generally tends to have a less than average system drawing in only the crappy singers or drunken screamers because the better singers will avoid these shows.

[/quote]

If that is the going rate in your area, that is very good!  Around here it's about $100 per night for 4 hours...IF you're lucky!  I used to be able to make a living on legitimate karaoke, it's not possible with all the illegals out there now days, and that has nothing to do with supply & demand, that is plain stealing business illegally!
I PRAY for the day when the illegal rigs start getting busted...even if it means those of us who use computers with legitimate libraries have to go back to using discs!  I would be willing to bet that OVER half of the computer users would rather quit because they are too lazy to use discs or their belief system says they should be able to use computers no matter what the law says (as one of our members here has already demonstrated that he'd rather quit than run legit)!  That would sure bring your "supply & demand" theory down to nothing where the legitimate kj's could go back to charging what they should be able to get...although the damage has already been done to the point that if that ever happened, karaoke in bars will die altogether where NOONE will benefit including the singer!

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[shadow=deepskyblue]I'm impressed, I've never met such a small mind inside such a big head before.[/shadow]

No truer words have been stated!



I also moved to private parties as well.  $500-750 per show every weekend makes up for the lack of club work available.  However I do miss working in clubs, it is fun.



It's matter of self worth to me, someone who lowballs so much that they can't even buy a disc a week after expenses...book printing, slip printing, pens/pencils, equipment upgrade/maintenence, new music (provided you buy any to begin with) all costs money, not to mention the time away from your own personal life...unless you are so sad that the bar IS your personal life...all of this costs money, I don't get how anyone can charge so low of a price unless you flat out don't care????  Charge what you are worth, if you are worth nothing but a pitcher of beer, that's pretty sad in itself!!!!



Have seen this happen as well, they decide oh it's a real job & not fun anymore, they aren't out anything because they don't get paid anything & just say screw it & leave the bar in a lurch.



OH You can't do it for a meal & a drink?  Well then we just won't have karaoke anymore!  See ya!



Not just the REAL kj's, but they have no respect for themselves either because they aren't worth anything appently because they don't charge anything!

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[shadow=deepskyblue]I'm impressed, I've never met such a small mind inside such a big head before.[/shadow]

The thing is, there are people out here in the world that don't see karaoke as a business.  Many people (and I wouldn't call many of them hosts) who do shows for nothing are getting something else out of the deal.  Attention, women, drinks, etc.

To say that these types don't have respect for the 'legit' KJ is absurd.  What is to be said about the man desperate for a job, has a basic level of skills, applies for a job and accepts for 60% of what a truly qualified applicant would make?  This happens all the time and is a business' perogative.

I know when I do my shows (and I charge the going rate for my area), I don't think about other KJs, except for the wonderful advice and helpful tips I take from this forum.  What I do with my gig (which is not my primary source of income) has almost nothing to do with any other KJ.  What I do is bring a relatively quality product to the people.  I take pride in what I do.  People recognize this and as long as karaoke is an important piece of their social construct they'll continue to frequent my show versus one that sucks - unless the bar with crappy karaoke is offering something in addition to the karaoke that is also a draw.  People want to hang out with their friends and will migrate to where their friends are.  

I don't fault someone for working for drinks (or free).  I personally wouldn't do it because I spend too much on music, repairs, and tech advances which is what keeps a good show a good show.  Somebody uses a crappy house system and the owner won't keep it in good order, the show's going to tank or at least develop a reputation for having sucky karaoke - that's been my experience around here.  And yes, the unskilled are the ones taking these gigs for whatever it affords them (attention, women, something semi constructive to do - who knows).  These scrubs generally don't last past six months.  Not calling all who work shows for free scrubs, I think we know the difference.  Actually I don't know if other KJs get paid or not, like I said I don't think much about the makings of other shows other than to level my humble criticisms.  Kudos Doc for doing something constructive with your time.  Wish more people had productive things to do with their time, sure would be a lot less head/heart aches in the world.

Excuse me? Mom and Pop computer and audio stores are a dead -- not dying, dead -- breed where I am from. You might make a living at offering consulting services or selling very high-end stuff. Simple retail sales to consumers are dead, dead, dead.

Supply has gone up for many more reasons than just illegal downloads. Laser disc song prices were $3.00 and up per song, while CDGs brought that down to $1. The gear is much more readily available, and the knowledge base has expanded.


What are you even talking about? I am pointing out that you can obtain the music to do a reasonable show for $20 per show amortized over 200 shows. The equipment will cost a like amount. With gas and insurance taking a similar amount, the $60 cost per show leaves you with $110 profit at the going rate in our area.


Then I respectfully suggest you get out of the business, or focus on private parties and other types of gigs. Or move to another area where pay is better.

One innovative thing I have seen recently is hybrid entertainment, where someone offers not only music but food (like a barbecue roaster).


As I pointed out, there is also the possiblility that some legitimate shows are undercutting your former prices. In our area, the price is at a level that allows someone to make a living, however modest.


Then I suggest you start lobbying your legislators, and contacting local officials and the music powers that be.


Now you just sound bitter.

Buggy whip manufacturers bemoaned the end of their industry as they knew it, too. The world changes, and we have to change with it. Personally I don't lament the loss of the good old days -- I just try to make the best of what the new days provide. Some days that is pretty darn good, I think.

There is no should. There is just what is. If you can see a way to change things, I suggest you do it. But it does no good to just cry about what should be.

Hearing KJs are working for nothing and it is the norm where you live is of course a scary thought to those of us who depend on a pay check at the end of the night. I depend on the money I bring in from karaoke to pay the bills.

I respect your decision to do this although I don't like it. Nothing I can say will detour you from from working for free. You enjoy it and are satisfied with doing it for free, but you also have to see our point that it is a threatening aspect to those of us who depend on our pay checks.

I can just be happy that in my area for now the norm is not to KJ for free. In fact I received an increase in pay a few months ago. A competing bar down the road scared my bar owner that he would lose me. Karaoke alive and well here.

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

I guess my thoughts here are that if too many folks do it for next to nothing or free, then the bar owners are going to accept that as the going rate. I feel that the quality of the karaoke shows will eventually become substandard as a result. The professionals that really care about quality and do it for a living will eventually migrate to a different type of venue to make their money as their ability to earn a reasonable living will diminish.

A different venue...meaning private parties. That means people pay for quality karaoke to come to their home, business, or event. It's a trend that is beginning to happen here in this area as people are tiring of trying to find a decent KJ and system in the bars.

Going to bars for quality karaoke will become increasingly difficult for the patrons. Yeah sure there will always be shows you can go to but it will not be the same as a professionally run show. Frankly many folks that go out to karaoke in my home town don't have a clue of what a professionally run show actually is. Why, because the town is full of small startups or folks working for peanuts. Until they see a professional show they have nothing to compare it to. So for them that is the way karaoke is. Eventually this will be the norm for bars when all the top professionals in the area move on. Hey that is fine for most folks, but for the ones who enjoy singing at a professionally run show....it will be the pits, and for them their days of quality free karaoke are numbered.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but this is the trend that I have seen going on in my area for the past 3 years. I could see the handwriting on the wall and made the adjustment. I do not rely on my karaoke income so it was no big deal to pull 4 nights a week out of my schedule and reduce down to only 1 night. Plus I'm not willing to work for peanuts. I have a ton of money invested in my 3 systems and all the music that goes with it. Every dime of that investment was paid for by money earned from my shows over the past 9 years. I could work for less but I won't as I respect my trade and others within it.

One thing that has happened is that cheap bar karaoke has created a whole new avenue for me to do business and for that I'm thankful for. Many folks are now wanting karaoke to come to them and they drink and sing at home with their friends.

Pioneering KJ's and Bars are responsible for the success of karaoke over the years, however I feel that bars in the future will not be responsible for carrying on that tradition. I may be wrong, but I think not.

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FlipSide Karaoke
Scott

I have the cash and the time to do it.

I could go out and spend the cash on an overpriced sportscar, or countless other pointless displays of wealth (boat, jewelry etc). It so happens that I enjoy karaoke, and I enjoy it more in a small more personal setting (not crowds of 100+ heavy drinkers). The economics of a crowd of 30 people who are not heavy drinkers make it so that the bar expenses and bartender wages eat up nearly the whole take for a night.

Again I repeat, If I went to one of the clubs that attempt to draw crowds of 100 drunken idiots (most who can't sing). They would have to PAY me to KJ there. Specifically I seriously doubt I would go to work at a specific local club even if they paid me $250 a night, while I gladly do a different place for free.

When it comes right down to it, If I can afford to do something legally that I enjoy doing and spend my own money to do it, I feel I am entitled to do so in a free country.

Sure those that entered into the field of Karaoke at the start made some cash doing it. Forgive me if I was not born 15 years sooner, and I could have entered karaoke when it was still profitiable.

As it is, what I feel is killing karaoke in my area is KJs who set up a whole bunch of systems, and then attempt to corner the market for a whole region in karaoke, running all of the bars within hundreds of miles. Like any business when they are working to control the local market they pay attention to quality to push the competition away, but once they control the scene the quality suffers. All the karaoke shows are becoming "clones" of each other. No personality, no specialization, and little motivation to do a "better" job of it.

I went to a bar last night and looked closely at the karaoke system in use. It was not owned by the KJs, they were just employees. When the company moved into the area, they spent some cash (about 8 years ago). But since then they have done little to upgrade their setup. I doubt they have added more than 100 songs to their list over the last year and a half. Also the company, again to save money has gone down several steps in the quality of their KJs. They used to have a couple of DJs that everyone liked. The ones they have now, although nice, just don't have the personality to attract the right crowd. I be the new KJs don't get paid as much.

I dont know exactly for sure but this local company owns about 5-8 rigs and controls about half or more of the karaoke in a large radius, while a second company controls a few more (they appear to be based farther away).

Clearly some of the "employees" at those karaoke gigs dont really care. Some disappear for cig breaks in the middle of the shows. Others dont really keep organized or understand the equipment (since it is not their own). Overall I feel that it is those "for profit" "corparate" karaoke systems that have killed the karaoke scene in my area. If one of the local Kjs employees had ideas to "improve" their show many would think why bother. They get their flat wages regardless, and changes in the way things are done, can only get approval from the absentee owner.

If my activities as a "free" karaoke KJ takes away one of the gigs from the local "corparate" karaoke, it is just an indication that the managment has failed.

I enjoy karaoke, thats why I do it. If the local karaoke companies were putting on shows that were good enough for me and my friends I would not have started being a KJ. I guarantee you that I am doing a more "professional" job as a KJ than many of the other gigs in town that are just working on inertia from a sucessful setup planned out ten years ago.  

Karaoke is music and entertainment. To keep it going requires new blood. The fact that I am shakeing up the local karaoke scene by attempting to put on a better show than my paid competitors, should force them to improve NOT drive down the local quality. As it is the low quality karaoke monopoly in my area has done more to damage karaoke as an attraction in bars than I have.

The drunken idiots that can't sing tend to follow crappy systems in my experience.  Good singers will find good systems & shows...which costs money.



Enjoying something or not, karaoke is still a service which should be paid for - it's still time, labor, equipment maintenence/upgrades, just because YOU can do it for free, don't mean it should be done.  Doing it for free gives bars the impression that why should we have to pay for this when there are people that will do it for free?  



And I am willing to bet that every one of the multiple systems from that company are either illegal systems with either computer downloads/preloaded hard drives or copied discs with MAYBE 1 set of originals to copy multiple times or just plain crappy cheap quality discs for selections?  If they are rolling legit i'd be surprised which again brings me back to piracy is hurting because they don't have to pay for their music...the biggest expense in karaoke.



These employees are probably being paid next to nothing as well.  Pay your hosts well they will take the job quite a bit more seriously.



Again a bar will go with as cheap as they can get, I don't care if you take a job away from the "corp" company, but offering a service for nothing is where I have a problem as it demeans the entire industry because bars will feel they will no longer have to pay for a service that is beneficial to them if people are willing to do it for free or next to nothing.

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[shadow=deepskyblue]I'm impressed, I've never met such a small mind inside such a big head before.[/shadow]

The fact is that many if not most live music acts perform at least initally for next to nothing. No band is going to ask for $500 for their first gig (unless the members have a proven reputation from other bands)

On the other hand a good act can command a high price once they earn a reputation.

Why should it be any different in karaoke. If you are good, then you can command a price to pay for your ablities. If not then don't complain about being undercut.

The price to set up a Karaoke rig is not too far from the price to set up and equip a band. Most bands are going to be thousands of dolars in the hole before their first gig. Many are not going to get paid much until they have done several shows, and then only if they draw an audience.

Further one has to spend the time to develop the reputation that they are worth getting paid. Getting a "living wage" contrary to the politicians is not a "right". It is only a right if the show is worth it to the bartender.

Bars are businesess. Furthermore a bar can look at the daily take each night. It is not too hard for them to figure out how much a Karaoke show adds to their bottom line. Once they learn how good or bad that show is for the bottom line they or someone else would pay for it.

Because there are so many bad bands out there, some of which will not atract any customers except for the drummer's girlfriend. It is the norm to pay them nothing in my area until they have a rep. To get that rep they have to do a few shows for free. Karaoke like live music is the same.

There are more than a few karaoke shows that I have been to that have drawn less than 5 people through the door on the night of the show. For a bar such a KJ is not even worth the free drinks.

Until the karaoke show or band has a reputation, they deserve no pay at all. Once they can prove they are a draw, then their pay should reflect their value to the bar.

Guess you are in the wrong area.


Supply has gone up for many more reasons than just illegal downloads. Laser disc song prices were $3.00 and up per song, while CDGs brought that down to $1. The gear is much more readily available, and the knowledge base has expanded.[/quote]

Supply has gone up MORE due to piracy (music is still the biggest investment in any legitimate system) & people thinking "it's only karaoke" I don't need good equipment & buy the flat out cheapest crap they can find.





I do focus on private parties, actually make more for less work.  That's not the point.  I'm talking club work & the decline of quality because of low ballers & illegal rigs.  I used to enjoy very much doing club work & going out to different shows when I could.  Now it's nearly impossible to find a show that is worth singing at.  WHich is why so many clubs around here are dropping karaoke or doing dj/karaoke leaning more toward the dj side.



I can guarantee that 80-90% of the shows around here anymore are not legit.  I haven't seen a real original disc pulled in a couple years & the ones that have went computerized, their libraries grew from a few thousand to over 50K overnight.



I send letters to our congressman & senators at least once a week.



Why am I sounding bitter, it's already been stated by several here that run computer & one already HAS quit just because of a possible threat that they would not go back to running a disc based show after using a computer - may be because they sold all their originals...who knows, but the fact is many have stated that, maybe not here, but on other forums I frequent as well so the mentality is out there.



Gee I thought this was a forum to discuss & sometimes vent about what could & should be.

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[shadow=deepskyblue]I'm impressed, I've never met such a small mind inside such a big head before.[/shadow]

Actually they seem to be based on a model of $4000 equipment (songs + other gear)+ KJ at $8 hour = $120 show.

Buy secondhand (and second rate) sound systems. By the songs from the cheapest manus to fill in the songbook.

Net profit $80 to the owner of the rig per show.

Pay for rig in about 50 shows. Run about 100 shows per year per rig.

Once the gear is paid for, don't pay any attention to quality anymore as it is ALL profit.

I think that a few of these rigs have been running with little change for a decade, just pure profit for the owner and a low wage second job for the KJ.

If it came down to it, if the ammount they were paid for a gig was only $40 they would still go for it. Just pay the KJ $6 an hour, and take the $10 profit a night. All of the gear and songs were long ago paid for.