Karaoke Forums

I've never been able to figure out the stigma attached to some of our habitat <shrug>  Keeps electric bills down in the winter months  :idea: BUTT,  here's a little secret, you always back in feet first so your arms can still reach the keyboard when extended outwards !

(crawls back up)

btw..  This will be my first post here.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I will ALWAYS opt for the professional entertainer. Reason being those that aren't singing (meaning the vast majority at any given time) are subjected to the sound.. Not all that go to bars are going for the entertainment, or singing etc.. but still, ALL are subjected to either a professional entertainer or one that lacks professionalism and the results of what goes on in each case.  The professional understands what "noise pollution" means to the ears of those of us that are NOT there to sing. Isn't bar entertainment (in this case karaoke) supposed to be entertainment for MANY, taking into consideration the listeners, ALL that wish to participate, and not just the one singer at any given time ?  Well, assuming such, HOW can professionalism NOT matter ?..  Similarly, I might not like "Oh my Papa", or "Green Green grass of home" but if I'm going to be exposed to music at a piano bar that I don't really like,  I'd much rather a professional be performing these songs.. Logic being, this might VERY well make the difference between barely tolerable music, and totally repugnant noise..  I can live with barely tolerable...Hence, NO matter who's singing what, the pro takes into consideration the venue, and takes pride in his show.. ALL benefit ! There's more than "The singer" going on in a venue.  Given one singer at any time, and a bar of 100's, there's no room for the non-professional entertainer.  The person (entertainer) is supposed to be a POSITIVE presence !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Seriously folks, don't blame the pirates alone for a decline in the amount of cash that you get for a gig. Blame the fact that being a KJ can be a fun thing to do and some people get into doing it not for money.


I  had a conversation yesterday with an old karaoke friend. I knew him from a bar which had a great show about 4 years ago (and had since declined significantly in quality for many reasons).

Him and his wife had just started KJing at a new bar and this was their third week. They did not have much of a crowd (about 10) but he mentioned that he had sunk about $7.500 into their setup. He was apparently doing it all legal with purchased cds.

I am starting my gig next week and my investment is about $5,500 so far (but using the bar's amps and speakers allows me to cut some costs).

What do we have in common. We are both getting paid only FREE DRINKS FOR THE NIGHT OF THE SHOW (at two separate bars). Fact is neither of us are heavy drinkers and the shows are costing the bar about 3 beers a night. I think that comes to about $2 a night in wholesale cost to the bar. Probably less for me since I like cheap beer.

Neither of us are what you would call extremely wealthy. My investment was a big chunk of my savings. But we are both trying to put on the best shows we can. Not for money, just because it is a fun hobby. I just skipped a vacation and plowed the money into a karaoke setup.

So yes in the past it may have been a profitable business to be a KJ but some people are catching on that it is fun. Blame that as much or more than piracy for the decline in how much you get to spin the disks.

And yes we both put ourselves into the singer rotation. We both like to sing. Based on how much we are getting paid it is hard to criticize us for that.

OK, this is just gross.  Shame on you for telling these bar owners that being a KJ has literally no value.  I hope a drunk 300 lb man or woman crashes into your equipment  and makes your $5500 investment go right down the toilet, you deserve it.

And yes, you can be criticized for being in the rotation.  It's your own f***ing fault that you're not getting paid, it doesn't exempt you from doing what's expected of a decent KJ.

Yet you also assume in this above model Karaoke as mentioned would've lasted 20 years as a primary source of lounge entertainment and sustained the distant traveling crowd.  It might very will not have assuming as you mentioned "people had to travel great distances to sing once or twice ".  Here's my reasoning. Certain situations since the mid-late 1980's have made that type of travel "to sing one or two songs" (assuming a person is specifically going out for Karaoke) impractical, people don't feel comfortable driving as far to bars as they did 20 years back. I'd speculate based upon your example that it's unlikely such venues despite how professional they were would've remained doable for those living a distance away. My guess is the above example wouldn't have had an indefinite pull, and those living a distance WOULD'VE searched for alternate venues closer to home whether such venues provided Karaoke or not (assuming after a few trips of having to travel only to sit and listen just to sing once people had the option to stay closer to home and go out to listen to a band or real singer)?  It seems to me that after a few times of traveling for the same old situation (where most of the time the participant is sitting and listening, given todays DUI laws, cost of gas, and various constraints making things tougher for bars in general); Rather than sitting and listening to singers who can't really sing, the outlying crowd would've opted to stay closer to home within a relatively short time.  I think Karaoke HAD to become wider-spread HOWEVER, as stated, my preference is to be entertained by a professional beit closer to home, OR further away.. Yet we live in a time of free enterprise where people like to maximize their income and minimize initial expenditure.. Do I think this is ethical ?  Of course not !  It's not fair, and it DOES hurt the ethical business person, and it does have fall-out, but MANY are just out to make the quick easy buck, what can be done ? Sure it sucks.. As does so much of the competitive business world I find crooked. Does this vindicate those that rip off their library? of course not, it's wrong..



I understand how business people wishing to coexist within an HONEST dignified area of entertainment continuing to take pride in what they do (hence caring enough to invest initial capital to do it "the right way") having every right to take umbrage towards those that feel entitled to achieve equal or even near status without abiding by mutually supportive rules designed to keep their craft surviving. The fact that there will always be degrees of dishonesty in ALL areas of business would not make me ANY less annoyed at bar owners that knowingly support such activity, and those participating in it alike.  Nothing wrong with caring about an area, and wishing to see integrity maintained in the area.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

No the fact that I don't get paid is not entirely my choice.

I happen to live in a college town where a lot of people are into music and many do gigs for free or near free just for the experience.

If I was to ask for money for the show, at the bar where my friends already go I probably would not get much of anything, certainly not enough to justify the time and expense.

The situation is If I can explain it, our town had a great karaoke scene that sorta died, (bar moved to new place, KJ moved). I met many good friends singing karaoke with that group of regulars. One of us was going to have to step up to the plate and run karaoke. Several were interested, I was the low bidder, several of us would have done it for free but I could make the biggest investment of time and money into getting ready for it (as well as do it for free). We talked about a cover charge, but if that happens I know a lot of my friends would not come. I prefer to be with my friends. I HAVE A DAY JOB.

Karaoke is entertainment. FACE IT. Many people want to do entertainment right for their own personal satisfaction, not for money. In fact I would say most consider personal satisfaction is the primary reason usually not money.

At last count my town has about 500 active bands. I doubt less than 25 of them have ever been paid enough to cover the cost of their equipment. The cash investment of most rock bands is more than what it takes to put together the equipment for a decent band. No the 500 bands are not ALL garage bands, about 3/4 of them have done public shows in clubs.

With 500 bands in town it takes a level of professionalism to even get gigs. There are many very good bands that fight for the chance to do a free opening act for a visiting band, or a free gig at a good bar. Same with KJing, If I did a crappy show the bar would kick me out even if my service was free, I am going to be at a club frequented by a lot of professional musicians (members of R.E.M. own the building and are regulars), and quality does count. I am privileged to get to do a KJ show there, others would fight for the chance.  

Now you can hope a fat woman sits on my equipment and breaks it. But I will be providing entertainment for my friends. They will look out for  me and my gear and stop that fat woman. If you play shows that attract fat women that destroy equipment, go ahead and charge for your services, you probably should, they sound like they are not the kind of fun I want.

I agree with taking umbrage with those that "do not abide by mutually supportive rules designed to keep their craft surviving." I just don't believe it is the only reason you cant get $300 a show. Barriers to entry into any profession are important. I would prefer a karaoke setting that has someone running it who not only LOVES to be a KJ (and effectively is paying to do it). Also I feel that most of the good karaoke shows are usually run better by someone who is mature enough to have succeeded in the daytime, and has the resources to run a legit show. I have seen shows run by 21 year old college kids, (who pirate songs) as well as dopeheads/drunks who put on crappy shows. I have also seen shows done by mercenaries who obviously really only  care about their fees, and not keeping the patrons happy.

So yes having shows that are not well done hurts the industry. People who go into a bar that has bad karaoke are turned off to the idea. I like karaoke, and I like good karaoke. At last count my town has 9 different places with regular karaoke. Most of them are horrible. The fact that I am not charging for my karaoke does not prevent me from wanting to run the best karaoke show in town.

If you live in a place where you can charge for karaoke, more power to you. I could probably charge for KJing at a different bar, and be with people I don't like. BUT I do this for fun. Also I want to do it the best possible, hence my somewhat obsessive reading of the forums on all of what it takes to make a great karaoke show.

I figure that by putting on a good karaoke show that is legal, I am only helping the industry. The industry is hurt far more by bad shows than people who love to do it and are willing to invest their own money to do it right (including being legit). I am paying my dues to the equipment and song manufacturers. Most KJs who do the shows only for the money put on pretty poor shows. THEY HURT THE INDUSTRY NOT ME.

So to you it's a hobby and you have a day job.  What is your day job?  Maybe some of us will come down and tell your employer we'll do your job for free or for drinks.  Professional karaoke IS A BUSINESS.   If you're not going to run it as a business, stay at home and have home parties for your friends.

Just because you live in a "college town" is no excuse.  We have three universities and quite a few colleges and private post-secondary schools.  These kids have more money than I did when I was their age.  You have allowed the bars to con you and you conned yourself.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

I am sure they would welcome that -- go right ahead.


Want to go around with some burly karaoke host buddies and "persuade" him to not do it?


The neat thing about living in the U.S. is you simply don't need an excuse. It is easy to start a business, and you can start it by giving things away to begin with.

My prediction for the gig is one of 1) it folds after a while, or 2) Fred gets good at it, gets offers from others for money, and eventually the original bar ends up having to pay him because otherwise he will move. Or somewhere in between.


That is on him.

I say more power to you, Fred. I suggest you evaluate your crowd after six months and then start charging. Or at least have the bar give all your friends one free drink when they arrive...

I work as a scientist working on plant genetics at the university. I get paid moderately well for my area, and my cost of living is low. My immediate bosses all know about my karaoke hobby. It happens during my free time.

Just because someone does something as a hobby does not imply that they can not attempt to do it in a serious quality way.

While you complain about the price you can get paid for your gigs, even a modest fee according to the numbers you throw around are excellent.

At $100 a night, 2 nights a week that comes to about 10,000 a year, or about $20 an hour. And that is a low end of the rates that it appears some of you charge.

At the above rate the equipment could get paid off in 6 months.

If you get paid $200 a night and work 4 nights a week it comes to 40,000 a year. About the same as the median family income in the USA. Not bad for 20 hours a week. There are a whole lot of workers that put in full 40 hour weeks in this country for less money, and most of them at jobs that are not fun.

Well the secret is out, and the time that you can expect to make a good living working part time at something that is fun is past. Sure a bit of a supplement for a day job, is not unreasonable for karaoke. But I expect in the future the rates most KJs charge will be under $15 an hour or less. No more even $100 night gigs.

For me I would rather do my karaoke in a bar I like for free than at a bar I don't like for even $100 a night. I have the financial freedom to make that personal choice myself.

Since most karaoke is night time to late, it works well with a day job. Don't be shocked that it happens.

The music industry is largely driven by hobbyist. Not many bands can reasonably expect to make it big and get rich. Only by sorting through the hundreds of good hobbyests are the good musicians discovered.

If I can draw regularly 100 people to my karaoke shows maybe the bar might throw me some money (but I doubt it). If you are not drawing many additional people to the bar where you do karaoke (besides the regulars who would be there anyway) you don't deserve much of a fee.

I know another kj who charged $250 a night. He ran karaoke at a bar I know well, but only probably brought an additional 5 people into the bars on karaoke nights (compared to the regulars that were there before he started being a KJ). Of course the bar stopped paying for the service in a very short time. It was not worth it to them. Pulling an average 5 additional people into a bar is not worth the bar even $50 a night. Hell I have even been in bars where the karaoke was so bad that It made me leave, and I might have stayed and talked to friends if there had been NO entertainment at the bar. How much is that Karaoke worth to the bar if it drives AWAY people? Set your rates accordingly.

I personaly am getting paid by job satisfaction as a kj, knowing I am doing it to the best of my ablitity and showing people a good time.

Well, I'm not a scientist, but I have been acused of being mad(as in crazy)... , but like many scientists, you leave out a few variables in comming to your conclusions. There are many hours of prep, and updating, not to mention, setting up and breaking down. This lowers your hourly figure. You missed the good times, when we had to haul around 500 cds, and good ones were going for 30 dollars a pop. It's nice to start out with everything on a small hard drive, and huge libraries to be had for cheap. Let's throw in the fact, that everybody doesn't have the personality, and the mixing skills(a goof ear for music helps) to be a good KJ. Around me, 200 dollars an hour is par for a simple computer spinning DJ. Also, gigs come and go, so you sure as he!! can't put an annual projected income on being a KJ or a DJ. You jump into the game late, and now you're gonna try to explain how the game is played, though the rules seem to be ever changing.... ......IMHO there is nothing wrong with doing it for free, that is your business. Many KJ/DJs start out free, or cheap to bump someone, but then raise the price, as they find out they aren't making much money...it's called undercutting. "Buyer Beware!" in the vast majority of cases, you get what you pay for, so carry on. You can only work so many venues, and there will always be places willing to pay a decent buck for my sevices. I like when a customer hires me, and asks.."now you're going to do it, right? I mean, don't send us a substitute, we like/want YOU!".........

You'll always be a real rocket scientist in my opinion Johnny  :hug:

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Actually...Gynecology is my hobby.....  :D ......wanna smell my fingers.....

In my town regular gigs run about 3-4 hours of actual karaoke. I added 1-2 hours of setup and prep time per gig. I counted 5 hours per gig in my hourly estimate.

Most of the preparation time goes into the initial setup, and the incremental prep time of new books, new cds, replacement of equipment etc is modest on a weekly basis.

Sure I don't include the good times of carying 500 cds around when CDs were $30 a pop in my estimate of current costs. But then again you don't charge the bar to stable your horse when you ride your waggon to your gig anymore. Times have changed, the costs of karaoke have fallen. Good CDs are regularly in the $15 range, and often less with a bit of shopping. Legal or not the standard has become some form of hard-drive karaoke, or at the least multidisk changers.

I can see times have changed. If I were looking to start a karaoke gig 10 years ago it would have been very difficult to start. I would have to really put in some effort in learning what, and where to buy the equipment/songs. Now anyone that has the internet and a credit card can have a better (and leagal) karaoke setup after 5 hours of online shopping than most places had 10 years ago, at half the cost.

If I do or dont have the "ear" to be a great DJ/KJ will require time to asses. All I know is that many of the local KJs are NOT good in this respect. In any case the fact that I am doing it for free does not change if I am well qualified or not to be a KJ. Plenty of paid DJs cant cut it.

Sure I am jumping into the KJ field "Late in the game" but I can see it as the current reality now is, not how it was. Sure undercutting is a problem and many KJs in this town have been undercut. The net result is that the fees bars will pay have reached the bottom. The only way to get a gig now in my town  is to not only be cheap but also be better than the other KJs that will also do the job for nearly nothing. I know about a half dozen former KJs in my town that probably still have their gear, but have been unemployed at any local bars for some time.

At the same time I do this for fun. There are a few bars in town where I would not do a gig even if they paid me $300 a night. Others I would gladly do it for free.

Dont worry about people who do KJing for free too much, I am not at all interested in doing 3-4 shows every week. Once a week is plenty.

Finally dont forget I live in the south. One can still buy a brand new house for a bit over 100k in my area. Costs are low. Many of my friends work for minimum wage or just above. One recently described a 30k a year job as an impossible dream. Just because you are a KJ is is not a right to earn a living wage. For the vast majority of people being a kj/dj is probably a second job at best, if not a hobby.

Finally if the bar ends up deciding to pay me $200+ a night because I draw crowds it just means for me that I will have a legal 30,000 song list in a couple of years.

Dr. Fred,

Don't listen to the naysayers.  How many paperboys lost their jobs to the Internet?  Think they didn't log into their favorite paperboy forum and complain?  Of course they did.    That's all that's happening here.  You've got a certain faction that has sunk their very existence into karaoke and are hell bent on keeping it all to themselves so they don't have to do anything else with their lives (or can't).  When someone comes along and does what they do (because they like it) they get upset because it's cutting into their livelihoods.  See, nobody would do my day job for free.  

I like the pocket money.  I average about $125 a show.  That's pretty much at or above the going rate for a steady KJ in my area.  But above that I do it because it makes me the center of attention.  People come to see my show.  Why?  Because I care.  Because I impress the girls.  Because I give the people what they want.  Because I buck convention for the sake of popular opinion.  Because I don't think that Karaoke is such a purists profession that I (an admitted amateur) can't put on a show for my drinking buddies and provide a level of entertainment that's worth my time.  Because I put a lot of me into my shows, and I'm a damn cool guy (most of the time).  

If I owned a bigger home, I'd probably be having parties every weekend and doing the same thing.  It's music man!  Music is the universal language.  It makes people dance, sing, laugh, cry, remember, forget and in the odd case kill.  Point being, I, that's right (lonely old me) get to be the Maestro.  I can lead people like a pied piper, I can influence a crowd with the push of a button, I can make girls wanna jiggle, I create pseudo singing sensations, and give people an outlet to serenade, dream, show off, etc. etc.

We all sit here at our computers and profess to do all this for the singers.  Most of the singers that come to my shows couldn't carry a tune in a bucket.  Some actually make me cringe.  Others sing okay.  I sing okay.  Do I want to play babysitter to a bunch of drunk strangers that don't give a rats (@$%&#!) about my equipment.  No, but I have to sometimes to be able to get what I want out of it.  I'm a local celebrity.  I'm the Karaoke Guy.  Not one of the karaoke guys (cause there are a few others around).  I'm talking I'm the Karaoke Guy.  I have a reputation that proceeds me.  I like that.  I'm not an egotist.  I'm a realist.  I like playing music.  I like the attention it garners.  I like the little hottie that jumped up on me Wednesday night, who threw her legs around me as we made a groove together, She said, and I quote ... "I would have so much fun with you".  She wasn't talking about playing cards.  She's coming back tonight and if the opportunity presents itself I'm going to take advantage of it.  The girl I'm supposed to be seeing is playing games with me this week and I'm not in the mood.  Apologies ... I digress.

I have a day job too.  I work in Middle Management in a corporation.  Again, nobody's going to do that for free.  But then again it's not much fun.  I do it to pay the bills.  I have to be functional at work and Thursdays I'm riding on less that four hours of sleep.  It's hell on me.  Why do I do it?  (See above).  I love karaoke and for those of you that like doing it for nothing or next to ... more power to you.  It's entertainment and if you choose to make a living out of it you have to roll with the punches.  Some people get paid to be on the stage, while other (street performers for one group) do it because they get the same things I do from hosting a karaoke show.  We're entertainers.  Hi five Dr. Fred!!!!!  

I think any job is fun when you first start it. The newness of it and gaining knowledge of something I've never done before is energizing. I just hope it stays that way for you. I know it was fun for me at first than it became a job. If it wasn't for good people and a pay check at the end of the night, I certainly would have stopped doing it from burn out.

I understand most people in bands do it as a hobby, not a living. Singing is a passion for me, but when it comes to running karaoke my job is to let them sing, not me. If I was doing karaoke as a hobby it would mean going to different bars and singing as a patron. You must mean you enjoy running a sound system as a hobby, right?

Not meant as an attack - just an observation  :D

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[shadow=pink][glow=deepskyblue]. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

Psssst Johnny, PM me

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I mean I run a fair, consistent, popular show, that allows me (on slow nights) to sing too.  I usually only get one song in because the crowds have been pretty crazy lately.  I am music baby, hear me roar!!!!!!!

I had to come to grips with a few things back in the late 70's early 80's when local bars cut revenue for 7+ piece horn bands making a tough existence to begin with come to an end, and those of us that belonged to music unions and supplied what crowds wanted couldn't find local jobs due to small crap sounding trios, one man playing guitar and singing to a tape, 4 piece noise makers, DJ's etc..


1)  I was banging my head against a wall concerning myself with ANY aspect what-so
     ever regarding my competition, and this encompassed whether they were legit,
     qualified, sucky, etc.. IT DIDN'T MATTER what I thought if bars were hiring    
     them

2)   So, Who was I annoyed at ? People for supporting the venues that hired the
      entertainers that I lost jobs to because to me certain things mattered that
      OBVIOUSLY didn't matter to the crowd, and the bar didn't care.. Yeah, it's
      maddening in free enterprise when we lose jobs to those we deem as "crooks"
      problem is, who ends up with the ulcer ?  I do... Neither the venues or the
      crooks give a rats patooty how I feel. The business world doesn't care what
      Kaplans ethical constructs consist of.  I was a small guy employed by bar
      owner{s} that JUST wanted to save money. The owners of these venues
      made their own decisions, I had no control of a process I saw as wrong. I
      had to accept that I was having a tough time finding jobs, and although I liked
      letting off steam. I had to resign myself to the fact that *I* was having a
      tougher time making ends meet. There was NO way I could change the course
      of events effecting the venues or environment of my employment. I also  
      had no amount of pull regarding changing that which I felt was F'ed up
      because  the bars and undercutters and other factors ended my time as an
      entertainer... Wasn't just ONE single aspect. Payout DID decrease, today bar
      payout has decreased once again do to seemingly extraneous squeezes    

What can we do when it's tougher to find jobs (regardless of why) ?   I think there's SOME merit to what many are saying meaning, YES,  it's wrong for undercutters to steal music others  had to pay for and there's no question about this BUT who the heck are ANY of us really PO'd at ? We blame the competition *yes they may be crooked but they stillfall into competition) however they couldn't work assuming the bars really cared about their legitimacy. Isn't this true ?  IOW..  What's wrong with the picture when the kid fishing in the local pond going around knocking on doors selling bass off've his flexible-flyer wagon gets yelled at for the larger licensed health-inspected fish store getting shut down because folks aren't buying from them any longer? It's a similar situation, there IS a demand that's created by the employee. It's the process of free enterprise whether we like aspects of it or not is moot.. business IS business when so much is said and done.. Problem as i SEE IT...(and YES, I know ethical is THE BEST way to but the entertainment business has never been pristine and clean) BUSINESS PEOPLE ARE HIRING THESE FOLKS. This is not unlike our debate over in "Build a wall to keep out immigrants", liken these undercutters to immigrants that jump the border enterting our country illegally. Don't the fact that businesses WANT them also create a problem ?

So, there's a demand, or even if the unprofessional undercutters create the demand why not get PO'd at venues that employee these undercutters ? Where there'smoney handed out there're undesirables and even folks that don't need it as much as others standing in line to hoard it.  Either way, ultimately IS IT going to make a difference if I'm the only one spitting blood as an entertainer who's out've work and doesn't like what I see happening in a job market involving my craft ?


Who's at fault ?  Bars and non-pro undercutters ripping off the industry ?  Both are wrong, but both are surviving.. In the meantime I'm pointing fingers frustrated however the reality is (as it was for many musicians in the past) our time is up in that area.. We can deal with it,  and stay angry, or accept that there's A LOT crooked in the business world with both employer and employee and look for work elsewhere hoping we don't end up internalizing our impotant rage hating a craft we once loved that we can still resort to  at times or as a hobby yet in a different capacity..
Get mad at these multiriggers ?  How could they exist assuming there was no demand ? Venues hiring them is a problem, but HOW will any of us change that ?.. Do you fight city hall, or move to a new city ?  
I loved being in funk bands.. I had no control over the fact my employers no longer wanted to pay us what we wanted or deserved.. THEY made the choice not to.



I think this is great however what do we do when demand doesn't wish to pay out what's commensurate with skill and finds supply that it deems will suffice for less  payout and the supply and demand in this market BOTH are QUITE satisfied in too many cases compromising values ? Values, or in this case our ethics take backseat to greater profit margin and this is the problem, it's  both ends of this model that are satisfied being wrong.  The supply and demand end doesn't care currently.. It's a city hall fight in which you might be putting the cart before the horse. Bars are hiring these individuals because THEY DON'T want to pay for the pro's.. They are feeding the supply of wrong-doers.  These employers have choices.  Look at it this way.. DESPITE your own ethical constructs what you are saying in essence is "Knock off my competition, and it's easier for me to get paid more".  How realistic is this and how conducive would implicit policing be to free enterprise ?

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Sad thing is with undercutters, even if they don't have the expenses or are completely illegal, they don't ever raise prices even after gaining experience.  Most of them state they do it to get their foot in the door (all in the while chopping someone elses off) or to gain experience, once you get there, up your prices!  Prices over the years should have gone up for companies as karaoke was gaining it's popularity & prices were going up, up until the easily accessible cdg copiers came on the scene around 96-97, then it made it easy for people to "borrow" discs to create a free library for themselves, then the downfall for the professional host started & the hobbyists, illegals & "for fun" hosts came in that didn't really care about the job, just wanted a quick buck.  If & when it became a "real job" to them, they weren't out any huge investment & basically left the bars in needing someone to fill in for the karaoke nights their host now abandoned.  Before the piracy age & undercutter age...yes it has always been there, but all the prices were relatively kept in perspective, $250-350 per night was not uncommon there were actually  some companies making upwards to $500 per night IN CLUBS, granted the larger clubs, but rarely lower than 250-350 except for smaller hole in the wall clubs that couldn't make that back on a packed night.  Why did the bars pay it, because that was a going rate, and with inflation & all, those rates were starting to climb.  In comes illegal discs & undercutting begins, not dramtically at first, but as more & more illegal systems came about, the prices started going down & down & the bars were paying it making this the new going rate.  Around here, you are LUCKY to find a club willing to pay more than $100 per night.  What was a lucrative business  is a now a faultering joke because you cannot maintain decent equipment...provided they have any in the first place, I guess they can get music updates all day with the internet downloads, but at what quality, ripped at a bitrate sub cd quality?  We used to pay our HOSTS $100 per night because they were worth it & cared about karaoke enough.  Now if a company wants to make any money, they will have to do it themselves or hire crappy hosts that don't give a rip about sound quality/rotation skills/people skills...basically the lost ART of karaoke hosting.
People that do it cheap or for free (bar tabs are for free IMO as most companies worked a bar tab into their negotiations on top of the nightly pay) are shorting themselves while hurting the entire pricing structure as a whole...they go in to a bar with karaoke & say they can do it cheaper, bar likes to save money & goes with the cheaper company, later on another company comes in & says they can do it cheaper, bar says great, kicks out the other undercutter for this new undercutter with even lower prices, soon after that ANOTHER undercutter comes in & the process repeats until the bar is paying virtually nothing for their entertainment because they know they can, the quality of karaoke hosts/equipment/skills are going to go down hill because they really just won't care once their FUN hobby does in fact become a job and quits, now the bar drops karaoke altogether because they can't find another cheap host, most are out of business & they don't want to go back to paying the premium prices for a good host so karaoke dies.  It can & will happen, it already is & has here.   We used to have over 600 active karaoke clubs in Western Washington not less than 5 years ago, now it's under 260 or so.
 
Your time isn't worth anything more than a few drinks?  Mine sure is.  Hobby, for fun, or whatever, don't give a bar the impression that they can get free entertainment because they will get it in their head & expect it from all.

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[shadow=deepskyblue]I'm impressed, I've never met such a small mind inside such a big head before.[/shadow]

TTT, While I agree with you. Here is what I believe.  Is it realistic or reasonable to request these hack entertainers or any unprofessional employee (not unlike the kid that might knowingly be taking a job only for two weeks to pay for pot yet lying at the interview) to be the ones that "train" the sources of employment (demand side) what to get used to ?  Seems in doing so we make it appear that the demand side of the business model is totally incompetent (and while some believe bar owners are ), Ultimately it's the employer that decides what he wants for entertainment in his bar and assumes risk as with ANY employee who might turn out to be a thief. The guy surely knows as a business person "Get the free KJ" and you often get what you pay for..  Cheap and unprofessional especially assuming the higher costing entertainment is a safer likely longer term bet.. It seems to me the business person at this stage is knowingly willing to take risks.  HIS values become the problem that feeds this cycle IMHO..  Can we expect our competition to play by our fair rules ?  I wish we could to be honest... but.. the overall situation IMHO becomes pretty sad.. hiring venue and hack employee

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".