Karaoke Forums

No matter how many people both pro and con debate this issue, there is only one and true truth about it...
Here it is plain and simple..........................

Many, many years ago when Karaoke was in it's infancy, there were a very select venues that had karaoke, truth be known they really didn't think it would take off like it did.
The start up costs were very high, after all, it was a new twist in the music world and with the creation of cdg's, we in the business accepted it as part of having an unique business.
Well, like any great idea or invention came the snake oil merchants and/or scam artists, who figured on a way to make a quick buck, so they thought why not find a way to duplicate, this way it would be cheaper and no one has to go to the big karaoke suppliers to buy their stuff.
Common thought is that supply and demand if done right could balance itself out, in other words, if the demand is so high and people are willing to pay for it, they could basically set whatever price would dictate to make the sale, if no one was buying anymore, they price would obviously go down.
Well here's where the pirateers screwed us all and I mean all, whether you believed in it or not.
There were few places that had a legitimate karaoke show, KJ's who actually invested time and money to run a professional show, so, people would travel great distances to participate, even if they sang once or twice that night, the ambience was spectacular and of course the revenues were great.
Now here's where it all went wrong and may possibly kill karaoke as we all know it.
Pirateers, would copy their entire library and sell it to any person who wanted to start a new business with little or no money nor expertise.
What they failed to recognize is that those persons that they sold or burned cdgs for, in turn found out how to do it, thus "OVER SUPPLING" the industry with not only many bad karaoke shows but also too many locations that would sprout up...
In other words, in the past a good karaoke show would pay us $350 to $500 and up but when bar owners found out that someone could do it for substancially less. obviously they sold out to the cheapest rate, even if it meant below par shows.
Well thats where the problems lie.
A large establishment stop karaoke shows or reduced the pay because the "demand" wasn't as great, but rather because "joe's bar" down the street as well as every dive bar on every street and every nook and cranny had karaoke.
Now for those that thought by selling or duping for friends and small time karaoke enthusiasts, that this wouldn'y have an effect or even in some minds thought it was not illegal since it was to go to a private user, what they failed to realize is that, these people would no longer have to go a specific bar where there was a two hour wait to sing but in fact could go to a location that had no library to speak of and bring their own discs and sing all night...
What a shame, have we stooped that low to where we rather substitute a good professional show and go down to the corner bar and sing from plastic microphone and tin cans and a string for sound, just so that you can sing more often?
I know alot of people may go to other shows rather than wait to sing in one of my venues but at least I respect everyone's time and effort and will never skip nor bump someone up, especially if they offer money or body parts.....
I think 17 staright and very profitable years  of doing karaoke and most importantly, knowing that I believe I maintain the righteous, morally, and professionally managed gigs, I am proud to call this my profession.

Respectfully
Rodney

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Karaoke is supposed to be fun, if it isn't, then it's NOT KARAOKE.......

What, stooped so low that singers want to sing?

This is the attitude which browns me off among hosts.  An ego that thinks it is about "your show". No, sorry bud -- it is about the singers singing. That is the attraction of karaoke. You ain't it.

A well-done show is nice. I like to see it, and it makes it better, no question. But if I don't get to sing, I am not coming. And I won't sit around for hours waiting for it, either. Maybe you can find some that do -- fine. I am guessing for them it is more about going to the bar. That is fine too. But singers wanting to sing is not "stooping low". Geesh.

I guess we are different out here We bought every cow we ever milked every horse in in our pasture and our dogs are family and yes Babs we do have kittys that live inside.. In SOME parts of the state a worker can still leave his tools in the back of his pickup during happy hour. People think think Im an (@$%&#!) when I go ballistic about government control We still live in America

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Mr. Rodney....do you play all original disks, nothing changed to another format?....if not.....get down off your high horse....you can't break the law up to a point where you feel comfortable with it......if you use all original cdgs, or legally bought zips, nothing burned from original disks to disks, or disks to hard drive.....then ride on brother.......sometimes we all fall short of the glory of the karaoke gods........ ........I know, I know....you say this "is" the way you do it....so tell St. Peter not to wait up for the rest of us............I love this guy.....  :worship:  :worship:  :worship:  :worship:  :worship:  LMAO

High horses have nothing to do with it...
Now as to whether or not I used cdgs in the original formats..."HELL YES"..
And if a cdgs got scratched/stolen/or just woudn't work anymore, I bought new ones to replace it.
There are many people I see online here that would vouch for my character, such as Lonman, knightshow, as well as Peter Parker and Manny Pacheco, who happens to own this site and the Karaokescene !
Yes, I started when karaoke was a new fandango toy.
I'm not a rookie to karaoke my friends, research and you'll find out I've been in it for a long time, 17 plus years, I was even one of the very first few who started the A.K.A. which stands for American Karaoke Association..
It was an attempt to have purchasing powers that would allow many of us professionals to buy wholesale and actually get songs that we really wanted, not to mention higher pay schedules,insurances,equipment, and much more.
Unfortunately it took just one or two hosts who used the "I" terms rather the "We" terms and it fizzled out.
You all can do what you, I'm not the karaoke police nor profess to be so, I just wish you all would look at the bigger picture and see where Karaoke started from and where it's headed....
The law is the law, changing formats, whether or not you possess the original is still illegal.
Now about the cows, leaving your tools in an open area is fine in some places and granted would be nice to return to a pleasant time but I guess a cow thief is still a cow thief............
BTW, I take it, you wouldn't mind singing at any show if it's illegal or not?
I face reality, people steal,cheat,and lie and there's nothing I can do about it but to just not say anything does that make it go away?
Funny cause the real issue is never mentioned when it comes to those who support piracy, it's like an Alcoholic never admit they have a problem....
Yes there are many things I probably do wrong in my day to day life but I seriously try to do better or at least the right thing is usually my first choice...
I'm no better than you and wish not to be, as I can only stand on my two feet and not ontop of anyone to make myself better...
Respectfully
Rodney

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Karaoke is supposed to be fun, if it isn't, then it's NOT KARAOKE.......

#1- Singers could give a ratz azz if the song they are singing is legal or not
Thats just the fact ! --and nor should they, singers should be able to go in to any place that is advertising karaoke and sing without questioning the legality of it.

I commend anyone who stand by their principles, sure multi rigging with illegal hardrives or burns hurts the industry.  But there are few people who can sit on any forum based site and PREACH what is right or wrong.

Karaoke is mainstream and home based now ... Get your $5 cdg at Wal-Mart and copy away !!   Just like cd's in the past Karaoke will be no different
people will copy and share.

It's great to see individuals who still play by the rules. Unfortunately, people like you, never seem to make it very far in the political arena......

Here is my last response to your rambling whitespaceless rants. (You want karaoke hosts to have a high-quality legal show, why can't you produce high-quality posts?)

You are pretty desperate if you want to try and cast blame on the singers who frequent shows for your problems. Will bars pay you $500 to do a show nowadays? No. Will there be bars who undercut you? Absolutely. There are plenty of things you can try and do about that, starting with reporting venues to ASCAP/BMI and RIAA and trying to get them busted. Perhaps more practically, you can advertise that you have 100% legal and licensed music which insulates the venue from legal issues. That plants the seeds in bar owners minds that perhaps others don't have licensed music, and that they have legal exposure.

But to cast blame on the singers for wanting to sing, where somehow they are supposed to know that the karaoke is illegal and avoid the shows, is pretty low. Sure, I can suspect that some shows are illegal. I can even tell you that with a certain amount of certainty after singing there once. I will tell you that I am one in a hundred, though. Most singers would not even have that cross their mind -- they have no clue at all.

As far as this caca about professional shows, it is even more clueless. Singers want to sing. If they sound good and/or have fun, they will tend to come back. If they don't they won't. If a show has "plastic microphones" I won't come back myself. Personally, I won't come back if you have some VHF wireless garbage mic with plosive pops, either. But I am picky. Other people will have other standards. And it sorts itself out -- hosts with lousy sound don't last long.

There are shows that are about big crowds with lots of singers, and there are shows that are about a few singers and a smaller crowd. When all there were was the former, not many people got to sing. Obviously the world didn't care enough that the "ambience was spectactular". Maybe you liked that as a host, but I doubt I would have liked it as a singer.

All of this has nothing to do with legality of songs. That is an issue which is resolving itself over time. All your moralizing and righteousness here is going to make exactly zero difference. Eventually, I believe, the pricing issue will resolve itself with license packages that allow use of all music, similar to what BMI/ASCAP does for performance licensing. But it will be a while....and the singers have not a darn thing to do with it. So take your FUD and stick it somewhere, please.

I was standing on my balcony the other night.  It looks down into the parking lot.  As I made eyeballs around the place I noticed a bill laying on the ground next to a car (the guy who lives below me).  I don't know him.  I walked down and picked up a $5 bill and put it in my pocket.  I had a conversation with myself on my way back up stairs.  If it had been a $20 or $100 I would have knocked on his door and given it back to him because that could very well have been what makes or breaks his rent for the month.  $5 ... so the dude doesn't eat at BK one night and has to heat up some leftovers.

In unrelated events:  We have about 9 bars in our town in a three block radius.  Only two of us do Karaoke on more than one night a week.  The karaoke in the other places suck.  That's not my opinion - well it is, but it's one that's shared by the masses.  Singers come out to sing.  Some come out and sing because they like to hang out with the people, others because they enjoy singing.  

I've been doing Karaoke for a few years now and have never been asked if my stuff is legal.  People don't care.  People want to sing and dance and let loose.  People do care about consistency, selection, and sound quality and a host that treats them with respect - even if they suck beyond words.

If KJs made $500 a show, I'd quit my day job.  A lot of venues are running seven nights a week.  You do the math ... $500 x 7 x 4 = $14,000 a month for the KJ who hosts that gig.    $168,000 a year.    Not gonna happen in my lifetime.  The average lawyer makes $90,000.  Let's be reasonable.

People in the industry have to adapt.  The Manufacturers, the Policing Agencies, the bar owners, and especially the KJs.  We're all looking to make a dollar, but remember who's giving us that dollar and try and think about what they want.  If you can't, your bar owner is going to find someone who will and at a much cheaper price.  That's just business baby ... plain old American made capitalistic business.

mckyj57 your quote of...Here is my last response to your rambling whitespaceless rants. (You want karaoke hosts to have a high-quality legal show, why can't you produce high-quality posts?)

simply goes to cement in my mind what a fool you really are. I have sat and read your attacks on people and your egotistical "me me me" posts and wondered if you really are the egotistical dickhead you appear to be.

I think you have proved beyond a doubt you work hard to maintain your dickhead status.

Why not try being an under achiever sometime and see if that makes you more likable

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Hey Vicki, looks like we found a new name for hypocrosy!

lmao you shaking your head in wonder as well Murray? I cannot believe someone could be that self involved...it would suprise me if he ever heard the postman blow his whistle, he is soooooo damned far up his own backside!

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

No words coud be truer!  I remember when starting out laserdiscs were the new thing replacing the tape with a printed lyric sheet.  The cost of the discs were anywhere from $150-200 PER disc.  A company could set their price & get it.  Karaoke was alot more than a bunch of screamer singers back then, there was a huge comradity among the crowd, everyone tried to get to know everyone, applause was never asked for it was just given after every performance...good or bad.
Then cdg's come out, then the way to copy them, then the theives & undercutters with their illegal libraries going in to bars saying I can do this for half the cost.  Not to mention half the quality or worse for many of them.
THe new karaoke of today has none of the original characteristics, there is much back stabbing, people talk about others, people take claim to songs getting po'd if someone else even thinks about singing it.  Most today don't even know a good system & host anymore, they accept the fact that crap sound coincide with karaoke because they haven't heard the decent systems of the past, when hosts cared about their singers & making them sound the best they can.  Few here still demonstrate that lost art, but many claim that none of that is even needed.
It's sad really, karaoke is going by the wayside because of these attitudes, & no I don't blame the singer, they shouldn't HAVE to worry about whether a company is legal or not, but if they find out one isn't on the up & up, they should spread the word & boycott to get real quality back in their favorite singing spot.

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[shadow=deepskyblue]I'm impressed, I've never met such a small mind inside such a big head before.[/shadow]

Well we didn't make $500 a show for clubs, but we did average anywhere from $250-350 per show & got it, I started working with a company in 89 & started my company in 91.  We also had 5 systems & had 3 of them working at least 5 nights a week at those prices & the other 2 working private parties at double those rates, although not regularly.  Many DID quit their day jobs because the pay was so good.  Up until about 97 when piracy/undercutters really popped on the circuit, we were making our asking price per night in clubs.  Now we are lucky to find a club that will pay $100 a night, which is why I finally hung up all club work & do strictly private parties now, still at my asking price $500-700 per show.  But I did have to get a real job again.



But if the bars really knew if their karaoke was legal or not & the ramifications could be, they may think twice especially if there could be possible fines & license revocations.

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[shadow=deepskyblue]I'm impressed, I've never met such a small mind inside such a big head before.[/shadow]

Rodney is a true hold out to the knights of the round table! : )

Seriously, he's always been legit, and bemoaned the whole digital age when it comes to karaoke. Unfortunately, many CD+G users have little patience for those of us that want to come to the 21st century. I will admit though, that Rodney's fears have ultimately proven true.

Many karaoke manus are coming to a complete halt on their production. Rising costs due to piracy and to artists greed are making it impossible for the cd+g manus to compete...

I took a common sense application to the cd+g discs. To me, if I owned it, I could duplicate it. The manus weren't out anything. SC initially agreed with this philosphy, and then when the rampant disc sharing of kjs became overwhelming, they backed off that stance... used to be you could use a copy while waiting for the replacement disc to come in the mail... no longer.

Of course, other factors helped with the digital age. Rare and discontinued discs...

Ultimately, there's two seriously divided camps among those that are faithful to the manus. Those that use the original discs, and those that use the computer with the converted files stored therein.

Unfortunately, the manus look at the latter as the same as those that don't even pay for their material... and as long as you have serious fingerpointing like that, you'll alienate your customer base...

In many ways, in trying to stop and combat the piracy, the manus shot off their own foot!

Sometimes there's just no solution. Hang on to your disks, they will be hard to find in the future......

The CDG Manus that are flailing are probably the ones that don't produce quality work.  There is still a huge market for SC and CB among a few others.

HUGE market?

SC hasn't produced a disc in three months, and so far, other than a hint, they may not get one again produced THIS YEAR...

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SC JUST announced that they'll have a new disc or two out in a few weeks... so gimme that big plate of steamin' crow! !