Karaoke Forums

Hello
This is my first post here and I'm not really used to writing in forums (yet) so bear with me.
If I am posting this in the wrong section, I also apologize.

A bit about me.. I just recently started playing in my first real band called Ronkedosis. 9 years ago I started playing bass.
My gear has always been second-hand stuff, but now that my band is starting to record some demos we needed better instruments, amps and such. Someone then sent me a tip about this forum and so here I am.

Anyway, I just wanted to share my band's rig so far. Most of it was ordered from
Musical Webworld
- Ibanez Iceman IC400 guitar
- BC Rich Widow Bass (we just discovered this model is back on the market after seeing an article about it over at EvilAxe
- Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier guitar amp
- Behringer 2x12 Bass Amp combo (this one rocks!)
- Yahama Rockstar 8-piece drumkit (you should have seen our old drummer's kit, )
- Yamaha DX800e Keyboard

Now to my first question:
Does anyone here have some tips to share on mixing up a good rock/prog sound with such a setup?

Cheers,
Derek

Hi Derek:

Well, you're kinda in the wrong forum.  This is for karaoke which is a far different matter than live sound although we do have our share of audio mixing wizards.  I have been in and out of bands most of my adult life and even spent some time working in studios and from your description my best advice would be, hire some time in a recording studio.  They will have the right equipment and know-how to make you sound your best.  Show up, in tune and practiced ready to play because studio time is spendy!

The cheap hit and miss way to do it is to use ambiant mics at a live performace and hope for the best.  Louie Louie was done in one take on one mic and it worked out all right for the Kingsmen.  Gook Luck.

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Okay, who took my pants?

yep an investment of studio time is going to mean you can concentrate on the quality of music played rather than levels and knob twiddling...good luck

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Yep,

It's really all about micing what ya got backline and vocal......The mixing part is easy compared to micing.

Google up "micing instrument amps" and backline amps. Drum micing in itself is a science and requires special mics and outboard gear.

Us karaoke guys only deal with micing vocals and they are easy in comparison.

Depends on whether you have a soundman or not running your system, the size of the club you are doing, how many singers & what your PA consists of.  To mic it up correctly you'd need at least 20 channel mixer.  

What I use to 'mic' it up would be:
SM57 on the guitar amp slightly off axis and not in the direct center of the speaker.
D112 on the bass amp - if it has a direct out channel i'd run this one as well & to a blend - slight compression if needed.
AKG D112 on the kick (2 if there are 2 kicks), AKG C418 on upper toms (these are condensor mics & require phantom power), SM58 on floor toms, either an SM57 or a C418 on the snare (sometimes would do the 418 on top & the 57 underneath with a blended mix), 3 AKG C1000 condensor mics - 2 for overheads & 1 for high hat.  Running through 8 channels of gating & compression on kicks & lower toms at minimum.
Keyboard direct to mixer.
SM58 for vocals - as many as needed.

Now this would be for a full blown setup.  Get a level & eq adjustment for each mic individually - set your gains, channel eq's & general fader level - especially on drums, you want them to sound even - no toms that are louder/softer than another when the entire kit is played.  If your mixer has subgrouping capability, you may group all the drums to 1 subgroup channel once you have a good mix of them individually, maybe backup vox to one subgroup channel - main vox will go directly to mains.  Guitars may be grouped as well depending on situations.

In some smaller clubs the only thing I would mic is the kick/snare & vocals.

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Lonnie I am proud of you that was a very good post Only thing I can add with the 57 on the guitar amp there is a sweet spot Experiment with mic position to get the reverbs and sounds out of the amp Double mic the the drums and like lonnie says gate and compress them.

Bottom line You can have 400 million dollars in gear  It takes talent to make music...

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With a 57 the off axis & off center tends to work for most amps & is my initial standing point, if once the sound wasn't right in the mains, then I would likely readjust - provided it wasn't one of those nights where you needed to get the next band up NOW & mix/adjust on the fly - hate those nights!

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What mic do you hang in those high upright drums like the samba or whatever you call them?

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Not sure what kind of drums you are talking about?  Guess I would have to hear them to know what i'd put on them - guess I haven't so far  :no:

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He's talking about the Conga setup Lonnie, and even that varies depending on which of the different sized drums you are mic'ing or focusing on (Conga is the set often consisting of 5 sizes)  Tumba/Conga/Quinto (something like that)..  Those often used combo's but those were tricky,  electrovoice, AKG, ribbons, but Used specific mic's, and depending on venue you could use SM-57's above and perpendicularly angled down at the head, at times if you want a sharper percussive attack closer and 45 degree's down towards (but at rim level) Percussion is real tricky. As for the Timbales, soundmen are afraid of those things.. They don't go near them . Nah, those carry, and I haven't a clue.. It's like mic'ing a machine gun or firecracker...HAHAHA

When I've done analog recording, and what our soundman used to do was use a 57 type directional microphone for guitar cabs angled at a small angle but NOT to the center or an edge of a SELECT speaker (in a multiple config cab such as the 1960 4x12 cab, Twin 2X12 or Super 4X10). Finding the "sweet spot" was more of a game of best sounding speaker in the cab, once located, best center position on cone, best angle, usually always a very close distance to grill cloth/ metal grill. The test was to crank the amp and get a decent hot output that sounded OK, since playing would be louder than setup and soundcheck.. (not sure how the board was adjusted, I just watched the mic'ing process)... Tricky part was to compensate for optimal sound when the cab was mic'd for balance via mains and amp itself (for higher wattage rigs) finding a decent blend.. (naturally this is when guitar didn't go direct, and for larg indoor venues, and outdoor venues depending on equip used.) For some reason when the sound guy wished to mic the cab rather than let a singers mic pick up the sound too..I just watched and asked stupid questions, regarding Optimal reverb, THAT wasn't done with one mic, kind've like bass frequencies when not compressed direct there are some things a microphone detracts from like ambient stuff. Reverb was often cut using one microphone but using several and utilizing delay between 2 or more microphones spaced at a distance you capture some delay, as does large open venue and listeners ears a distance away. The close microphone didn't really capture reverb I don't think, however distant microphones and space enabled reverb to really be heard and regenerated during outdoor live use, for indoor small venue there are LOADS of tricks, (more of an echoverb for large venues) also the delay in several mic's at differing distances..  seemed the best you could really do with analog.

Conga's (which I think you are talking about Ollie) were tricky. Like I said, it appears A few feet above the mic pointed directly at the skin, sometimes with the smaller drums in a Conga set you'd use different types of microphones such as ribbons since BUT you don't mic the Tumba the same as the higher pitched Quinto.  Sometimes it a three or more Conga setup, 45 degree around rim level in front and angled however sounds best at around 45 degree's downwards... The Conga itself (Center and medium sized of the Conga set) is separated from the lower and higher pitched drum and balanced first, sort've the center point.. sometimes the microphone was at an angle to the rim of the skin, other times above and perpendicularly downwards,  Tumba, and Quinto and are repositioned after the Conga is balanced, can't be left adjacent because of resonance...) These were tricky and for Large venues used combo's of microphones... I can't tell you about the Timbale... Talk about TOUGH to mic if mic'd at all...  For the trap drum kit I have I used the Sure Beta-Greens for the medium drum (Toms except the floor toms) because the Shure BG 6.1 say that's what they're for so I just take the specs word for it..

Just don't ask me about mic'ing a baby grand.  I've done it plenty of times talk about critical and tough !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Nothing easy about setting up microphones IMHO.. I've tried to do some reading on it, but I'd rather not bother with it at all.



By "Medium sized" I mean medium pitched in a trap set, (the toms) I forgot how to write, I only type now.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Regardless of the genre (and there's no ONE way to mic any one genre) you need to know how to mic the individual instruments, you need to know how to mic them and mix sound, you must understand principles of venues, indoor, outdoor, sound physics, mic specs, frequency dropoff, speaker dynmics, tricks for tweaking etc. etc.

There are books on this stuff.  It's ANYTHING but simple. It's a FULL area of sound engineering that although fascinating is why a good soundman is crucial.  It's nothing I wish to devote ages learning.. But you can find tips and tricks being resourceful online.  ALSO, you need to know the sound you wish to have. You mix knowing what you wish the outcome to be, you need an idea of what balance and tonal spectrum you wish to hear when finished. Accents on what areas ? Rolling back what areas ?

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".