Karaoke Forums

One brief comment, and I'm hitting the hay  LOL

 A reality is that in retrospect MANY will agree that the most helpful critiques when
delivered honestly at the time did sting,  but that's what enabled growth and THAT should be the intent,  to wish to grow, and wish to help others grow, otherwise the category is just wrong in such a setting.. "Fluff" is wrong when it's counterproductive to what "critique" is about,  but when fluff becomes a guise for the blatant lie, that's real bad ! There's no reason that a critique category should end up hurting the mature individuals who dare to attempt to have their needs met taking a risk at true interactive exchange, but in turn find "Lying pays off here, if you wish for reality go to a music conservatory instead".

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

you got me Steve!  Lemme see if I can get this payton place straight..the person who told me I was "full of myself" was confronted by another "friend" in private...turns out that the comment was left because some friends had emailed and told him I was "snotty" in my comments to them- in reality he thought I was a great singer but said that to sort of retaliate for me hurting his friends. So...head scratching... ...the question is why didn't he just SAy that in the first place? I'm wondering if there really were "friends" that were hurt- cuz if there were-I'd most CERTAINLY like to make amends(I'll fluff the living sh!t out of them then refrain from wasting my time "critiqing" them again) or was that something to justify what he said when our mutual friend confronted him? personally I'd believe someone thought I was condescending way before they would say I was **snotty** what do you think???  :whistle: and here I "thought" I had graduated from high school

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Let me sleep on it.... Let me sleep on it.... Let me sleep on it...  I'll give you an answer in the morning  LOL


There's nothing easy about critique.  It's commendable when two people can make it work,  it's disgusting when 3rd parties have to apologize in following posts for what worked for these two parties and this is yet another problem.

Many of us learned that critique is a necessary evil that without, we'd likely appear as fools on the stage.  As a result seeing the process deliberately exploited, and even at times a means of camouflaged bashing does eat at us. Yeah,  I get bothered when I see "stage" and similarly "critique" become horribly distasteful venues for delivering some F'ed up presentation I suppose..  My problem to an extent,  but I respect the arts and don't consider Singer's Showcase any less of an artistic venue (Karaoke or not) because I doubt many wish to get on stage to "suck at what they are doing"



You did.   Welcome back to kindergarten !!    It's really amusing to visualize actual adults in a sunday school setting fighting about who gets the gold star as opposed to the silver star considering last week their friend got a red star when the kid at the next desk deserved no star for cheating but got a silver star and that just isn't fair so it's time for a jihad !

ADDED IN:

OK,  Just had some coffee,  and your above post hit the nail on the head !  and the problem in this context from my current perspective is the Critique category becomes the medium for such puerility*

*:::::::tears page off've yesterdays word-a-day dictionary:::::::

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

errr psssst Kappy the person concerned that considered her full of herself is represented by 3 initials the first one being an m and the last one being a k I think that explains much

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Or numerous other combinations of letters and numbers ?


Let's assume (totally hypothetically now) that a person who leaves me a critique *IS* in fact generally full of themselves.  ALL that matters in context of giving and receiving singing critique is whether or not the critique has some degree of merit and can help me.  If my reflex is to respond with "You are full of yourself" I have no right submitting for critique (assuming I can't transcend fault finding as a response).
I might intensely dislike a person that leaves me a critique BUT if I submit for a critique I don't have a right to pick and choose who leaves the critique and the content they leave.  If a person wishes to hear the comments of friends only in a critique category,  they must specifically ask the friends for feedback privately, not request critique (when in fact all have a right to leave a critique).

Again, when this situation arises the problem is not the problem of the person leaving a critique.  Rather than the person requesting the critique absorbing the critique there's fall out that hurts MANY too often.  Again,  another problem with "critique" is it becomes a weapon in certain hands, a guise for "bashing" in certain cases either overtly, or setting another up for being bashed.  This is wrong !

This is why I feel it's important to consider honest intent of giving and asking parties, and if there's doubt it's best to avoid "C" in SS

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Here's a thought that's not too profound but it seems true.

    If you take pride in your submitted material in singers showcase and submit for
    critique frequently

    then

    you are guaranteed given some time that your feelings will be hurt. We all risk
    putting our necks on the chopping block when we display a very real part of
    ourselves.  Even in an optimal Critique setting, assuming the ego gets the best
    of us, a genuine critique will eventually come that hurts our feelings BUT, does
    this mean the critique isn't valid ?  Does OUR hurt feelings mean it's "negative" ?
    Nope,  not at all.  This is the type of critique, (and teacher) I think back on that
    taught me truthfully.  Perhaps when subbing for Critique,  the reply to the
    Critique space should not show for a few days following !   Give the person time
    to digest it.  There's no law that says critique must always come in suger-coated
    tablet form to be effective.  There's no reason the person submitting for critique
    shouldn't be mature enough to ignore all but overt character attacks. The burdon
    falls on the person asking for critique to be able to handle such a situation in this
    setting maturely considering only a few will actually know how to deliver
    the critique using ideal etiquette and psychology 101 principles.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Oh my gosh... this discussion is still going on? Lmao...

I think a lot of it has to just- bottom line- do with personal taste.

There are some singers who don't make vocal errors, every note is (pretty much) pitch perfect, they may even know how to make the song sound emotional ein all the right places... but be it song choice, style of voice, whatever... perhaps they bore me to tears and I can't stand listening to their complete song.

Then there may be someone singing the type of song I like, and have great character in their voice- and so they miss some notes and maybe even they come in a bit slow on verse 2 so that the timing is a bit off... and this person is someone I'll look up each and every time I log in, cause I like 'em, and they are great fun to listen to:)

I don't give numbers... unless, it's a song that just grabbed my attention, and made me rewind cause I had to hear it again, or it's yanking my chain for some reason or other. Then I'll give one. As of right now, in all my comments, I think I have one or two given, that's it.

When judging a singer, unless they are SO off key that a deaf mute could hear it... or seriously aren't with the music... I don't judge (overall) on technical stuff. It's more my enjoyment of what I heard. I couldn't make myself sit and listen for tiny flaws... what the hell is the point? We don't do that at concerts, when we listen to professionals singing. I don't do it when I buy a cd.... I can see it now

"Yes, sir, I did open the cd and play it at home, but I insist you let me return it cause I don't feel the singer put enough emotion into song #3, so I don't feel I got my money's worth"

Not saying we shouldn't critique--- those who seriously want it should be able to ask for it and know that they can get it. But, haha, no need to go there again... it's been said a zillion times, you're not gonna get total honesty here. The fluff is so thick in SS that I am not even going back in there until my new "fluff waders" I ordered from Ebay get here;)

Last time I was in there, I couldn't make my way around because of it... I got lost, the fluff flakes have gotten larger and are coming down thicker.  LMAO

What does make me angry... is... there are a few I REALLY like, some of my favs, who I occasionally come in to listen to, and they have so few comments and not the grandest.... then you see some that the song was pretty flaky at best and they have tons of comments... all glowing. Where's the fairness to the person who REALLY put on an excellent performance?

(again, maybe cause that's only MY opinion???... could be)

.

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

I'd just like to say, the reason for my visits to SS is that I really enjoy the friends I have met there. Did everyone seem to forget that the theme of this site is KARAOKE. That is supposed to mean having fun with the art of singing. Good or Bad. When I first came to this site, I read the link "Karaoke History". I think we should all take a click and read this. Here is my stance.... I do have some history with music and I'd like to think I have the knowledge to help others. If that's what you're looking for. DON'T hesitate to ask. Otherwise, I'm going to continue listening for fun... Crooner

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Diplomacy: The art of letting someone have it your way!
The Crooner

Last time I was in there, I couldn't make my way around because of it... I got lost, the fluff flakes have gotten larger and are coming down thicker.  

Charmin  :rotflmao:

What does make me angry... is... there are a few I REALLY like, some of my favs, who I occasionally come in to listen to, and they have so few comments and not the grandest.... then you see some that the song was pretty flaky at best and they have tons of comments... all glowing. Where's the fairness to the person who REALLY put on an excellent performance?

POINT ME TO THESE PEOPLE!!! I would LOVE to hear some great talent. There is one guy smidzee or something like that and he soundsl ike an authentic record but only gets like 3 comments and 5 or 6 total views because he doesn't comment on others and rarely replies when commented ON...but I don't care...he rocks! And I listen cuz I LIKE him..and I comment because HE DESERVES to be acknowledged! If you know some other like him I'd Love to take a listen!



I'd just like to say, the reason for my visits to SS is that I really enjoy the friends I have met there. Did everyone seem to forget that the theme of this site is KARAOKE. That is supposed to mean having fun with the art of singing. Good or Bad. When I first came to this site, I read the link "Karaoke History". I think we should all take a click and read this. Here is my stance.... I do have some history with music and I'd like to think I have the knowledge to help others. If that's what you're looking for. DON'T hesitate to ask. Otherwise, I'm going to continue listening for fun... Crooner

Dennis - I respect your professional resume AND your talent...but PLEASE don't say anything unless you sincerely mean it. As a producer... you are one of the people I would GENUINELY want to hear suggestions from. Especially if it helped me make a recording I was using for demo purposes "more professional" Don't Fluff me pretty please! I'm not gonna take offense- I'm going to be grateful to have the advice!

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Crooner,  for that very reason wouldn't it be best if the dang "Critique" category was removed ?   It becomes counterproductive to "easy going fun place without judgement" IMHO.  Assuming it's left, and given psychology... Shouldn't it just be private ?

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Paula I agree with a previous comment you made about listening taking up more of a day than it really should...well the non-listeners, non-commenters are where I start in the weeding of who I will or will not listen to. The ones who never give anything back to the site are the first on my list. Hell the nick name you mentioned has been a member since 2005 and had 2 comments to his name...same with your very talented friends that first followed you to the site and have dropped off...for me if someone is not going to bother to acknowledge the time I took out of my lifestyle to listen and comment then sod 'em I dont care how good they are

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

I agree with you Vik(bout some of my friends not interacting like they initially said they would)... I took one in particular to task about it. I was dissappointed that they all said "Oh yeah" but then when push came to shove backed out. One of them got chewed cuz they left a truthful comment to someone that was suggesting things they could do to improve and got a nasty PM back. And they wrote and told me that's why they were stopping I gues in that case you coukld call it "Death by fluffing"

And of course I'll always listen to those I like and who are active on the site...but the people with genuine talent who only sub I don't mind hearing either(wether they reply back or not) In those few cases it's kinda like listening to a cd for me...I love Chaka Khan- but if I ever heard a thank you for all the times I listened to her I'd probably pass out cold from shock(wink)  LMAO

I'll probably start an actual list of those that have been snippy when I offered suggestions( and not listen/comment on them anymore) and those that seemed to genuinely appreciate the comments(good and bad) who I will continue to comment on and leave suggestions to whenever I see anythign to point out.....and at the top of the list will be those that personally requested me to critique them honestly.

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You're a better man than me Charlie Brown

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Some of us believe the Internet is predominantly a selfish experience for most. Reciprocity while found more frequently in real life with those you know better, isn't often the case on the internet. For me it is,  because I live strongly by do-unto-others (despite no religious affiliation presently).  The lower a persons expectations are, often-times the more fun they can have.  While I've had excellent luck with transactions in a business sense on the net,  I would not wish to look for emotional fulfullment TOO much.  Within this category would be "fairness" as to who listens to whom.  My guess is a relatively low percentage that receive comments are getting listeners that listen to THE WHOLE SONG.  In some cases, comments, critique even are left  without the commenting party even wishing to take the time to listen at all !  Who's going to know if you do or do not take the time to listen to the whole song anyway ?

This is what I was getting at earlier when I stated that I feel a person must throughout the SS experiences ALWAYS ask themselves "What do I expect out've subbing".  Now while I'm the LAST person to say that people shouldn't care as much about response and recognition (because I feel almost all do to varying extents), I think it's important to not fall into the "I have to submit a song" routine for ANY reason except that you really are in the mood to, for you.. and nobody else !

When external affirmation becomes an expectation,  it's best to not search anywhere on the internet UNLESS you really feel you know others, or have net them !  

JMHO

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Absolutely !    I always do this anyway !  Albeit a mental note.   Thing is I've made so many friends in here, and many I've left Critiques for have been gracious so we were hoping to create a "Critique Team",  like a round-table panel that jointly critiques and the final version is submitted by the captain.  In fact I suggested this, and figured for the best interactive experience we could use the chatroom for question and answers regarding critique process.  BUT,  problem is (as you know) the Critique takes a person to be in a certain mindset, you can't have a "stormy mind" to analyze and leave a fair critique it, the process takes TIME, where a person isn't multitasking, It's just not a 30 second process like this post I'm leaving (while doing other things in the background)..  What I felt bad about, is I really didn't have the time to Critique as many as requested critiques via PM and Email...  Because I felt at best given my current situation and time allocated for complete concentration,  writing down notes regarding specifics, dynamics, lyric areas, etc  re-listening;  Often head-to-heads with originals,  trips to piano to interpret options interval jumps, etc.  I really only had the time to do about 5 a week.  Sometimes,  it get's tough for me because even within my genre of expertise,  there are songs I dislike,  and I MUST remain as objective as possible.  Lonman brought up a good point,  he said "Be honest,  if you don't like a particular song you should tell the person how you feel about the song, although tactfully",  but I find this tough to do !!

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

[highlight=white]My guess is a relatively low percentage that receive comments are getting listeners that listen to THE WHOLE SONG.  In some cases, comments, critique even are left   without the commenting party even wishing to take the time to listen at all !  Who's going to know if you do or do not take the time to listen to the whole song anyway ? [/highlight]When I make a comment I try to be very specific...sometimes I am referring to things they said or did in certain parts of the song. Sometimes I refer to lines they said or the like...when I am actually making a suggestion to a person I also try to make it clear that I did listen to the entire song by the things I say. I discount alot of the comments that are general to me like "Nice job" or "enjoyed my listen" they are generic comments. But on the good side..I am getting positive feedback from those I have left comments that weren't 100% positive...and even those that I know from insider info are a bit "put out" with me have evidenced that they value ""my"" comments above many others for the fact that they know I mean what I say and that on most cases it's apparent that I DID listen closely to the whole song. So perhaps there is some small hope that SS can be resurrected from the kingdom of Fluff. ...at least as far as the songs with a "c" by their names( grinning)

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In the real world my good buddies (bandmates) have told me,  you better not sound like that tonight or you'll embarass the xit out've all of us,  if you aren't up for the gig,  we'll call David and you can stay home.  OR..   "You call yourself A pianist"?  "You're choppy, rigid, and better just stick to bass and guitar because that really stunk"..

So ?  They are still my friends... and you know what I realized ?  I learned something from this,  sometimes if I'm not feeling up to snuff,  I better turn on a tape recorder and try to assess what I REALLY sound like because it's extremely difficult for us to hear ourselves objectively while we are performing (if not impossible)..  Artists NEED other artists to pace them.  If a goal of a person is to be the "best" performer in singers showcase,  their life is sorely lacking someplace and they really shouldn't sub at all because they are setting themselves of for torture.

BTW... Yeah,  I ALWAYS make the Critiques VERY positive, very detailed, and dissect the whole composition in the key it's performed in.  The delivery of the Critique takes awhile too, I critique that person,  not everyone with the same style..  There have been a few that are doing the best they can, and I'm the one that must take into consideration that to critique certain things at certain levels isn't going to be beneficial..  A few I'm suggested take lessons in real because it seems evident to me that without looking at them, I can't help them with posture, and breathing technique as well as diaphramatic projection to get out've head-voice..  Even seated posture is important..  A few just need a lot of practice... On the flipside,  a few have been too good, and that's what I must tell them,  To *ME* this was a "10", and than the seriously difficult critiquing begins. I MUST justify why I found this better than the original !   A few are just too good, and I don't know how to critique them..  I critique everybody as an individual which means when I critique one song,  I also must be sure I've listened to at least 3 or more other songs they've done.. and as I've mentioned to you,  I try to get specific,  as in "What is it you wish for me to listen for" ?.  Most know a few things already about their ability,  "What are you trying to do with the song" ? etc

I get as much of a boost in ego to tell somebody,  "You are a much better musician than I am, I don't feel I can help at your level of performance because my bias is essentially that.  It's not objective, and in terms of your technical singing, I don't have the ability to help you",  

as I get out've helping somebody..
Meaning,  for me the process is the sharing of my musical knowledge and NOTHING more.. If I really like something I say it..  It's not about what I know..  It's about whether or not I can assist, and input helpful stuff keeping in mind it's always subjective at the non-technical level.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

There seems to be a misunderstanding here regarding "positive" vs "negative".  A helpful critique that is thought out and tactful *IS* positive despite how much you tell the person they can stand to "tweak", "listen carefully for",  "Re-do".  Now the fact that they ask for a Critique and don't seem to like the fact they aren't 100% does not make the Critiquer any less proficient.

Negative would mean...  Damn,  you really suck, give up singing..

Negative is not..  

"6th measure, chorus, lyrics ___ you lost stamina and this showed in your dynamics during the perfect 5th jump from D to A, There was no expression at the cadence following in your voice, and you just died on the notes as if you couldn't get that measure over with fast enough. This sounded like a weak register for your voice as well, additionally, the reverberation you are using to mask your insecurity during this type part of the composition actually makes it more evident that this is an insecure area for you,  try singing the interval a cappella using a piano or pitchpipe to build security with interval jumps; confidence thru ear-training technique will enable you to become less reticent during interval jumps where note attack is noticeably weak.. Also what happens is the reverberation used, detracts from the ethereal quality of your vibrato fade out during the phrase endings, and removes the bass and some of the lower-mid frequencies from your voice which tends to sound as though it's getting carried in a wind... Regarding your breath control, such a slow ballad's phrasing must be taken into consideration and you got winded at ____,  ____ ,or if it's the sinus congestion you stated you have that might attribute"..

That is a positive partial critique,  if a person can't deal with that,  I've wasted time trying to help them..  I'm not about to apologise for honest constructive comments when I'm trying to help a person improve..  No need for the Critiquing individual to become a sycophant.  

Now,  assuming you gave me such a critique (years from now when I'm up around a "4" rank) and I in turn critiqued you,  what you stated to me would have NO bearing what-so-ever on how well I thought you did..  Critiquing CAN NOT be tit for tat..

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Paula, I would Never... Don't get me wrong, I don't care for fluff in the way it's defined here. I can't seem to get my comment count above 120 because I try to take the time to say something meaningful. I sometimes feel like a comment slacker But if you read my comments, they all speak my true feelings. I use my ears and my heart with every comment. Someone once asked me when I gave them an extraordinarily high praise of a song, if I fluffed all the other comments I gave them. I didn't understand that until reading this stuff. If you blow me away with a song, I intend to blow you away with praise for it. That's me. The true me. So all of you who respect my opinion, blow me away... You'll probably wind up featured somewhere on my Website.... Maybe even on the Pristine Studios Wall of Fame...  :worship: Crooner

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Diplomacy: The art of letting someone have it your way!
The Crooner

To steve....Holy freakin Sh!T ...I***think*** I might be grateful you never critiqued me...that was information overload. I have never been a singer who could tear a song apart word for word...Ican do "phrase for phrase"on a REALLY good day...but most of what I do is "instinct" that combines "acting with singing to create a mood during my song" and it is based on classical theory and gut feeling.....but I could never do such an involved specific critique. Either giving or comprehending. WOW I tested 167 on the IQ's in elementary school...but you must blow 200 out of the water. Dayum...that all I can say.,...DAY_UM! MOst of the singers on SS would be even worse tham me- eyes glazed over and they would sign off from a critique like that with a "what the fu(k was THAT?" feeling. I guess that's what I was talking about though...you have to give constructive things that while being specific are not overwhelming. But...that was if nothing else "impressive" My oh my... you ARE "one of kind"

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