Karaoke Forums

Thank you Tink, maybe that'll do me some good.
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Geez... what's in that stuff anyhow? I'm getting a bit lightheaded.  :drunk:

Wow... and the colors in here are SO cool now that I look at them closer.

And check out the size of the avatars, I swear I've never noticed they were that HUGE before....

>running out to get some munchies, I'm suddenly got a craving for EVERYthing<

*Peace*



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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

All depends on the individuals objective.  For some Karaoke means only ONE thing, having fun. Karaoke means participating in a party game. They aren't singing to improve, it's their chance to get up onstage and "play' or "pretend", and they want to believe they are great,  to tell them otherwise hurts their feelings.  NOW WHY this segment often KEEPS sub'ing for "Critique" is a problem for many because there's wide-spread fallout when somebody dares to attempt to fulfill their request and oblige them. And, as if one or two times isn't enough for them to learn NOT to submit in Critique due to a messy situation, they KEEP submitting in Critique because the problem is everyone else, they can't believe their friends would do such a horrible thing such as Critique them, because that's MEAN  :(    Some just don't like to think Critique means anything beyond "You rewl dude", and they have no interest in even looking the definition of the term Critique up !  Such individuals expect the person commenting to have a sixth sense and know their limits (they obviously do not take the time to figure out what they can and can't deal with).  Some don't wish to expend energy on improving, singing is not an artistic venue of expression for many, just a sing-along where no "musicianship" is required.   Not all that sing karaoke, aspire to be singers. They are just playing and having fun.   This of course if great.  It should be fun, but TOO often, those that submit for Critique aren't being emotionally honest with themselves or with others.  This is quite a problem regarding "C".  People requesting it, who DO NOT want it,  Karaoke to them is fantasy,  it doesn't ocurr to them that Critique is *real*.  The contrast is quite harsh !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I would be happy with any suggestions you might give Tammy, I like your stuff and respect your abilities

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Fluff is rampant on all these singing sites. Personally, I don't care what people think of my "singing". Just so long as they tell me that I'm wonderful, great, fantastic, the best thing since sliced bread etc, etc...

Hey..can I add my 2 cents? I always find something truthful to say. There have only been a few times when I was a lying dawg. And I do admit that I treat people who don't have regular voices differently than people who can actually have a singing ability. I do however try to keep any less than "fluffy" comments in the private messages.I signed on here as a pro vocalist that wants to support the kind folks on here and many ask me- honestly- what I think. In that case if I give an honest critique that involves anything negative- I think it is between me and the person who asked for my opinion and I would never embarrass anyone in front of all the folks on SS by putting something negative in their comments section.

So my advice is to find something to say that you honestly believe and give people who request "honesty" for the sake of improving- your suggestions in a private way. They will appreciate the courtesy, the honesty, AND the discretion...and the others will be happy that you genuinely found "something" to compliment without lying through your teeth.

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Steven, you ARE the best thing since sliced bread!!!

And wonderful, great, fantastic etc etc etc  :yum:

Thanks,  but please,  tell me something I DON'T already know...Sheesh,  I mean how am I going to grow unless the .001% with a truly discerning ability is willing to take the time and listen to me  :headscratch:


(Or are you talking about singing ?)  

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Thank you, CatsEyeView!!!!! Now THAT'S what I'M talkin about!!!!

The problem with fluffing... other than the real definition of the word, is it really over-inflates... well, come to think of it, that IS the definition!!! L M A O!!

Seriously, that kind of behavior just overinflates an ego that SHOUDLN'T be overinflated sometimes. Hey, I can carry a tune, but I honestly don't mind if I get a seven from an individual. that's better than average heading to good. Nothing to be ashamed of there!

I honestly think the whole point giving should go along with the poster... the singer should be able to see who gave what point review!

You'd see an end to sniping!

I think on some subconcious level we wanna punish people for picking "critique" LoL  That we want to show them to NOT choose this option without thinking about it.  

From this moment on, I will NO LONGER fluff anything that is marked "C".  I will NEVER be mean or nasty, but I'm going to be honest!

And if I feel it would embarrass someone in anyway, I will PM it.  So for all of you..... please don't mark "c" if your feelings get hurt when you're told you were off key.  Because I'm not going to fall off the wagon

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[scroll][glow=darkorchid]~I'm the girl your mother warned you about~[/scroll][/glow]

No,  Not initially, In fact it seems to be the other way around in a considerable number of instances. Initially my wish was to help them improve.  Naturally after they start lashing out at those with positive intent, (in certain cases bashing the person attempting to oblige them and involving their friends as well), the intent changes (when they repeatedly insist on submitting to Critique despite it being evident they don't care what the term means)., Reason being, It appears to be the OTHER way around, people wish to punish the Critiquing party.

I think what I'd wish to add to Matts post is that in addition to inflating ego (which personally isn't my concern), Fluffing is a cutesy term for LYING. And those that submit to Critique that *are* mature enough to state their needs DO NOT deserve to be lied to !  The term has a definition hence it either belongs in the showcase, or it doesn't.  To feed into fluff in the Critique category is counterproductive to keeping the Critique category in existence.

My thought being either way you view this "Punish the submitting party for "C", or Punish the Critiquing part,  the problem remains the stigma, and mindset regarding Critique.  Metaphorically, it's giving toddlers a razorblade to play with in the context of the Showcase,  some don't get cut but the majority at some point do.

JMHO

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say it's the same as giving a toddler a razorblade.  See my thoughts are that people want to know the truth, just sometimes they can't handle it.  Sometimes even if it wasn't intended to be, it comes across as hurtful.  

Say when someone spent hours and hours on a sub and did the VERY best they could.... and they subbed it for critique thinking it was just the best since Michael Jackson went solo.  Well when you tell them it's not, no matter what words you use, it's going to hurt them because people didn't think it was as good as they themselves thought it was.

People then don't lash out so much as get defensive.  Their feelings are hurt and maybe their dreams of becoming a singer have been put into question in their eyes.  So don't view it as an attack when they "lash out" at you, view it as them protecting their ego.  And EVERYONE does this, we just go about it in different ways.

Maybe the answer to it all is that when someone lashes out after you critique, you merely tell them they should sub JFF and then ignore anything else that they say.  You can be the bigger party, recognize what is going on and choose to not let it effect you

Okay enough of my rambling.

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[scroll][glow=darkorchid]~I'm the girl your mother warned you about~[/scroll][/glow]

No question, receiving a critique isn't easy.  In fact it's very humbling, very difficult. It's NOT fantasy,  it's real.  So yes,  people DO get defensive, I believe (as you state) for most at some point, it's a normal response to feel somewhat of an impulse to defend oneself when genuinely critiqued,  to respond with "That's because", etc.  Since this is often the case should Critique be viewable to all ?  or should the process just be private ?  That MIGHT be somewhat of a solution but this too has been discussed in the past.  Sort've like posting final exam grades in a hallway for all to see.  Those that get a C- usually aren't the proudest.



I ended up Critiquing privately for a few.  I have some knowledge of the process so I expend the time for it.  It's time-consuming, and I've yet to alienate anyone with my particular style.  I HAVE seen too many that have taken the chance being honest slammed,  and I think it's sad..  These were often excellent singers/musicians being honest, in fact I thought they were being VERY tactful,  assuming they were less tactful, the feedback wouldn't have been "critiquing".  While I agree it's better to attempt to be the bigger party,  the problem that ensues as a result of an individual having a tough time receiving the honest critique is often a larger scale fall-out than just the giver and receiver (of the Critique).  The real problem is when the "apologists" jump in because they too don't like seeing Critiquing transpiring.  That's what bothers me.  Too often the Critiquing individual is made to feel like a troll who's purpose is to "boost" himself by denegrading others.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Steve you and Magz have is right..I have been told several times in a very nice way  "Fu(k you very much" And as you said Steve- I was being EXCEEDINGLY tactful and only commenting on the things I felt were actually in the capacity of the singer to improve. Telling someone to pull up the music, turn the mic down, add some reverb, to lower the song..those sorts of things. If they can't carry a tune in a bucket- then I try not to say anything. If I get told thanks but no thanks on my advice- well I guess I don't have to waste my time listening to or critiquing them anymore if they don't care. Saves me time.

But the bottom line is- Like listener X- I may not become the most popular person on this site- but I would at least like to be respected. Unlike listener X I am also leaving the option open for someone to leave possibly negative comments for me and my singing. X may be right on the money( has been so far in everything I have read) But because he doesn't sub- he is protected from  possible retaliation so to speak. I admire people who want to be critiqued, I REALLY admire anyone who is brave enough to try to help someone who may not be the most secure singer in the world( thus more likely to last out defensively) and I  practically Idolize those brave enough to say it like it IS AND to post work of their own so they THEY are subjugated to the same process they subject others too. May subjugate isn't the best word but you know what I'm saying. I try to put my money where my mouth is--I try to tactfully say it like it is, and I am posting material so that others can tell me how they see it. Whats a little honesty among friends? If I have to Lie- then I'm not being their "friend" because I am not doing what is in their best interests. If you read my comments to others- with a few exceptions for various reasons( at my discretion) I speak truthfully if gently. If someone wants to be my friend I expect the same thing from them! As I said Kappy- I'd love for someone with your musical background to take a listen to my stuff..I am looking for marketability,  does the song suit my voice, are the tracks good quality, and are the changes I made to make the song "mine" appropriate.

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I don't get it????? Why is fluff a bad thing. We're all big boys and girls. Critique comes in many forms. If I hear a song that makes my feet move, but the singing wasn't stellar, I will still like the overall performance. On the other side, I may not comment at all because I just really didn't care for the song. The singer might have been great, but I couldn't appreciate it because I didn't like the song. Overall, what's wrong with helping boost someones self-esteem. What sounds like crap today, might be tomorrows greatest star. Just because of some harmless fluff...  :hug:

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Diplomacy: The art of letting someone have it your way!
The Crooner

I feel this way too.  If an adult isn't capable if stating their actual needs & knowing what these needs are (in essence being emotionally honest with themselves and secondly others), I can't be bothered riding their dysfunctionally ego challenged rollercoaster..  Critique means "ego must be shelved enough to enable the performer to listen and absorb enough to improve".

If a person wishes to bask in their current state of unawareness of where they actually stand (in a venue that showcases the singer, not Karaoke backing), assuming they wish to believe they are a "9", talk the talk of a pro despite the fact they are likely "3" rank singers (which PLENTY are)..despite what others are saying behind their backs that's their perrogative.  BUT,  Even the "1" to "3"  wannabe singers have my respect assuming they maintain etiquette, and respect the listener.  Those that can't handle Critique,  need to be "9"s otherwise throw a tantrum (yet repeatedly ask for Critiques) aren't changing the reality of how critical listeners can be...It's their fantasy,  but nobody elses..  These individuals just will have an easier time living in a fantasy world here since they can't see or hear the audience, (even tell if the audience is actually there, or just dropping a note to bait them into a backscratching contest without even listening.. Politics)... Those that really stink if not humble are making fools of themselves in the showcase.. Most however have enough integrity to know that they are in real at least 6's out've 10's assuming they believe they CAN sing, but there's little more foolish IMHO than an arrogant adult that thinks they excel in an area they really suck at (showcasing their paucity of ability with pride)..

Otherwise ALL that submit knowing they aren't perfect but wishing to improve as singers have my TOTAL respect for submitting whether "C" "L" comments only, etc even if they are almost a "1" rank singer.  It's great to want to join in an activity even when we suck, BUT I believe it's good to know where you really stand if you are showcasing an ability (or lack of) for the whole world to listen to..  

Regarding Listener X,  I wish Listener X didn't feel the need to form a Critiquing alias.  Had they stuck with their firstname (or known nick) without feeling the need for anonymity, THAT I'd have had more respect for, several others too.  Reason being,  I just can't justify being on a site like this just to critique others because to do-so becomes a dare-devilsih type activity.. Bottomline becomes either critique works or it doesn't work, but outside of a scholastic environment I see NO need to try to show adults who aren't receptive to learning,  any lesson, rather than improve if they opt to resent those Critiquing they have issues, but critiquing behind anonymity can be construed as not being genuine meaning the performers response will likely be,  Hey,  I don't even know you.. I'm showing my identity in here, yet you must hide yours to "help me" ?  Somethings wrong with this picture, "If you are genuine,  put a name behind your comments, otherwise what's your point besides to show you can go against the grain here".   That's the only issue I had with the Listener X the anon Critiquer Alias..   Either people wish for a Critique or they don't,  FEW did.  I won't put my kneck on the chopping block assuming the general accepted mood is "Gold star for everyone" In a Polyanna-like "showcase":

Unfortuneately the aspiring vocalists lose out assuming they can handle honesty.  Reason being,  most are lied to by what they ARE NOT told assuming they sub for Critique. Critique means anything but "sugar-coat and conceal truth"

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I think before submitting, and constantly along the way it's important for a person to ask themselves "Why am I doing this?",  "What is it I want from the experience".  A few have ended up running off angry,  one even banished because fun took backseat to what turned out to be a fiercely competitive nature in a lose-lose environment assuming that becomes a motive..  If a person believes the showcase to be a microcosm of their actual ability based upon audience feedback that's quite sad IMHO..

If a person wishes to just have fun and share...and won't be devastated by certain realities and psychology aspects that transpire on the internet ... that's great IMHO..

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

if the boosting of someone's self-esteem gives them a FALSE sense of how they did, I DO feel it's not so harmless. In fact, you're setting the person up for a horrible fall when they're finally told the truth by friend or family that won't be so bothered to tell them a fable.

There's nothing wrong with "good job", or other such appropriate comments. I'm all for letting folks have fun, and feeling good while doing it. but not rating them a nine or ten when clearly they're a two!

I agree with you Dennis..I find something to say that is positive and supportive without being false. And there is nothing wrong with that unless you run across a deaf ego maniac who thinks they are the next pavarotti - but causes dogs in a 10 miles radius to howl whenever they open their mouth.  :ggof: Sure I could rip into people and be hardball like I tend to be with other Pro musicians I work with- but even with other Pros on this site- this site is a gentler approach with more focus on what can realistically be DONE to improve- given each individual singers ability. Kappy- while I much respect your opinion and agree with you for the most part I will point out that "critique" doesn't alway mean pointing out all that is wrong bluntly. It also can mean offering support for what they did RIGHT..as long as what you say has truth behind it. HOW you tell someone they can inprove can also GREATLY impact wether they receive your advise with defensive instinct- or an open mind and gratitude towards you for offering them your time and thoughts. When I hear those 6's or less that you were referring to..I generally focus on things like altering the key of the song..or mic/mixing techniques..small quick easily made changes....when I hear someone with a REAL talent..I point them towards songs that suit them best...and try to help them find their own unique personal style-or I may make a suggestion about their phrasing- more advanced things a less experienced singer would be overwhelmed by. By the same token I may give a 5 singer what looks like high praise- because I can see that they are trying to improve and are taking constructive advice and acting on it- while I may be a bit short on the flattery and give more critisism to a GREAT singer who I know isn't pushing themselves.  :clapper:

I also like when someone offers me useable advice without being a jerk. I had someone on here today tell me I was "full of myself".  And maybe to some I am "too confident" But then again when it comes to singing- I have something fairly substantial to base my confidence on. Even so- everyone has an opinion and are ALL equally entitled to them- as was this particular person-That is his right...I could have gotten defensive & blasted back that I make 100/hour to teach vocal training and given him an arm long resume...but because I respected his opinion that seemed "honest"- I went and tried to pinpoint what he was referring to when he made the comment. My only problem was that he wasn't specific when he said " my intros sounded condescending" It was so vague that I couldn't tell what he meant- I went and re- read all my intros and had several friends that I know will be honest do so as well- but none of us could pinpoint what he was referring to. So instead of being able to say "OK I need to do this differently" and being able to make an improvement- I'm left wondering if he didn't just catch me on a bad day.  :confused:  :dontknow: I guess what I'm saying is- if you ARE gonna give advise that is constructive- be specific and don't attack the person. The point of a comment can be to make the singer feel good--but if you want to do more and actually help- you have to "suggest" rather than "critique" in very specific and clear ways. Than it's up to them to decide if you have a valid point or are a windbag to be ignored.

You also have to establish yourself as "someone the singer will BELIEVE knows what the heck they are talking about" So I also applaud what you said Steve about listener X..his comments WOULD bear alot more weight(given the obvious intellect behind them) if he were established as a singer, talent scout or producer- someone who had connection in the music industry and was knowledgable about singing. Otherwise you have a bunch of 3 level singers trying to tell 7 level singers "how to get better" Talk about the deaf leading the deaf!!LOL. But- that may also be the reason you see so many fluffers...maybe to them it isn't "fluff" and they honestly believed what they were saying. But even if they are totally and completely full of sh!t...in most cases I do think it's pretty harmless. Unless you have an egomaniac--not many people could say reading something "Nice" about a sub hurt them. If the niceness is obviously based on truth- or truth as you see it - then all the better. I have lots of people comment that they appreciate me saying this and that because they "know I wouldn't say it unless I meant it" THAT is a high compliment to me. So I'm saying fluff with discretion...help when you can...and offer anything negative wrapped up in a pretty bow( and make it an easy to do suggestion) so that it doesn't "hurt" the person.

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Critique can be presented in many ways.  What a Critique should not be is a blatant lie, and that's what often IS the case in SS due to politics that transpires, and fear of reprisal. Problem is "great job dude, that was really great" if left in place of Critique (assuming the feeling accompanying that easy to leave phrase is that the person really can stand some constructive advice because they botched up, but to take the time to carefully present such advice isn't worth it for the Critiquer who's intent really is to leave praise, for personal gain) is helpful how ?   How is that a careful analysis,  or scrutiny that helps a person requesting a Critique ?  Since when does Critique come in the form of "Hey buddy,  great to see you", assuming the gut feeling is "man that blows" ? How is that not a lie assuming the comment is left in hopes of recruiting fans or networking for "backscratching" parties ?



I'm very aware of that,  what critique DOES mean is taking the time to present what you have to say in a helpful manner, and despite the fact some have taken that time,  such individuals were still met with "Who the F do you think you are, I've listened to your subs and who are you to give me advice?"  The bottomline is Critique involves etiquette and maturity on the part of both the giver and recipient and FEW are willing to take the time to deliver a critique, and even fewer know what the actual purpose and definition of Critique is (nor care to even find out hence Critique is a category that unless redefined to suit a "fluffed Polyanna-like" environment is out of place in SS), Comments and "L"  belong in SS.  If a person wishes for a critique, they should take the effort to request it outright in typed description heading,  stating what they wish for concisely, and it should be delivered IN PRIVATE, not as a source of instigating brawls.  The reason I have issues with "fluff" as I've seen it often exist within the showcase delivered within the Critique category is;

A)   The reason the praise is left at all (often times) is merely a means to recruit  
      reciprocative praise in exchange enhancing the givers visible listening
      audience hence is self-serving.
      When in fact the individual leaving such praise has stated elsewhere
     "My Lord,  I listened to 2 minutes of that voice, and couldn't take anymore"


B)   Feeling of obligation, but interest is NOT to help the person singing, just to get
      it over with, and network giving quantity of singers recognition in hopes of
      padding ones own listening boxes with quantity of listeners in return.

C)   Fear of what might happen assuming individual DARES to be truthful since
      most HAVE seen the extent of fall-out from reprisal.  Hence,  the mood is
      "honesty has poor payoff" so I'll lie and justify it as being a "White Lie"

WHY does this tick me off ?   Well, because in ALL of the above cases I've often seen common rationalizations, meaning the person is admitting to lying via comments left in PM,  yet on the bboards comments are left by said individuals such as.  "Yeah,  it's just for fun, so what" ?  Which would be fine if same party hadn't stated the person really sucks (without provocation elsewhere).  The problem I have is when those leaving Fluff are blatantly lying and those requesting Critique insist they are a "10" and resent being told otherwise...

Point being,  REGARDLESS of whether a person is a 1 or a 6 if their genuine motive is honest when requesting Critique, and they know what the term means I think that's great,.. Assuming they are a 9 and they are mature and tactful,  they are NO better than the 2 or 3 because ALL have a right to submit.. Similarly ALL have a right to take the time to deliver tactful "C" assuming the intent is to help another person..

When the person requesting the Critique clearly does not want a Critique it's dishonest to keep subbing in the category..  When the person delivering a Critique only has a self-serving agenda, and is trying to take a path of least resistance as a means to a goal that too is dishonest.

Critique DOES NOT mean blatant lie.  When the mood becomes "Realistic definition of Critique" is tantamount to xit hitting the fan.. The category doesn't belong in such a fantasyland.  That's my point.  The WORST thing one can do to a person who genuinely wishes for a Critique is blatantly lie to them !  It hurts them longrun, and often IS NOT a white lie but a blatant lie so in all cases the honest and mature individuals are the ones punished in such a setting given the ramifications of what exists.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".