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That's some good stuff Stephen, and I agree with most of it, but in this case I'd just say that legal is what the voters vote for, or whatever laws those in this country who were appointed created. Generally we assume that a law created and enacted will be enforced. Of course that is not always so. All we can do is try and learn the issues, understand the morality, and ourselves, vote and expect that a non corrupt government will follow the will of the people.

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The Truth Is Out There

Bill,  This debate, and those voicing opinions on the Internet I don't believe are a true microcosm of "The Voting Public".  There ARE in fact cases going on as we speak.  I posted this earlier, and you likely didn't read it (and personally I can't blame you ),  but look at how this appears when viewed by us looking in, as opposed to when the businesses get involved, not to mention the aclu.  As I stated,  it requires a LOT of factual research from all angles, and even at such a point.. Something will pop up unforseen.

Here goes just a tidbit

It appears recent opposition prevents the "Swipe of a Sword" approach.

That's met opposition in the past Matt.  Here's a recent example of what recently transpired in Scranton PA.  (ACLU opponents)
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... t=1&f=1003


Here're a few psst decade examples (source:  Washington Post
2007 Immigration Debate)
While most of the government's get-tough rhetoric has focused on people illegally crossing the border, others noted, about 40 percent of the nearly 12 million illegal immigrants living in the United States entered the country legally on visas and simply stayed. That means they probably can be caught only at work.

Major work-site crackdowns have run into trouble in the past. A spring 1998 sweep that targeted the Vidalia onion harvest in Georgia, and Operation Vanguard, a 1999 clampdown on meatpacking plants in Nebraska, Iowa and South Dakota, provide case studies of how the government fared when confronted by a coalition that included low-wage immigrant workers and the industries that hire them, analysts said.

The Georgia raids netted 4,034 illegal immigrants, prompting other unauthorized workers to stay home. As the $90 million onion crop sat in the field, farmers "started screaming to their local representatives," said Bart Szafnicki, INS assistant district director for investigations in Atlanta from 1991 to 2001.

Georgia's two senators and three of its House members, led by then-Sen. Paul Coverdell (R) and Rep. Jack Kingston (R), complained in a letter to Washington that the INS did not understand the needs of America's farmers. The raids stopped.

For Operation Vanguard, the INS used a more sophisticated tactic. It subpoenaed personnel records from Midwestern meatpacking plants and checked them against INS and Social Security databases of authorized workers, then interviewed suspect employees. Of 24,148 employees checked, 4,495, or 19 percent, had dubious documents at about 40 plants in Nebraska, western Iowa and South Dakota. Of those workers, 70 percent disappeared rather than be interviewed. Of 1,042 questioned, 34 were arrested and deported.

Nebraska's members of Congress at first called for tougher enforcement, recalled Mark Reed, then INS director of operations. But when the result shut down some plants, "all hell broke loose," he said.

Secretary of Agriculture Mike Johanns (R), who was governor at the time, appointed a task force to oppose the operation. Former governor Ben Nelson (D), now a U.S. senator, was hired as a lobbyist by meatpackers and ranchers. Sen. Chuck Hagel (R) pressured the Justice Department to stop.

Members of Congress at first hostile to immigrants embraced "all the same people who were so repugnant to them before," Reed said, "and they prevailed." Operation Vanguard -- which was designed to expand to four states in four months and nationwide the next year, eventually including the lodging, food and construction industries -- was killed.

Congress "came to recognize that these people . . . had become a very important part of their community, churches, schools, sports, barbecues, families -- and most importantly the economy," Reed said. "You've got to be careful what you ask for."

The mention of Operation Vanguard provokes strong reactions in Omaha, where people say a similar effort today would still cause trouble.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Ok Eben, I appreciate and respect what you have said, and will consider this and what others said here in the future.  One person one vote, and this is an election year. Personally though, I'm not overly impressed with either party. I still think we need a viable third party in this country to keep the pot stirred.

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The Truth Is Out There

I agree with you there. US is the only "developed nation" with two party system. Many other countries, including France, Germany, etc. are on multiple party system. I don't see why it wouldn't work. OK, technically, we have more than two parties but we know the reality of it is that two party gets most of the money for campaign.

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Seize the day and SING!!!

Well,  I'm not stating that this in my opinion makes one a "Legal citizen" by any means.  I'm stating that things just ended up appearing this way at some point  (although in MY parents case it was this way..  Babies of Immigrants from Lithuania that snuck in here thru Cuba).  It's not up to me of course to decide what is vs what isn't "legal", and at what point a given assembleage of people can all be deemed as "US" (as opposed to them), I believe this too is no simplistic issue if viewed ethically. Who has a right to erect the "no trespassing sign", who do we alienate in doing this ?  What would the benefits be in actuality once the step is taken ? Would the businesses go on strike assuming they are muscled into doing something they refuse to do ?  Many issues.    Would we find out a few years down the road that the Consumers are raising hell,  and in other ways costing our system a lot of money buying elsewhere anyway ?   What are the pros vs cons of all action taken.  What I like about Ebens presentation is that although not agreeable to some,  it DOES in fact satisfy substantive theory from an economic perspective given certain things I believe to be realities, meaning, these jobs that the immigrants are taking REALLY ARE NOT wanted by most across our nation. What EBen states (to me) meets reasonable burdons that benefit both sides of this debate, or at least TWO sides of it... (United States Businesses benefit, economy and consumer hence benefit for the most part, as do the laborers),  I currently see no other solution grounded in anything but personal wish;  Does this mean it makes most happy at first glance ?  Of course not,  however his perspective is economically sound IMO given our current system which is far from perfect..

I stated that I believe Legal vs Illegal assuming the message left by our businesses (and buying behaviour of our consumers) is one speaking out've both sides of their mouth.  While many preach "Don't do it if it's Illegal",  this usually looks good on paper, but when push comes to shove means little given history.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Yep, that's why I have my doubts if border security will ever really occur. The businesses and government all have their hands in the honey pot. There is also illegal drug trafficing. For all I know the government is bought off by the Mexican and South American drug lords - it wouldn't surprise me a bit.

My personal opinion is all of this will get worse for years until it comes to the point that previous legal residents will be furious over the loss of 'their' 'country'. At that point there will be terrorism, and revolts, and riots, etc. Fun to look forward to (Sarcasm).

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The Truth Is Out There

Nah,  Everybody knows this is the United States Of Tokyo.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I have spent 4 or 5 days trying to describe what is like here in the real world but I am accused of posting links that have no bearing. Americans for generations have been building communities with ample jobs, unlocked doors, a good education system, community and national pride, a workable system that embraces all that toils with rewards. And many other american cherished things. Now we sit here living in mexico and they are all gone. What do you mean years to come? It is happening now... You wonder why I get emotional? I know the immensity of the problem. It is a national crisis.

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I don't understand why you believe Mexico is a problem considering how many products are now subcontracted to Japan,  Korea,  China, India, and have been for years.  I buy what was once American made, and the box comes "A Product of Matsushita Electronics",  I buy a Slingerland Snare drum, and the box comes and I have to turn it 5 ways before I can read the english print that states it's a Drum. For years companies have been putting made in USA labels on garments and items made & assembled abroad, In 1976 Fender Musical Inst co.  (CBS) started selling fewer American Standard guitars having guitars assembled with Japanese, and soon afterwards Mexican labor..  Years ago the American Consumer showed that if the smaller japanese cars are advantageous,  they will buy them. My fear isn't Mexican people that wish to make an honest living working hard. Honda started manufacturing in Philly, and other areas in the early 80's. My fear is terrorists that might enter our country thru the Canadian and Mexican borders.

Incidently Ollie,  Don't confuse rural america 1950's with Mexico  LMAO

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Would you like to finish the sentence? Now they (all the things we worked for) are gone.. Did I say mexico is a problem? How much time have you spent in Mexico? Have you ever ventured out of that little bubble you exist in?

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The main reason our UNEMPLOYMENT rate is so low is people can't continue to get Unemployment benefits after a year. So the rate doesn't ACCURATELY reflect the folks that don't have jobs.

again, the problem is that these folks don't want to do those jobs, either... so we need more and more migrant farm labor... who don't work on the farm, either!!

Amen to that brother. I mean we live in a world where 70% of GM and Ford cards are made outside the US. Even companies like Boeing, more than 60% of the parts are manufactured outside the US. It's about economics, people will buy most economical parts to make the product for the US. That means most of the ingredients will come from overseas.

Look at the recent fiasco with Chinese manufactured food additives. What about toy recall that contained lead in paint, made in China? The globalization has it's up and down but blaming few illegal aliens, remember that less than 5% of the total population is illegal at most, for woes of US economy is ludicrous. We should be working things that matter, keeping the technology edge by training our young minds to be technologically superior. We need to work it so the people in this country is more educated. Not blame a segment of people for the economy and try to spend even more money trying to keep them out.

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Seize the day and SING!!!

Huh? Are you kidding me? Unemployment data DOES NOT come from unemployment insurance claims directly. The data comes from national survey of available job versus other factors involved, including some data from unemployment insurance. Where did you get your facts?

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Seize the day and SING!!!

No,  I never have

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I thought you were done?  :D

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Seize the day and SING!!!

I have and you ain't missing too much, other than wonderful experience you will find meeting new people and new culture, if you have open mind.

I have seen too many travels with such closed mind, it frustrates me sometimes. I have been many Americans traveling abroad with this god complex and thinks that everyone should accommodate them, rather than try to blend in and experience the local culture.

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Seize the day and SING!!!

Huh? Are you kidding me? Unemployment data DOES NOT come from unemployment insurance claims directly. The data comes from national survey of available job versus other factors involved, including some data from unemployment insurance. Where did you get your facts?[/quote]From life... apparantly that's a mystery to some people who look at facts, but have blinders on for the rest of the situation.

The very way that they "determine" the unemployment rrate is via surveys... LIMITED surveys intended to give a cross-section of the whole data. It would be way too hard to call every employer, every city council, every source of information to determine who's employed.

The people that have been unemployed for longer than a year fall off the data chart that's tabulated... hence, the figures are skewd, if they were realistic at all.

I am done trying to apply experience and logic

You want a legal work force? I was here when we had one and I can tell you what broke it. And I can tell you how to fix it. But you would rather sit here and argue semantics and trivial crap. What broke it? He had good intentions to start with and had viable problems but start with Ceasar Chavez..

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Exactly, it's done via random survey. I don't see how a random survey would fall off because people are receiving unemployment or not. If they don't have a job, after a year they don't have a job, they don't have a job. If they have a job after a year, they have a job. The survey is meant so it's random and find out the overall trends. Unemployment, whether one year or six years, counts as unemployment when surveyed. How is that skew the data? I don't understand?

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Seize the day and SING!!!

Because my friend, when the reports come out, they not only talk about the Unemployment rate, but they also mention the benefits paid out that lessen... and think that Unemployment is improving.

It's not... people still don't have jobs, they just ran out of unemployment MONEY!