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First immigration statute was installed in 1875, to limit the criminals and prostitutes from entering the country freely. Before then, there were no laws regarding immigration at all. Anyone can enter the country.


Check out this article on immigration law history. Very interesting story. http://academic.udayton.edu/race/02rights/immigr01.htm

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Seize the day and SING!!!

The issue is clear to me, and I believe most people. The choice is yours, but the debate is pretty much over for me. There comes a time of decreasing marginal returns for the effort made. There is plenty of info out there that we have presented and also on the net. Most of the US including our government admits it is a problem. They just have mixed feelings on what to do or not do about it. So really there is nothing to debate. Regardless this will probably be about it for me. And no Eben you don't sound stupid to me  LMAO - so don't take it that way. I don't know you that well, or your background and reasons for your beliefs. You may be biased. You may not even realize it. If I am, then I suppose I don't either. But I can promise you it isn't about being rascist or not liking Mexicans. They are pretty cool people. I just think as citizens it is our right and responsibility to ourselve and our children to keep our 'house' in order. Hey I appreciate the info you and others have provided. You can all continue, but I think I am about done. I've got songs to post to SS man!  LMAO

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The Truth Is Out There

Main Entry          il-le-gal
Pronunciation     (")i(L)ie-gal
Function             adjective
Etymology          Middle French or Medieval Latin; Middle French illegal, from  
                        Medieval Latin illegalis from Latin in-+legalis  legal
Definition            Not according to or authorized by law : Unlawful, Illicit; also
                        not sanctioned by official rules.

I read that out of Websters, seems to me illegal is illegal, seems simple enough to understand. I didn't see any exceptions to the definition. Have you ever been pulled over for speeding and told the cop well, you know I'm late for work, and of course the cop say's well be on your way then, I just wanted to make sure you had a good reason to be speeding.....have a nice day. I'm sure that happens thousands of times a day. I'm sorry but it does seem that all this debating is really just trying to make excuses for breaking the law. If you don't like the laws, try and change them. I for one wish they would just enforce the laws they have.

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Quickness of mind will deceive the eye

I believe 40% of NYC is still "Immigrant".  Where did ANYBODY ever get the idea that going back to our earlier lineage, almost ALL were NOT legal Immigrants ?  If you are 100% Native American, you are what some might perceive to be 100% American.  At what point do we forget OUR OWN lineage and not extend priviledge given to our forefathers to others ?  Especially when given our current situation our businesses WISH for immigrants given few other reasonable options that currently exist.  Viewing ALL aspects that surround this (and there are numerous issues) the ideal solution involves compromise.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

It may be...like I say anything can be relative, but we have to draw the line somewhere. What do the current laws say, and how are they written. If it says let everyone in then I guess unless we change the law we have to let them in. Maybe that law is ok. I mean if they make it to the US and have a baby then yeah it's sanctuary, etc. I suppose those people should be in. That law isn't the problem it is the massive illegal invasion making the law occur constantly. It probably wouldn't bother me on a fairly small scale, but currently it is a titan.

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The Truth Is Out There

Ok, let me ask you this. You have NEVER in your life broken a single law? Did you jaywalk across a street? You did? How about make an illegal U-turn to save time? Anytime you forgot to pay for something unintentionally because you forgot you had it on you when you walked out the store? You should turn yourself in to local police right away then.  LOL

"let he who is without sin, cast the first stone" Revelation 22:14-15

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Seize the day and SING!!!

I didn't say I never broke the law, but when I did, I was held accountable.

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Quickness of mind will deceive the eye

Ok, I am going to shock you here. I agree with you that our law needs to be changed, maybe so that only legal residents who has babies in this country can claim their babies as US citizens.  :shock:

That being said, current law says those who are born in this country is a US citizen and we need to treat them as such. They should have just as much rights as those who have been here for multiple generation. The usual adage applies, if you don't like it, change the law.

As you said, if most of the people agrees with your view, this should be a slam dunk to change the law. I believe you only need 67% of the vote from the Congress and Senate to change an amendment to the Constitution.

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Seize the day and SING!!!

Are you telling me that every time you broke the law, you turned yourself in to be cited for your crimes? You never got away with the it? You were accountable every little law you broke by paying fines or whatever punishment you were due? Wow, you must be a saint.

I admit, I can't claim that. So, my hats off to you.

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Seize the day and SING!!!

What did they do before the illegal alien invasion Stephen? A few people in this thread used to pick crops. I used to know people that were in the home construction business. That's for the most part gone and completely taken over by illegal labor. There are plenty of legal US residents and students that would take a lot of those jobs. The difference is you have to remove the illegal price controls on wages. If you remove the illegal element the wages, and prices of products will go up and US workers will want them. In a free market, wages will continue rise to the point that someone will take the job. Example: Will you pick a bushel of berries for $.10 cents? No? The price will rise however high it has to. Will you pick a bushel of berries for $10,000?! Yes!! Somewhere in between is the actual price. If the price rises so high and is passed on to the consumer to the point that no one wants to pay the price then I say - 'tough'. Likely these business shouldn't be in business if they can't compete. Those owners need to do something else.

But that is my answer - legal market forces in a free trade economy.

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The Truth Is Out There

Well I shall just say that I have never committed a felony, not in my  plans for the immediate future either.  :no:

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Quickness of mind will deceive the eye

I'm not saying that "Illegal" is "Good",  but if you feel that our nation is overly concerned with "Legal", and by the books,  we have a lot of backtracking to do ?

At what point did most of our ancestors become "Legal" ?   Is most of big business "
Legal" ?   Is what our nation does to others always "Legal" ?  Is our FBI,  CIA and government known to not do things if they aren't "Legal"  ? My god,  sorry... but let's get something straight..  "Legal" is a Utopic word that died years ago even before our ancestors stole this country and killed many that might've actually been "Legal" ? I know what the definition of Illegal is, and while we kill cows to eat beef here, In India many die of starvation while the sacred cow stands. Legal to you and legal to me,  is often not what business is concerned about..  So yes,  we need to take a look INSIDE of this nation, and ask "What is it that people really support and want" Is it to save money and buy decent products affordably ?  Or is it to pay thru the nose so everything (in a Utopic nation) is Legal.. Assumning Legal is Good, and Illegal is Bad... According to whom ?  The question is, What our children learn in chruch on Sunday "Love they neighbor" becomes total hypocracy a day later in the business world where "Business is business" becomes the slogan for cutting a co-workers throat.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Yeah, that's a good link...good history.

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The Truth Is Out There

Let me give you an example, from farm prices since that's what we talked about. According to US Department of Labor statistics, a 1 lb or Red Delicious Apple cost about 70 cents in 1980 and in 2007, it costs 1.13. If you take the average inflation of 5%, let's be conservative and say average annual inflation of 4% compounded between 1980 and 2007, do you know what it should cost right now? $2.01 per lb.

Ok, so why the discrepancy? Yes, there were some increase in efficiency in harvesting but nothing to make that much difference. I believe that cheaper labor is one of the reasons why the prices did not keep up with the inflation.

I can show the same with Iceberg Lettuce, which was at $0.593 and it's at $0.856. If you do the same calculation, it should be at $1.29 each. I can show same thing on many of the produce we see.

Is this the only reason? No. However, I believe that it's one of major contributing reasons.

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Seize the day and SING!!!

What was BEFORE the illegal alien invasion ?  The Illegal alien invasion has been going on since this country was SUPPOSEDLY discovered in the 1400' and 1500's.  Arbitrarily a group one day decided "OK,  We are American and you are not".

You aren't going to turn the clocks back to the pre-30's Tax laws.  You aren't going to revoke todays government programs that support and supplement income that were non-existent many years back..  You aren't going to uninvent the lightbulb and make me type in here by candle-light.  

This is a VERY different time,  people WILL NOT take those jobs given todays options.  However, going back they did have systems that might work in part...  Get the prisoners to take some of these jobs... That might help a TINY bit.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Eben / Stephen, what do you feel is the right thing to do here? What is your solution?

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The Truth Is Out There

Well,  we must also factor in Climate conditions Eben.  At least here in the East Coast given certain conditions in California the price is erratic..  I've had to pay close to $5 for a head of Iceberg,  (well actually I didn't,  I opted for greenleaf instead) while two months later,  it dropped to 99 cents a head

Sorry,  I get your point..

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I think we need the labor force, make them legal. I think we are trying to do that in California, where almost 40% of the nation's produce is picked.

What I think we need is to create a class of people who are not illegal but have right to come and work in this country. To me, economically, it makes no sense to shut those people out.

Look at the economy in Germany after the wall came down. There were plenty of cheap labor in East Germany so West German companies set up shop and utilized the cheap labor to gain an economical advantage in the world. I think we can follow that.

Just make them legal to enter to work. They are already paying back to the economy so the only argument is whether they are legal or illegal. Make them legal, just not a permanent resident or a citizen.

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Seize the day and SING!!!

I think my view here is the current law. I was agreeing with Stephen. I think if people can fight and find a way here and reach the US - they have a baby, then yes, probably they should be citizens if born on our soil. What I said was separately we need to stop the tidal wave of illegals entering constantly so that this scenario (baby of illegals born on US soil  granted citizenship) doesn't happen all the time.

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The Truth Is Out There

This is a VERY difficult situation given the variables we are viewing, and again, there are many.  I have never debated this issue,  actually never even thought about it til this thread.  I will defer this to Eben.  I am viewing certain points as they come up, and trying to figure out based on what I'm reading what likely will be met with opposition, and loopholes given what currently "is"..

I don't know yet.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".