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Ok,  LMAO  LMAO I guess after all of this I should address the fence no?  LMAO After all that is what the topic is all about. Hmmm....

My viewpoint probably doesn't matter much as I am just one individual, but I do think the fence is a good idea. I am for the fence, or a fence. Although I think it should be much longer and control both the Mexican, and Canadian border. That's right it's not just about illegal Mexicans. It's about anybody here that shouldn't be including terrorists.

However this is a much bigger issue than just a fence issue, and more is required. I won't claim to have the perfect take on this but here is some of what I think.

1) For the fence it should be not just a physical wall, but also have technology and whatever infrastructure, people, equipment needed to accurately keep the rate of transgression over it low.
2) Employers should be severely penalized for hiring illegals. As someone stated if you kill the reason to go over the border you have solved the problem.
3) Probably many / most illegals should just be sent back home, but I may be able to live with some sort of amnesty / path to citizenship if they first stop the flow of illegals coming into the country.
4) This country should work with the Mexican government to find ways help the prosperity of the Mexican people. The US should discourage human rights violations, and support reforms to change the corrupt Mexican nation.
5) This country should support and maintain a determined, justifiable, and useful immigration rate for those that wish to be US citizens and learn it's laws, and language, etc.
6) Work will need to be done to deal with the economic pitfalls of jobs, the economy, prices, etc when all the illegals left. Should the government sponsor this change after all it is based on illegal activity. Or should they just let such infrastructure go out of business. I probably support the go out of business approach unless someone can convince me.
7) Something socially needs to be done about the havoc already caused by the influx of alien activity and the disruption to lives, and services. The government may have to pay people back for their losses due to their failure to secure the border - which BTW is the foremost role of a nation's government which they have miserably failed in.
There needs to be a lot of charity outreaches to Mexico and the Mexican people. The Christian Church typically takes on a lot of this type of thing, but may need to step up more. Perhaps that's one way to stop the corruption in Mexico.

What did I leave out? Any others have any good ideas?

The wall will cost a lot, and the disruption of removing illegals will have a high cost and in more ways that just money, but it my opinion, it is far lower than the cost of doing nothing and letting the current trends continue.

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The Truth Is Out There

Yeah, I don't like this either. Our country is so screwed up. We are training our future competition. I remember studying in college about how the Japanese studied and learned our management philosophies. We also helped build their steel industry. This is all fine and good, and I am all for charity, but we are running ourselves out of business. It was after this training that the Japanese auto and steel industries got so strong. Now (I believe it is Toyota) is the number one selling auto. The same thing is happening with India, and China, etc. They have been trained by us, and they have then enjoyed our corporate plants on their soil building our high tech items. During that time they learned how to copy the tech and now make it cheaper than us. We are out of many of those businesses. The US is divided and stupid, and that makes it weak. Good one Eben, another mega trend of why the future does not look so bright for us. Oh, and what about those high school students not attending college?  LMAO  No worries, let's just bring in some foreigners they will pay the tab. In the meantime throw in some more illegal alien cost, and disruption to our education system. Wonder why fewer US students are going to college?

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Not in the produce industry. I just read yesterday or the day before that it was less than 10%. I can try and find the reference if you want. It depends of course on the product. Labor is much higher in housing, and yes I can assume homes would go up considerably. It would suck for awhile as we all dealt with an increase in home prices...oh wait I'm already a home owner so I guess those increases wouldn't suck for me. Regardless, our economy with regard to housing would eventually adjust. But yes, prices will go up. We've all been paying illegally low costs for some time, and the business owners have been making bigger illegal profits because of it. So there you go I just gave you one positive of illegal aliens. I already knew that though. I still think their are far more losses than gains though.

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The Truth Is Out There

In theory it might appear that Welfare reform can help get people to take certain jobs, but in reality not the jobs the immigrants are willing to work.


I am going to state a thought that backs up Ebens idea regarding the fact that under our current system you really can't force American citizens to take the types of jobs the Immigrants are willing to take..   However what I am going to say also varies because I believe whether "Welfare" or "SSI and Title-19 current welfare exploitation allows for ways Americans can and will currently exploit a system despite it being somewhat improved by the Welfare reform act of 1996.  None-the-less,  What I believe to be the case DOES NOT support a means given our current system that would in fact get American citizens to take *certain jobs*. In actuality it won't help although on paper it will appear to help.

I think much of the problem with our current welfare and poverty system is that the government will never really force a person to do anything, an incentive program to help people that wish to work and bring them out've the poverty level by subsidizing income I think would in the long haul end up more successful and even less costly. But still, these aren't the types of jobs (the jobs the immigrants are taking) that when given some thought really would work just be limiting welfare terms given other available options to lower income people, in some cases a person MUST have a reason to wish to work, and go out've the way to do something,  otherwise there are TOO many loopholes, and why would an employer keep an individual that "Sits on his hands in an onion field instead of at home" ? There are obstacles such as transportation (and I suppose making businesses supply transportation of some means would be helpful but still, if lazy people don't wish to do these jobs, and they are made to take them, they can still just sit on their hands at these jobs... What would make this appealing to the employers of the businesses ?  

In the United States,  how can you make a citizen "take a job", especially when in doing so, they even will lose benefits and entitlement ?  Where's the incentive given such a system.. and this is where things become so complex..

Consider the 1996 Welfare Reform Act which might've helped somewhat It doesn't really force people to do much more than show that they are attempting to do something (and I suppose of course in some cases this can help somewhat, but only to a point, You aren't going to be able to force people to take crop and field jobs
they really don't want... Heck,  than they'll hurt themselves and claim SSI, come down with Asthma,  show they physically can't handle such jobs and get depressed ending up on Title 2 disability.  So here's what happens  according to my understanding of the current welfare reform act. After two years a person must go to school, or train for work, and supposedly at that point they are evaluated once again.. but you still get exploitation of a system, meaning what determines WHAT jobs these people can take, and for what reasons assuming they act ? Do you believe our beaurocratic systems are expert gages of this ? While the current system can help SOMEWHAT what it doesn't do is arm-twist anyone to take certain jobs, so after giving this some thought I have to agree with Eben, and also agree that as currently set up, you aren't going to be able to get people to take, or even TO these jobs, and force them to be productive (US citizens that is).. Welfare reform act (mothers with children under 2 are exempt and than at times have more babies to stay on- yet another problem), AND what about a person that just can't get to these jobs because transportation doesn't exist etc, who's going to move them ?  and to where ?

So you drop them from "Welfare", and they picku a different entitlement program by not working  given current setup of a system..Poverty system entitlement is setup in a means that really ends up couterproductive to people wishing to stay in low wage positions...Example:

Off Welfare, but on a different type of poverty system such as Title-19 which gives medical benefits provided a person IS NOT working or above a very low income/combined asset value level.  Working would disqualify them so while they
might get kicked off've welfare,  they can still receive title-19 assuming
they are in a poverty bracket with around under 1600 total assets. Once on Title 19 a person can get medicaid which gives them more than most lower wage jobs.  Now true,  some have more dignity and DO want to work, but it becomes a really complex situation, because viewed from the perspective of many immigrants these jobs that Americans can't beforced to take, are still an incentive over what many immigrants currently have prior to coming to this country given what opportunities exist or what potential exist once here, but in this country all I can see working is incentive to bring people out've the povertylevel by taking certain jobs and of course forming transportation systems to some of these remote farm areas IF this cane possibly work ?  Making these jobs appear as punishment (that lies ahead once
they are thrown off've welfare) because realistically there are OTHER programs for those in low income brackets, and our government won't MAKE a person something that realistically can be avoided in a numberof ways...

Make me take a grounds job...  I can get out've it in our current
system by not being healthy enough to be productive.. Little incentive for a
boss to keep me,  so I end up on a program again.

It's obvious to me that there are REAL reasons as I stated earlier, (which is at least often the case for a given time) Employers want hard workers in areas they won't otherwise find such productivity,  Many immigrants DO have a zeal to work and work hard in this country so Immigrants ARE wanted !  While they might eventually go after the better jobs.. In a free enterprise system this will happen,  If bosses wish to hire them, of course they have such a right.. People don't only leave current jobs to take other jobs,  at times people are exploited and must look elsewhere.. Can you force your bosses to hire the professional qualified KJ ?  I cited earlier some of the problems with trying to enforce businesses paying more, for less productive labor.  It can really backfire in time and when it does, the consumer will be screaming  "I shouldn't have to pay so much for damn onions".

Whether people see this or not,  whether the topic is mexican people immigrating here, or us subcontracting work to them in Mexico,  MANY American people DO support a less costly but decent product manufactured where laborers work hard and for less money.  End result,  Mexican or Japanese or Korean, and at one time Made In India Stratocaster for much less money than the Made in USA guitar.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I hate to answer all of these, but since I am here - perusing through all the thread and just in case no one answered here is mine:

The difference is legal forefathers (for the most part) rather than illegal forefathers. Also what we are discussing is a very large scale illegal immigration. In my opinion likely this was never intended by those who created that law, and I believe they never would have never had it apply in that situation. Many are considering / trying to change that law.

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The Truth Is Out There

I'm just waiting for the giant class action lawsuit against the government for it's failure to protect and defend the borders.  :rotflmao: . I'm surprised one hasn't been filed yet, or has it?

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The Truth Is Out There

The SSN is used to get employment. It is used and abused to open other doors. It has nothing to to do with the child.

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You know, I've been reading some of the stats in more detail that I posted. This is absurd! There is no debate here. There is no question (at least in my mind) that the illegal alien invasion is a massive problem. I doubt I will continue to debate it. After what has been posted I don't see how anyone that is pseudo intelligent, honest, and without an agenda can deny it. Debate Over!

The only question is will a wall work, and is that something we want? If not, what else will solve the situation.

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The Truth Is Out There

Couple of points on this. First, yes, initially the US trained some Japanese and other manufacturing companies overseas. However, if you look at the management philosophy adapted by many US companies in the 90s were from Japan. Kansei and six sigma were all developed in Japan and brought to use in US by companies like Motorola to success. It wasn't until the Japanese car makers were using Just In Time (JIT) manufacturing process to success that US companies were following suit. It's not just copying the technology but improving it was what made them successful.

Fewer US students are going to college, specially in technical fields is the perception of what teenagers consider cool. Seriously, how many time people called math or science majors geeks and nerds? That seriously curved many US kids to go to college to study technical fields, like engineering. If you look at the majority of the technical degrees, they are the ones where people from overseas are going to school for. Not too many English or Literature majors who are from overseas. These engineers are the ones who gets the degree and go somewhere else to succeed because they came here as a legal visitor.

Less enrollment by US resident was by their choice, not because the positions were forced out by outsiders. Universities are the last vestige of fairness, other than some religious schools and some athletes, they still only accept those who are best qualified. Only the best of the best will get in to best schools, period. Some may argue that there is a favoritism towards minorities with all the programs they have available for them. Not always true.

At least here in California, and other elite schools around the nation, Asians, with only 11.5% of the population in the US, are not considered minority anymore and they don't get any special treatment when entering schools. Matter of fact, they are trying to limit the number of Asians entering schools although they were more qualified then many Caucasians. Currently over 50% of the enrolled students at University of California system are Asians. Are they there because they don't belong? I don't think so, they just have better grades, test scores, etc.

If we want to fix the brain drain issue in the US, it's about better education so people would want to go in to those important fields and study. Blaming illegal immigrants, specially those from Mexico doesn't fix the problem. It has very little to do with this particular issue.

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Because, every post you made was about some article that said things about immigration went bad. Or something that an immigrant that did something bad. Just a hunch, I never said you were against it, just asking the question.




So, what is wrong with that? If immigration does not bother you at all, and majority if not most of these people are legal immigrants (10 to 1 ratio as I have shown before between legal and illegal immigrants coming to this country) why did you post that article? Just curious.

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Let me clarify that further. It was the thoughts of our forefather to have any immigration. In those days, everyone was illegal because there were no immigration laws. They welcomed everyone in to the country with any papers or invitations. So, when it was written, their intention was to have anyone who wants to come in, they can.

Right now, the debate is different because of there are laws governing the immigration. However, if you really took the forefathers' intentions, it applies to all.

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Seize the day and SING!!!

Ok, let me ask you this then. If someone gets the SSN, are they not paying taxes when they work? Because as far as I know, if you get a job, set aside legal versus illegal for a second, and you furnish the SSN number, the company is required to take out taxes. You and others are saying that the illegals are using fake SSN to work in this country and they are abusing the system by taking all the benefits, are they not paying taxes to pay back to the society? Hmm, I am sure most people pay at least 20% federal tax, and I have to pay like 11% state tax on top. I have to pay FICA, unemployment insurance, etc. If they have SSN, they have to also. So, what is the problem economically?

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Seize the day and SING!!!

So, you are calling me stupid, dishonest and with an agenda?  LMAO

I doubt that the debate is over. No one changes their mind and each person thinks that they are right anyways. I tried to keep it civil and entertaining.  That's all.

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Seize the day and SING!!!

IMHO this is rhetorical.  It's subjective, arguable, and "For the most part" can be tantamount to my robbing somebody of 1 million 20 years ago,  getting away with it, and claiming I'm a millionaire today.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Bill I have spent a lot of time in Mexico and I dont have any ideas but as long as we supply the welfare and high paying jobs there will be no wall. It will take a joint effort between this country and theirs.

Count missle schools and 2 years shore I was stationed at WSMR southern new mexico fo r 2 1/2 years.. On a daily basis hundreds of green carders were bussed from Jaurez to work on the base (missle test facility including icbm's)

Now with present technologies we cant supply the farmers with legal green carded laborers? I guess not.... The cost of dealing with legals (housing etc) gradually outweighed the temptation of illegals In other words the working system was over regulated and broke.

If we dont solve this problem then our homeland security is really in trouble.

I am going to make one more observation then I am done.

It is a sad state of affairs when a mother (citazen of this nation) can have her children stripped from her arms on suspicion of breaking laws yet an illegal who is breaking federal laws and thumbing his nose can have a baby and become immune and have more rights than citazens.

I Am Done.

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National Sovereignty is a WHOLE separate debate.  We are a country that trades and does business with other wealthy nations, Our businesses and our consumers are all about money.  There's a huge economic aspect to all this, and as of yet, I've seen NOBODY propose who'll take these jobs given our current system.
There are MANY stances on this.  Since so many perspectives oppose other stances there's immense complexity, to view this thru tunnel-vision is not to see the issue far enough away from the stage to understand it. To quote me as saying "The Mexicans are OK"  really misses the whole point of what I stated.  I am not judging this as a Mexican, or other nationality issue, I am stating our nation is sending out VERY mixed messages.. You can't cross our border... but our businesses have a place for you if you can;  Similarly I can turn this around and ask you "assuming they aren't OK WHO is going to take these jobs" ? and how will this resolve from an economic perspective ?   OK vs not OK is neither here nor there.. anymore than our great great grandparents were "OK, or not OK"...  Unless you wish to qualify what deems a person vs a nationality as being "OK".  To some of you, they are not "OK",  from the perspective of some of us,  and certain businesses they help the economy, and from an ethical standpoint, many other things must NOT be forgotten lest we become a nation of hypocritical inconsistent people that have certain laws written, but we still operate in an anacharchal manner,  arbitrarily.




Yes Bill,  Businesses DO have agendas.  Call this the USA (United States of Agendas), buyers as well like to maximise savings when possible. In this country businesses have an amount of control.  I still don't understand in reality,  WHO will work these jobs ?

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

First, it's spelled citizen, not citazen. Second, I have no clue where this comes from. Let me see if I can clarify this. What you are saying is that if someone broke a law, the child protective agency will take away the child because the parent is in jail. So far right? However, if someone from Mexico breaks the federal law and come to this country and have a baby who is a citizen, they are immune from any agencies like child protective agency? So, they have more legal rights then those who are citizens? Did I get that right?

So, it sounds like what you are saying is that if you are a citizen who were here for more than one generation, they should have same rights as those who are first generation citizens who were born here, is that about right?

So, where do we draw the line? One generation? Two generations? Three generations? Where is the injustice that effect these people? It only effects those who were here three generations ago? So, there should be a different law applied to those who are first generation citizen versus third or fourth generation? What is your point?

Those kids who are born here are citizens by federal law. What rights do they have that's more than yours, who is like 7th generation?

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Seize the day and SING!!!

I think some of what you say is true - a lot I agree with. Here's what I would add:

It is true that Japan and perhaps other countries took what we had, improved it and made it better. However we did give them a start. I don't know if that was so wrong though because they are our allies and friends but the problem is we sat on our butts. Still though, we helped do this to ourselves and it is an example IMO of how we are working to our own demise.

Probably true what you say about geeks and what is cool too - people not wanting to succeed and further themselves. That is because of culture, and I don't think the problem with illegal immigration in education is helping that trend. There are a lot of other problems too. Truth is as a country we may have to lose all or most of everything until we realize that we have something to fight for and protect.

I haven't given it a ton of thought, but generally from what I have thought about it I don't think University's should just be training anyone and everyone. I remember being around the University of Texas in Engineering and Computer Science and we are just giving it away and training the world. There's probably a place for some of that, but I think we are over doing it now, and somehow we need to get our own kids to succeed more.

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If that's true, then it's very interesting. Do you have some info on this? On the other hand when our country was first settled the population was very low, and they encouraged settlement. Later they did establish laws, and criteria for entry. Obviously there comes a point where we have grown enough and don't really need more immigrants as a country. I suppose it is debateable as to if that point has arrived yet.

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Yep, I agree with you on most part, except for the last part. We do need to educate our kids so they do want to study engineering or other technical area so we don't have to sit on our butt and hope we get better than the rest of the world. One reason why the Silicon Valley has been successful for the last 50 plus years, since the beginning of HP, no one here sits on our butt and wait, we try to do things better all the time, whether we need it or not. That's just ingrained in to the culture here.

As for shutting down the university, I would see that as a sad say when we do that. Yes, we do have a great educational system but those who come here to learn, there as many of us who go abroad to learn as well. If look at the Nobel Laureates in the past, not all of them are Americans. Matter of fact, majority are not Americans. In addition, Americans who got a Nobel prize had a colleague who won with them from another part of the world. Education should be freely spread around, not protected. Otherwise, we wouldn't have the scientific breakthroughs we need for humanity.

Just as a point, U.C. Berkeley has more Nobel winners than any other Universities in the world. However, those Nobel Laureates, many of them are visiting scholars from other parts of the world. If we restricted education, these people would never come here to teach our people on cutting edge education.

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