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, ok he showed a web page of some organization that is against the immigration and called it a fact? I am sorry. That doesn't work for me as a number. Every number I have quoted so far came directly from the state's own web site, not some organization that is biased and probably made up those numbers anyways. It's like asking president Bush to give us an update on what's going on on war in Iraq. All thumbs up I bet.

My ancestors did not sneak into this country and have babies for assistance or subsistence.

Along with my oath to defend the constitution the 14th amendment is included.
The 14thamendment was not written for this abuse It was actually written for the slaves and aided in their emancipation.

Some other things you probably didn't know:

   * Cities that receive the largest numbers of immigrants also have twice the unemployment rate, 40% more people living in poverty, and 40% more serious crime per capita than cities with few or no immigrant arrivals. (1)
   * Some 11.2 million immigrants arrived in the USA between 1990 and 2000. This, added to the 6.4 million children born to immigrants living in the USA, accounts for almost 70% of the US population growth in the past decade. (3)
   * Immigrants now represent more than one in every tenUS residents, the highest percentage in 70 years. (4)
   * Over the next 50 years, the US Census Bureau projects that immigration will cause the population of the United States to increase from its present 270 million to more than 400 million. (9)
   * Nationwide, 33% of Third World immigrants who settled in the USA since 1990, live in poverty, nearly three times the rate for US-born natives. Some 36% of immigrants failed to finish high school, more than double the percentage for US-born nationals. (12)
   * About 15% of US citizens fall below the poverty line,compared to 29% of non-citizens. About 11% of non-citizens have incomes less than 50% of the poverty line, compared to 6% of citizens. (13)
   * The number of impoverished people in the USA's immigrant-headed households nearly tripled from 2.7 million in 1979 to 7.7 million in 1997. (14)  During that same period, the number of poor households headed by immigrants increased by 123% while the number of immigrant households increased by 68%. (15)  
   * According to Forbes Magazine, a greater proportion of the US population is currently living in poverty than what was the case three decades ago. (16)  According to Forbes Magazine, Significantly, Hispanics accounted for a statistical 0% of the nation's poor in 1959. (17)
   * Hispanics first entered the tables in 1972, making up 1.1% of the USA's poor in that year. By 1996, Hispanics made up 2.7% of the nation's poor - almost equivalent to the Black figure. (18)
   * Forbes Magazine identified the leap in Hispanic poverty rates as being dueto their numbers being "fed by immigration." (19)
   * According to the US Census Bureau, Current Population Survey, March 2001, some 22.1% of Blacks were below the official poverty line. This compares with 21.2% of Hispanics; 10.8% of Asians and Pacific Islanders; and 7.5% of White non-Hispanics. (20)
   * According to the Puerto Rican/Hispanic Institute for the Elderly in New York, about 23.8% of elderly Hispanics in the United States live in poverty, with no prospects of improvement in their situation. (21)
   * In 1997, 25% of all children in California were living below the poverty line. (24)  
   * The number of children living in poverty in California had increased by more than 3% from 1990 to 1997. (25)
   * In the Appalachia, Mississippi Delta, Black Hills, and Los Angeles areas, more than 30% of Hispanics are below the poverty line. (28)
   * According to a survey by the University of California at San Francisco and the Field Institute, Latinos are 13 times more likely to be part of the working poor -- defined in the survey as a family off our earning less than $20,000. (29)
   * Denver's five poorest neighborhoods are populated mostly by Hispanics that only speak Spanish, particularly in the northern part of the city. (31)  In these neighborhoods, 80% of the children receive food coupons, and are responsible for 37% of the city's crime rate. (32)
   * The number of people in poverty living in immigrant households in Arizona has nearly tripled to 330,000 from 113,000 during the 1990s. During that same time, immigrant households rose to 41%, from 20% of the total of poverty-level households. (35)
   * In 1996, according to the Immigration and Naturalization Service, 1.2 million newcomers joined the US population - yet fewer than 5% were admitted because of their job skills. (36) Most of the rest were allowed in because they were relatives of US citizens or other immigrants or were refugees, and a quarter of the total were illegal immigrants. (37)
   * During the 1990s, more than 1.3 million people with less than a high school education entered the USA. (38) Ofthose who arrived in this decade, 34.4% were school dropouts. (39)
   * In 1998, nearly 40% of immigrants had less than a high school education - double the share for natives, according to the 1990 census figures. The gap widens when grade school education is considered. Some 23% of immigrants have less than nine years of education,compared with just 4% of Americans. (40)
   * Only 8% of California Latinos have a bachelor's degree or higher, compared with 43% of Asians, 33% of whites and 24% of African Americans, according to the California Research Bureau. (42)
   * Latinos in California have the highest high school dropout rate (45%), lowest college graduation rate (8%) and, not surprisingly, the lowest median income ($14,560). (45)
   *  The Latino education gap in California is not new. Previous studies showthe same was true as far back as the 1940s. (46)
   * The high school dropout rate in most Latin American countries exceeds 50%. (48)
   * Mexico, for example, has an illiteracy rate in excess of 10%, and Guatemala has an illiteracy rate of over 40%. (49)
   * Median household income in the New York areas of Queens, Brooklyn, Suffolk, Fairfield, favored by immigrants, dropped between 1989 and 1998. This was also the case in many other countiesacross the nation that experienced a large influx of immigrants, according to census data. (50)
   * The data show that in Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx - counties with a major increase of immigrants - median income fell sharply. (51)  In Queens, according to the data, the median household income fell from $44,938 in 1989, to $36,480 in 1998, a drop of nearly 19%, while in Brooklyn it fell by 18%, from $33,762 to $27,556. (52)
   * Median income also fell in many counties in other states attractive to immigrants, including Los Angeles County and Miami-Dade County. (53)  In Los Angeles County, where there has been a surge of immigrants from Mexico, median income fell in constant dollars from $45,962 in 1989 to $37,655 in 1998, a decline of 18%. (54)

EVERY 100 MANUAL LABOR IMMIGRANT JOBS CREATE 139 EXTRA POVERTY CASES

   * A study of 65 rural communities in California's San Joaquin Valley between 1980 and 1990, found that the addition of 100 farm jobs resulted in an additional 139 people - including immigrants, their families and area residents - living in poverty. (59) This statistic is driven by the low wages paid to the farm worker, who inturn is then unable to support dependents, creating the social welfare problem.
   * A Rand study looked at the nine million net new jobs created in California from 1960 to 1990. It found that three-fourths of the new jobs were filled by workers with at least some college education, and almost all of the rest were filled by high school graduates. (62)
   * Furthermore, the share filled by workers with some college education has risen over the years, the Rand study found. By the 1980s, some 96% of net new jobs were filled by such workers. (63)
   * According to a survey by the University of California at San Francisco and the Field Institute, Latinos are much less likely to benefit from the state's explosion in job growth because they are less likely to finish high school or attend college. (64)
   * According to the survey, 56% of the state's Latinos had an education level of high school or lower, compared to 28% of blacks, 14% of whites, and 11% of Asians. (65)

THIRD WORLD IMMIGRANT CRIMINALS FILL UP 25% OF FEDERAL PRISONS

   * Criminal immigrants account for more than 25% of all inmates in federal prisons and is the fastest growing segment of the prison population. (66)
   * The federal prison population of non-citizens has increased by about 15% per year from the mid-1980s to the present. Upkeep for each prisoner costs the taxpayers $21,300 per year. (67)
   * Some 80% of cocaine and 50% of heroin in the US is smuggled across the border by Mexican nationals. (68) Taxpayers pay half-a-billion dollars per year incarcerating illegal alien criminals. (69)
   * In 1994, the state of Florida sued the federal government, seeking reimbursement for the $884 million a year the state spends on services to illegal aliens. Florida spent $27.6 million in 1993 to arrest, try and jail illegal immigrants charged with crimes in that state alone. (70)
   * In addition, state and local authorities were spending more than $500 million a year to arrest and imprison illegal immigrants who committed serious crimes. (71)  New YorkState estimated these added costs at $270 million, while Illinois estimated that it spends $40 million per year for incarceration alone. (72)
   * The demand for falsified documents in southern and coastal states has created a thriving underworld industry in counterfeiting, thievery, and forgery. For as little as $40 per person,illegal aliens can purchase documents that provide them with entitlement to health care, welfare, and work privileges. (73)
   * According to an April 1997 report from the Associated Press, more than 180,000 aliens were granted US citizenship in 1996 without the mandatory criminal background checks. (74)
   * An Associated Press report in February 1997, said the Citizenship USA project, pushed by the White House in 1996 to expedite admission of 1.3 million aliens, allowed as many as 130,000 criminals into the USA from Mexico, South America, and the Caribbean. (75)

THIRD WORLD IMMIGRANT UNEMPLOYMENT

   * According to the Urban Institute, the highest rates of welfare dependency are in the agricultural counties of California, where unemployment rates are also high. In the heart of California's San Joaquin Valley, for example, 29% of the residents of Fresno (761,000 population), 30% of Merced (199,000) and 25% of Tulare (362,000) county residents were on public assistance in 1996. At the same time, unemployment rates were in double digits, even in the peak spring and summer months. (77)
   * If it were a state -- and with 3 million residents, its population rivals Oregon's -- the Valley would have the nation's worst economy. Unemployment averages out at 12.4% for the entire region, nearly twice as high as West Virginia's. (78)
   * In South Central Los Angeles - another high-density immigrant center - the unemployment rate hovers around 20% (four times the state average) and the poverty rate is 40%. This figure has risen consistently over the last ten years. (82)

THIRD WORLD IMMIGRATION'S EFFECT ON THE USA LABOR MARKET

   * An estimated 1,880,000 American workers are displaced from their jobs every year by immigration; the cost for providing welfare and assistance to these Americans is over $15 billion a year. (83)
   * It is estimated that between 40 and 50% of wage-loss among low-skilled Americans is due to the immigration of low-skilled workers. (84)

THIRD WORLD IMMIGRANT WELFARE USAGE

   * The proportion of immigrant households using welfare programs is estimated by the Center for Immigration Studies to be between 30% to 50% higher than that of US-born citizens. (85)
   * According to the ‘Immigrants and Welfare, Research Perspectives on Migration' report released by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace -- International Migration Policy Project, immigrant use of welfare has been rising, regardless of how "immigrant" and "welfare" are defined. (86)
   * Immigrants in California are three times more likely to receive welfare than native-born residents, a dramatic difference that is not seen in other states with burgeoning immigrant populations, according to a report by the US General Accounting Office. (87)
   * Forty-six% of California's children live in families with incomes low enough to qualify for subsidized school meals ($29,000 or less annually for a family of four). Child-care costs, averaging $407 monthly for a preschooler, amount to one-half the earnings of a full-time, minimum-wage worker. (88)
   * Over 60% of Hispanic households in the Alexandria, Virginia area, receive assistance from federal or state programs for low-income residents. Forty-four% of Hispanic families get subsidized school lunches for their children. (89)
   * Bearing in mind that about 37% of immigrants in Phoenix, Arizona, and 36% statewide fall below the poverty level, (90) the news that the number of people living below the federal poverty level in that state, soared nearly 90% since 1989, should come as no surprise.The state population grew about 30% in that time. (91)

HEALTHCARE BURDEN

   * Immigrants who arrived in the US after 1989 and their US-born children account for 60% or 5.5 million of the increase in the size of the uninsured medical health population. (92)
   * The low health insurance rate means that these Third World immigrants show up at the emergency rooms of America's hospitals because they cannot afford medical care.
   * Dozens of hospitals in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California, have been forced to close or face bankruptcy because of federally-mandated programs requiring free emergency room services to illegal aliens. (93)
   * In a recent year in Colorado, the state's emergency Medicaid program paid an estimated $30 million in hospital and physician delivery costs for about 6,000 illegal immigrant mothers - an average of $5,000 per baby. Those 6,000 births to illegal aliens represent 40% of the births paid for by Medicaid in Colorado. Those 6,000 babies immediately became US citizens and qualified for full Medicaid services, with a cost yet to be tabulated. (94)
   * In addition to general welfare, the GAO -- the investigative arm of Congress -- has documented similar differences in the use of Medicaid, the nation's health insurance program for the needy. In California, for instance, the number of citizens naturalized in fiscal years 1996 and 1997 receiving Medi-Cal (California's Medicaid program) was 23.7%, compared with 8.2% for native-born citizens. (95)

THE FINANCIAL BURDEN OF THIRD WORLD IMMIGRATION

   * The net annual cost of immigration has been estimated at between $67 and $87 billion a year. The National Academy of Sciences found that the net fiscal drain on American taxpayers is between $166 and $226 a year per native household. Even studies claiming some modest overall gain for the economy from immigration ($1 to $10 billion a year) have found that it is outweighed by the fiscal cost ($15 to $20 billion a year) to native taxpayers. (96)
   * The net deficit is caused by a low level of tax payments by immigrants, because they are disproportionately low-skilled and thus earn low wages, and a higher rate of consumption of government services, both because of their relative poverty and their higher fertility. (97)
   * The federal government currently provides targeted services to migrant and seasonal farm workers and their dependents that cost about $600 million per year, equivalent to ten% of these workers annual earnings. (98)
   * According to the ‘Immigrants and Welfare, Research Perspectives on Migration' report released by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace -- International Migration Policy Project, approximately 1.4 million immigrants receive AFDC or SSI payments totaling $4.5 billion annually. (99)
   * Their average monthly AFDC payment is $133; their average SSI payment is $407. Estimates using a more broadly defined package of benefits and counting benefits from state and local as well as federal sources indicate that immigrants receive approximately $25 billion annually in assistance benefits. (100)

IMMIGRATION'S IMPACT AND COST ON PUBLIC SCHOOLS

   * The USA's public schools are already overcrowded with six million more children in schools today than in the late 1980s. (101) In 2002, school attendance rose from the 1997 level of 50 million students in primary and secondary education to more than 55 million - directly as a result of immigration. (102)
   * The Urban Institute estimates that the cost of educating illegal alien children in the nation's seven states with the highest concentration of illegal aliens was $3.1 billion in 1993 (which,with the growth of their population to 1.3 million, was more than $5 billion in 2000). This estimate does not take into account the additional costs of bilingual education or other special educational needs. (104)
   * The Carrying Capacity Network, a non-profit group that studies growth and environmental issues, estimated in 1994 that legal and illegal immigrants have cost Florida $3.3 billion since 1970. (105)
   * In California, the already mentioned cause and effect of a one-person increase in farm employment creating a 0.67-person increase in welfare use, means an additional annual welfare cost of $954 per farm job. (106)
   * Since farm workers in California in 1990 earned an average $7,320, each farm job was associated with a welfare payment equivalent to approximately 13% of average farm earnings. (107)
   * The costs of illegal immigration in terms of government expenditures for education, criminal justice, and emergency medical care are significant. California has estimated that the net cost to the state of providing government services to illegal immigrants approached $3 billion during a single fiscal year. (108)
   * Stretched to the limit by these burdensome costs, the state of California sued the federal government in 1993 for $10.5 billion to recover the costs of education, health care, policing, and other administrative services for legal and illegal immigration. (109)

ASIAN IMMIGRATION MYTHS It is often thought that Asian immigration to the USA does not fall into these damning statistical breakdowns. While it is true that Asian immigrants to the USA fare on average better than immigrants from other parts of the Third World, it is a myth that all is well with the Asian immigrant community.

   * According to the March 2001 US Census Bureau, Current Population Survey, some 10.8% of Asians and Pacific Islanders were below the official poverty line. (110)
   * In 1993, a study that showed that despite a ‘model minority' stereotypical image of being self-sufficient, 55% of elderly Chinese immigrants in California received public assistance, mostlySupplemental Security Income. (111)
   * Among elderly Vietnamese immigrants, the figure was 74%, compared with 21% of Mexican immigrants and nine% of the native-born elderly. (112)
   * Arrest rates for American Asians are higher than Whites for gambling, gangsterism and youth homicide. Asians make up half of all gang arrests in Seattle, and their gang rate relative to population increased to nearly even with Blacks in the city by 1994. A 1992 Los Angeles study showed that Asians are 13 times more likely than Whites to be members of gangs. (113)
   * Nationally, Asian poverty is slightly worse than the White average. Asian poverty rates in some urban areas are equal to, or worse, than blacks. Asian poverty in many census tracts ranges in the ghetto definition range, from 40% up to 70%. Asian per capita income is often comparable or worse than Blacks in urban areas. In San Francisco, Asian poverty rates are equal to those of Blacks for the equivalent family structure. (114)

(1) Immigration, Coral Ridge Ministries, 1997, http://www.leaderu.com/issues/fabric/chap12.html

(2)  Immigrants Revitalize America's Cities, American Immigration Law Foundation, http://www.ailf.org/pubed/cities.htm

(3 - 7) Out of Control Immigration, National Anxiety Centre, 2001, http://www.anxietycenter.com/immigratio ... ontrol.htm

(8 - 9) Current Numbers, Center for Immigration Studies, http://www.cis.org/topics/currentnumbers.html

(10 - 11)  Out of Control Immigration, National Anxiety Centre, 2001, http://www.anxietycenter.com/immigratio ... ontrol.htm

(12) US Prosperity Eludes Millions of Newcomers, Washington Post, May 10 1997

(13) Immigrants and Welfare, Research Perspectives on Migration, Vol. 1, No. 1, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace -- International Migration Policy Project, http://www.immigration-usa.com/immigran ... lfare.html

(14 - 15) Immigrants' Growing Role in US Poverty Cited, The Washington Post, September 2, 1999, http://search.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv ... 9-idx.html

(16 - 19 ) Forbes Magazine, 1998, http://www.forbes.com/forbes/98/1005/6207058chart1.htm

(20) US Census Bureau, Current Population Survey, March 2001

(21) UNITED STATES WORRISOME POVERTY LEVELS FOR HISPANIC ELDERLY, 4/28/99, http://www.latnn.com/cgi-local/daily.pl?117-13

(22) California Quick Facts, US Census 2000,  http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/06000.html.

(23) Odds against inner-city firms: Barriers to capital hold back struggling entrepreneurs, Left Behind: A Sacramento Bee Special Report, Jan. 25, 2000, http://www.sacbee.com/static/archive/ne ... _main.html

(24 - 25) 25% of California children live below the poverty line, study finds, Associated Press, November 6, 1997

(26 - 27 )  Direct Link Between Immigration and Increasing Poverty. August 23, 2000, The Federation for American Immigration Reform, http://www.fairus.org/html/07434008.htm

(28)  The Cultural Roots of Poverty, The Wall Street Journal, July 13, 1999

(29) Racial Divide In Boom Time, Study Reports, San Francisco Chronicle, September 5, 2000

http://www.sfgate.com/cgibin/article.cg ... MN8843.DTL

(30) Number of Denver Latinos seeking aid over Christmas rises, The Mexico News, 12/27/2001, http://www.thenewsmexico.com/noticia.asp?id=15739

(31 - 32) Mexican Immigrants Change the Face of Denver, November 17, 1999, http://www.latnn.com/cgi-local/daily.pl?321-10

(33) Survey Portrays Hispanic Poverty In Alexandria, A Stark Picture Of Growing Group, The Washington Post, December 9, 1999,

http://search.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv ... 9-idx.html

(34 - 35) Phoenix, state top US in poor immigrants, The Arizona Republic, Sept. 3, 1999, http://www.azcentral.com/news/0903poor.shtml

(36 - 38) US Prosperity Eludes Millions of Newcomers, Washington Post, May 10 1997.

(39)  (Out of Control Immigration, National Anxiety Centre, 2001, http://www.anxietycenter.com/immigratio ... ontrol.htm

(40) Policy On Unskilled Entrants Flawed, Studies Say, Investors Business Daily, April 7, 1998

(41) Forbes Magazine, 1998, http://www.forbes.com/forbes/98/1005/6207058chart1.htm

(42 - 43 ) Good times barely touch state's poor, Jan. 23, 2000, Left Behind: A Sacramento Bee Special Report, http://www.sacbee.com/static/archive/ne ... _main.html

(44) Odds against inner-city firms: Barriers to capital hold back struggling entrepreneurs, Left Behind: A Sacramento Bee Special Report, Jan. 25, 2000, http://www.sacbee.com/static/archive/ne ... _main.html

(45 - 47) Education gap for Latinos a daunting problem in state, Left Behind: A Sacramento Bee Special Report, Jan. 25, 2000, http://www.sacbee.com/static/archive/ne ... side2.html

(48 – 49) The Cultural Roots of Poverty, The Wall Street Journal, July 13, 1999

(50 - 54) Median Income Drops Are Tied to Immigrants, The New York Times, December 22, 2001, http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/22/nyregion/22CENS.html

(55 - 56) 1999 Orange County Annual Survey, University of California, Irvine, http://data.lib.uci.edu/ocas/1999/report/99about.html

(57) Immigrants sue to force INS to waive citizenship fees, Miami Daily Business Review, Dec. 30, 1999

(58)  Racial Divide In Boom Time, Study Reports, San Francisco Chronicle, September 5, 2000

http://www.sfgate.com/cgibin/article.cg ... MN8843.DTL

(59) Study shows 100 farm jobs create 139 rural poor, Desert News, 08/04/1998, http://www.desnews.com/biz/x20jy9dg.htm

(60 - 61) Odds against inner-city firms: Barriers to capital hold back struggling entrepreneurs, Left Behind: A Sacramento Bee Special Report, Jan. 25, 2000, http://www.sacbee.com/static/archive/ne ... _main.html

(62 - 63) Policy On Unskilled Entrants Flawed, Studies Say, Investors Business Daily, April 7, 1998

(64 - 65)  Racial Divide In Boom Time, Study Reports, San Francisco Chronicle, September 5, 2000

http://www.sfgate.com/cgibin/article.cg ... MN8843.DTL

(66 - 67) Immigration, Coral Ridge Ministries, 1997, http://www.leaderu.com/issues/fabric/chap12.html

(68 - 69)  Economic costs of legal and illegal immigration, Colorado Alliance for Immigration Reform, http://www.fairus.org/html/04148711.htm

(70) Reuters, Florida to deport criminal illegal immigrants, 1994, http://burn.ucsd.edu/archives/riot-l/1994.Oct/0224.html

(71 - 75) Immigration, Coral Ridge Ministries, 1997, http://www.leaderu.com/issues/fabric/chap12.html

(76) Life better for the poor in Denver, study shows, Denver Rocky Mountain News, November 16, 1999.

(77) Poverty Amid Prosperity: Immigration and the Changing Face of Rural California. Washington, DC. Urban Institute Press, http://www.urban.org.

(78 - 81) Central Valley mired in grinding poverty, Jan. 24, 2000, Left Behind: A Sacramento Bee Special Report, http://www.sacbee.com/static/archive/ne ... _main.html

(82) Odds against inner-city firms: Barriers to capital hold back struggling entrepreneurs, Left Behind: A Sacramento Bee Special Report, Jan. 25, 2000, http://www.sacbee.com/static/archive/ne ... _main.html

(83 - 84) Economic costs of legal and illegal immigration, Colorado Alliance for Immigration Reform, http://www.fairus.org/html/04148711.htm

(85) Out of Control Immigration, National Anxiety Centre, 2001, http://www.anxietycenter.com/immigratio ... ontrol.htm

(86) Immigrants and Welfare, Research Perspectives on Migration, Vol. 1, No. 1, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace -- International Migration Policy Project, http://www.immigration-usa.com/immigran ... lfare.html

(87)  (State's immigrants leading in welfare use, survey says, San Jose Mercury News, June 30, 1999, http://www.sjmercury.com/premium/local/ ... fare30.htm

(88) 25% of California children live below the poverty line, study finds, Associated Press, Nov.6, 1997

(89) Survey Portrays Hispanic Poverty In Alexandria, A Stark Picture Of Growing Group, The Washington Post, December 9, 1999, http://search.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv ... 9-idx.html

(90) Phoenix, state top US in poor immigrants, The Arizona Republic, Sept. 3, 1999, http://www.azcentral.com/news/0903poor.shtml

(91) 900,000 Arizonans now live in poverty, state report says, Arizona Daily Star, 3 November 1999, http://www.azstarnet.com/public/dnews/1103R6.html

(92) Out of Control Immigration, National Anxiety Centre, 2001, http://www.anxietycenter.com/immigratio ... ontrol.htm

(93 - 94) Economic costs of legal and illegal immigration, Colorado Alliance for Immigration Reform, http://www.fairus.org/html/04148711.htm

(95) State's immigrants leading in welfare use, survey says, San Jose Mercury News, June 30, 1999, http://www.sjmercury.com/premium/local/ ... fare30.htm

(96) Economic costs of legal and illegal immigration, Colorado Alliance for Immigration Reform, http://www.fairus.org/html/04148711.htm

(97) Costs, Center for Immigration Studies, http://www.cis.org/topics/costs.html

(98) Poverty Amid Prosperity: Immigration and the Changing Face of Rural California. Washington, DC. Urban Institute Press, http://www.urban.org

(99 - 100) Immigrants and Welfare, Research Perspectives on Migration, Vol. 1, No. 1, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace -- International Migration Policy Project, http://www.immigration-usa.com/immigran ... lfare.html

(101 - 102) Immigration, Coral Ridge Ministries, 1997, http://www.leaderu.com/issues/fabric/chap12.html.

(103) Out of Control Immigration, National Anxiety Centre, 2001, http://www.anxietycenter.com/immigratio ... ontrol.htm

(104) Economic costs of legal and illegal immigration, Colorado Alliance for Immigration Reform, http://www.fairus.org/html/04148711.htm

(105) Reuters, Florida to deport criminal illegal immigrants, 1994, http://burn.ucsd.edu/archives/riot-l/1994.Oct/0224.html

(106 - 107) Poverty Amid Prosperity: Immigration and the Changing Face of Rural California. Washington, DC. Urban Institute Press, http://www.urban.org

(108) Costs, Center for Immigration Studies, http://www.cis.org/topics/costs.html

(109) Immigration, Coral Ridge Ministries, 1997, http://www.leaderu.com/issues/fabric/chap12.html

(110) US Census Bureau, Current Population Survey, March 2001.

(111 - 112) State's immigrants leading in welfare use, survey says, San Jose Mercury News, June 30, 1999, http://www.sjmercury.com/premium/local/ ... fare30.htm

(113 - 114) Asian Americans: Arthur Hu's Index of Diversity, http://www.arthurhu.com/index/apoverty.htm

First of all, I think the cost to erect the wall is too much. I mean, why spend the money when it may be obsolete in 50 years or less? Mark my word, right now the debate is going on because US has been and is the leading economical power in the world, as well as military power. However, today's war is fought in economical sense, not military sense.

In next 30 to 50 years, the economical power will shift to else where. Then, people will less likely to come to US for jobs, they will go somewhere else. It's already happening. Look at EU. Once Turkey joins EU, the total population of EU will exceed 400 million, 33% larger than the US. Look at the dollar versus Euro. One time, 1 Euro was about 70 cents. Now it's more like $1.30. Europe will continue to gain economical power and soon it may pass the US in that area.

Let's not even talk about China and India. Chinese economy has been growing at double digit for the last several years and it's expected to continue. Same with India. US economy has been at single digit growth forever. Between China and India, there are over 4 billion people. Once their economy picks up, they will be the largest consumer of the goods and most of the world will focus their efforts there. I predict that in next 30 years, both the Europe and Asian region will pass the US in economic power.

Then this debate will have less meaning. We will be talking about illegal aliens in those areas, coming from the US. I know it's a bold statement but some of that is happening already. The so called reverse brain drain is happening, those Chinese scholars who came here to study is going back, rather than staying, reversing the trend of last 10 years. More and more business people are moving to China to take advantage of this (read this week's Businessweek about an article about this).

It's all about dollars, or Euro or Yuan or Rupee.....

* Denver's five poorest neighborhoods are populated mostly by Hispanics that only speak Spanish, particularly in the northern part of the city. (31)  In these neighborhoods, 80% of the children receive food coupons, and are responsible for 37% of the city's crime rate. (32)

Eben, for someone who is asking for statistics you seem very eager to brush these aside. Did you even bother to check their page about where their data is derived? http://immigrationcounters.com/datasource.html. Other people have quoted things other things from state pages such as drivers license info, etc but you are a naysayer of apparent fact. Do you really want facts and statistics or are you just content to stick with your assumptions. You have mentioned that everything you have read was positive regarding the impact of the illegal immigration. Please share with us some of your statistics and facts regarding this aspect, because (and this is in all honestly) if they objectively make us better off then I am all for it. However almost nothing I have seen indicates this is a positive thing except for perhaps cheaper produce, and housing - but we all know there all costs for every option.

Also, in addition to Kelly's youtube video I posted the enormous 'Dark Side of Immigration' link http://www.usillegalaliens.com/ . It is full of facts and figures / discussion regarding the problems the illegal invasion represents, but you and other proponents supporting illegal immigration and against a fence so far have not addressed any of the items listed. Any of you bring what you have to the table if it is positive / pro illegal alien and pro fence.

From the source above "Congressman Steve King (R-IA), has stated that on average 13 Americans are killed each day by drunk driving illegal aliens and on average 14 Americans are murdered everyday by a non-citizen. Almost 10,000 Americans each year. " This sounds like a fact. These types of things and all the issues / mega trends I brought up are all economic or other problems which have nothing to do with personal, racial prejudice.

In my opinion if one legal American dies because an illegal kills them that is too many. Tell me why that is wrong. Granted it is a lot more than 1, and there are a lot more other issues and problems as I have already stated, but no one has addressed. So I repeat, in answer to your questions all of these things, and all the things others have brought up are not racial prejudice.

How many legal US citizens do you believe is the right amount to die or be displaced?

Since this is an off topic I will keep it brief. I never was a fan of supply side economics, or so called Reagonomics. While there is a lot of debate on this but consensus is that supply side economics does not work. Just look at the prime rate increase just trying to control it.

I disgree about the 2000 recession being rooted in pre-Bush. There are many indications of this, which I won't go in to. Clinton had it right. Let's just leave it that.

As for the blaming Oil for the recession, I would also have to disagree. Look at today. Our gas price is much higher, even inflation adjusted, then it was then but we don't have a run away prime rate or slowed down economy like we did then. I don't believe that the oil price alone was the reason for the economical downfall.

Here is way I look at it. There has to be a reason why you would disapprove of illegal aliens. It has to be either economical, which I believe is the reason, at least I hope, or it has to be personal hate, i.e. prejudice.

I would hate to think that people oppose the illegal aliens because they are racist, I mean everyone here is claiming they are not racist so it has to be economical, right? If it's economical then show me the numbers. That's all I am saying.

My grandfather on male side was born in Mexico Missouri in 1865.... My other grandfather was was settling co about the turn of the century He was from Iowa. My ancestors  (Scots by the way) had already forged this nation by that time.

So are you disagreeing, or agreeing that the solution should consider compromise considering the aforementioned "Animal Kingdom" example could be used to justify and vindicate a super-power nation invading all smaller nations justifying this as "Man is territorial", and subjecting this to Darwinian concept, Given such a system, MANY are doomed, and have few rights.  Civil man is not barbaric.  

We are a system that STILL weighs heavily on the older judeo/Christian values, why ?  Because religious or not, the Golden Rule, and the Ten Commandments make a LOT of sense ! and since people have the capacity for reason, don't we pride ourselves as a "nation with values ?"  As a result, hopefully our nation, and our nations people can live in an element of "freedom and safety" and are protected from barbaric behaviour, anacharachal situations, and tyrants.  To use "animal behaviour" in it's basal sense here isn't appropriate, because it serves as a means to vindicate polarized thought.  All or None is usually quite easy, but it shows little regard for terms such as system of jurisprudence,  Constitutional law, ethical constructs etc, and essentially the foundation of what our current system is based on.

The answer is NOT all or none,  there must be balance.  This is the crux of the difficulty.   IOW,  You say "At some point we must forget the past",  my question to you than is "At what point" ?   "According to WHO'S subjective values" ?  This is a VERY touchy issue that can't be tossed aside.

While some take a more pragmatic perspective one can't preclude ethical aspects.



According to you perhaps.  Should this be "moot" ?  Or given consideration ?
I believe it MUST be given consideration or else can we pride ourselves in being a moral people. Is what Hitler did years ago "moot" ?  Should it ever be forgotten ? After-all, the past IS indicative of future behaviour much of the time.   The key here is BALANCE, and that's why this gets so difficult.

I'd not like seeing such an example used if I establish a business, and in 20 years from now the Mob makes me an offer I can't refuse (sure this happens) and the unanimous thought becomes ~



Is there an element of fact that this actually happens in our throw-away society ?  OF course there is. Are all actually created equal,  I certainly don't think so, we live in a country where so much of what we dislike is "lack of certain values"  Do you like that ?   Should it be this way ?  Of course there will always be an element of "cracks in the floorboards" so-to-speak. We are a culture that goes to church to "Love they neighbor", and than a day later families are torn apart because "Business is business". Again, most values are subjective, but ALL people bleed when cut.

We can't overlook certain values, we shouldn't IMHO not consider "right" from "wrong"  because whether or not such behaviour at the time had a practical purpose or not IMHO might be what's "moot". Do you wish to live in a nation ruled by example, or hypocracy ?  We can prioritize, and assess and weigh various factors considering ALL angles, if this complicates the issue sobeit because fair is fair !, and personally, I opt to see fair whenever possible.  The decision pending outcome still will upset many, but we should strive to be FAIR to all that deserve fair treatment !  JMHO  We are a civil people (whether viewing current events makes us appear this way or not is another topic).

(,  you guys should see the @$$ on that girl that just walked by...brb)

.

The real question is how long does one President have to be in office to accept responsibility for things that have gone wrong?  2 months? 6 months? a year? 2?  It is a valid question, I for one thing that the moment he enters office and makes an act of Presidential powers that he has accepted responsibility for the good and the bad thereafter.

However I can understand people disagreeing with that, so how about we put it at the half year mark? Six months after inauguration the current President is directly responsible for what happens after that.

Just a note, Dubya was inaugurated on Jan. 20th 2001.... Almost a full 8 months later Sept. 11th took place.  It's a personal question for everyone, was 8 months long enough for him to be responsible, should 8 months have been long enough to prevent it?  All very good questions and I'm sure you guys know my stance on it.

I'm just saying that you have to have reasonable limits. You can look at anything and everything you want, but it may just cloud the issue. Personally I don't think that just because the US was a country built on native indian land is a reason to wonder if we should be able to secure our border. If the Indians had secured their border then we wouldn't have to address any of this - would we?  LMAO

It almost sounds like you are implying that the US doesn't have the right to be a soverein nation or secure it's borders. Why would we not have that right? And talking about history, why did the original founding fathers provide this right? I assume in the Constitution and elsewhere provision was made for this. Why would they do this and did they have a debate about why the nation should be protected?

What if the US just opened it's borders and got rid of all of it's immigration laws and just said, ok - anybody and everybody pop on in? Would we be a sovereign nation then, or even a nation anymore? How long would that last. How well could we grow economically with the chaos such a situation caused. How do you have planned growth for things like education, and social services, when you don't even know how many people you are providing for?

The Berlin wall was only a symbol of the cold war Churchill's iron curtain speech encouraged Truman' doctrine and Marshall plan is argued by historians the main catalyst of the cold war. It took many presidents and efforts by Americans to win the cold war including winning the nuclear arms race. The president and my commander-in-chief who I will love forever (now call me a liberal hater) John F Kennedy played probably the most part in the victory.


I saw the wall first hand in '64 and wept..

Why was it torn down? The will of the east germans

Why the Berlin Wall was taken down?

At 06.53 pm on November 9, 1989 a member of the new East German government was asked at a press conference when the new East German travel law comes into force.
He answered: "Well, as far as I can see, ... straightaway, immediately."
Thousands of East Berliners  went to the border crossings. At Bornholmer Strasse the people demanded to open the border and at 10.30 pm the border was opened there.
That moment meant the end of the Berlin Wall.
Soon other border crossing points opened the gates to the West
In that night the deadly border was opened by East Germans peacefully.

And we all wept!!!!

Eben if I havnt made myself clear about my beliefs by now then you havnt been reading my posts. Are any of these links about legal immigration?

You refuse to accept the experience of someone whom has lived this for 60 years You dispute any link I post You insult my ancestors. I really dont know what your motives are. But if I wanted to live in mexico Id move there.

Again real life experience and getting back to the wall issue I will reiterate a previous post.




And that is what I think about walls. Now dispute those facts.

This is quite confusing as phrased.  There are people that have family in the lands they leave to come here.  Many of these other lands have strong family values. Why must things be ALL or NONE ? I agree it's important to be a contributing member of ones current culture, but there's a lot about current value systems seen in this culture that just plain suck too !  Such as a decline in family and spiritual values. It's not hypocracy, to state all the hypocracy one can also see that exists here.

Beware of metaphors soon to follow
 
Again, take care of your homes, but be aware of what's broken, and shouldn't be shown off prior to repair.  While I work and pay into the system, and the positives may outweigh the negatives, there's PLENTY I'm ashamed of too, and the negatives are getting VERY ugly.  People can finger point and say "they" this,  and "they" that, but there's plenty here that's been breaking for a long time, that might not've become so problematic assuming we focused more on "this is OUR problem that WE must fix.  It exists whether they are here or not". Again,  Most of our ancestors were "Them", many that were "illegals".  What bothers me is what appears to be this "Holier than thou" attitude. Whether people wish for it to show,  it often shows. Quite a few posts whether people are aware of it or not exude a "We are better than them" attitude. Since I have a mom who was active with the UN Hospitality committees from the time I was very young, I've gotten to meet MANY of "them".  And many posting here are just totally off base.  "They" often have much stronger value systems, and ethical constructs than we have. Many of us EVEN we "baby-boomers" grew up in a "Me, Me, Me" world with throw-away values.  Throwing away our elder, sickly, not as :good looking:, not as wealthy, cutting relatives throats for the "dollar", etc.
Let's not be totally foolish.  There's plenty wrong here too ! So all this "They" and "We" although a perceived issue is secondary to fixing what needs fixing "Here", and is being exploited by many of US.  As they say..
"before you cuse me,  take a look at yourself".

Analogy:
We can point fingers at what we may deem the lousy suspension system in certain cars,  but it's foolish to do-so at the expense of refusing to see the many potholes in our roads that were the cause, and are breaking down our own cars.

So, for those of us that came from there, or those with loved ones still there... No need to ever forget the mothership !  :no:

Fact is,  some could stand to learn a thing or two from "them". It often takes a very strong person to come to the United States, REGARDLESS of how they get here.  I agree like so much else here,  we need to take a more careful look at aspects of our current immigration policy given current times, of course, we've been threatened many times and we haven't a clue how those promising to destroy us are going to enter this country, but to assume from "there" turning a blind eye to the fact that they might already be here, entering from Canada, etc given what we've learned, is foolish ! We just need to be cautious in general.  The United States now has plenty of its own problems that must be looked at and re-evaluated, so while there are plenty of reasons given what is the case today to look at all aspects, too often we don't look wisely.  I think we should point fingers where pointing them can productively do some good.  At *our* problems before more die especially assuming many are dying because we turn a blind eye to what IS and is not broken here at home, if current aspects of immigration policy become problematic, we should look at such problems, and not our neighboring countries people that wish to come here.  There are terrorists that will come here via Canadian border too. There are terrorists that were born and raised on US soil that hate "Americans". There are too many here at home with their heads in the sand that look at many of our current problems as external,  without regard for possible cause, and error on the part of our own people while our problems worsen, because we only see symptoms of a serious problem that's not being focused on right here at home.  What can we do to take care of US assuming we are in a time of crises, What are the real problems ? and what are possible remedies ?   Similarly,  not all that hate our nation,  dislike it for unfounded reasons.  Some believe we SHOULD be fixing what's wrong here, and keeping our biased noses out've their political systems.  We spend so much time as  Americans focusing on "Their system", "Their wrongs"  "They are bad",  and "They should be more like us", and look at us ?  Despite MANY warnings we didn't believe a 9-11 could happen to "us". We didn't safeguard our own cockpits.
Sure there's good here, but there's downright foolish too !  Own up to what is OUR problem, and stop looking at "Mexicans" and "Arabic people", and "Others" as the cause of our nations problems, reason being,  it's foolish to be yelling that the house across the street doesn't have fire protection when there's smoke rising from your own roof that is clearly visible. I don't believe ALL we do is "the right thing".

I thought we were discussing illegal immigrants on this thread. Am I wrong? If you are not posting something related to illegal immigration, then you are not contributing to this discussion.

Karyoker, you keep linking these articles which has very little to do with illegal aliens. What this shows me is that you are against all immigration. You just don't anyone "foreigners" coming to this country. Do I have that right?