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oneofakind864
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 Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:26 pm |
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dayum....kELLY....YOU'RE good!! Rah Rah Rah....great article! I'm gonna go make some popcorn and watch you and Kappy go at it!
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Steven Kaplan
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Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:30 pm |
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Quote: watch you and Kappy go at it!
 I'm not "going at it". This is too difficult a topic for me to have answers for.
As I said in the beginning I'm trying to learn. I don't have facts and figures, but I do know these topics are very very involved.
Is there an article Kelly posted ? because if so, it's not showing up on my system yet.
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karyoker
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Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:37 pm |
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Quote: Is there a means of making businesses that need help they can't find elsewhere assume more responsibility for the number of individuals they would bring into this country, and assume the costs of training and establishing such individuals into this country.. Problem here, is I see a strong ACLU and humanitarian issue that will cite a term known as "Slavery", meaning I see quite a potential for "abuse" aspects and human rights violations
At one time most of the farmer labor was being met by legal green carders. Then the do-gooders had to get invloved OH NO!!! You cant make them live in tents or temp houses like that. They need permanent houses with full facilities. So a farmer had to have houses for a work force of at the most 3 months out of the year.
Illegals dont apply to the above post
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Steven Kaplan
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Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:46 pm |
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Ah ! OK, You mean Ollie's article.
OK, I rebooted and need to read.
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Kellyoke
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Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:25 pm |
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Steven Kaplan
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Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:32 pm |
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Right Kelly. That I watched, and I don't believe THAT aspect has been addressed yet in here.
(yeah oneofakind, although Karyoker and Kellyoke have similar names, they are different individuals)
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planet_bill
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Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:44 pm |
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Steven Kaplan @ Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:25 pm wrote: Here's another idea (and I've not given this much thought so don't know)
Is there a means of making businesses that need help they can't find elsewhere assume more responsibility for the number of individuals they would bring into this country, and assume the costs of training and establishing such individuals into this country.. Problem here, is I see a strong ACLU and humanitarian issue that will cite a term known as "Slavery", meaning I see quite a potential for "abuse" aspects and human rights violations
Bush was proposing a similar 'guest worker' program. It was probably part of the Kennedy/McCain legislation that got defeated.
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karyoker
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Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:47 pm |
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From one who is experiencing this subject daily, one aspect that I have never heard discussed by the media or anywhere else. One anchor baby one SSN Another anchor baby another SSN..
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eben
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Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:53 pm |
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oneofakind864 @ Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:33 am wrote: hey eben...those numbers in karyokers post are pretty darn alarming.
 , ok he showed a web page of some organization that is against the immigration and called it a fact? I am sorry. That doesn't work for me as a number. Every number I have quoted so far came directly from the state's own web site, not some organization that is biased and probably made up those numbers anyways. It's like asking president Bush to give us an update on what's going on on war in Iraq. All thumbs up I bet.
What I am talking about is unbiased numbers. I hope to god that a state, such as Oregon, published numbers are more accurate then some biased site's number.
As for the second article, what's the point of this? Of course there are increased number of minorities in the country. First of all, most of them are legal. That's not what we are talking about. Let's take one example, schools. The enrollment for graduate and post graduate program for US colleges have dropped. They have dropped so low, Universities are looking at overseas for candidates, mostly from Asia. We are talking about 180,000 or so student per year. The number of those students coming to US to study increased by 10% from 2002 to 2003. In science, where this number is more critical, over 40% of all PhD students enrolled are from overseas. This is not because they are coming here and displacing the US students. US students chose not to attend the higher education institute and these schools have to fill the numbers so they can get the tuition.
The HB-1 visa is issued for people who qualifies for positions where no other US people are qualified to fill. They bring in over 65,000 per year on this visa.
All these people are legally entering the country at our government's invitation. Yes, the percentage of foreign born US residents are increasing, NOT because of illegal aliens, which is what we are talking about. _________________
Seize the day and SING!!!
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planet_bill
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Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:54 pm |
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Kellyoke @ Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:59 pm wrote: Steven Kaplan @ Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:55 pm wrote: I still believe this is a more complex problem. Who will fill these job positions ? There may need to be a restructuring of are whole welfare system, and perhaps even our prison systems. Some incentive for united states residents to take certain jobs they wouldn't otherwise take. Certain entitlement and supplemental programs as currently standing really discourage citizens from leaving their benefit packages to take such jobs even assuming they pay minimum wage. Still, WHO will fill these job positions ? WHO will fill these jobs? How about making it mandatory that when you are on welfare that you can't just sit on your "hands." Make the people who are on welfare take some of those jobs. Kelly Well, the other thing that almost everyone overlooks is the economic effects or illegal or slave labor. Such a system artificially makes wages low for those workers, and those wishing to take them. When free market / capitalistic principles are removed the overall system is affected. Or more simply, the wages are below the level that a legal US resident would want them, or could afford to take them as a job. With illegal labor gone the business owners would be forced to raise the price they pay their laborers and then legal US people would want and would take the jobs as they did in the past. This would be the same in other industries too such as home construction. The costs would likely not be absorbed by the businesses so much as they would be passed on to the consumer purchasing the product. Yes, that would make what we pay for berries, and vegetables higher, but I've heard the statistics showing that is only a miniscule part of the total cost of these items. So, in reality price wouldn't go up much. Probably the cost of homes would go up, but in time the economy and consumers would adjust and work as usual. The economic problems would be the pay back for the illegal system which had been running for years - likely similar to the way there were economic problems for those in the south when slavery was abolished.
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planet_bill
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Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:58 pm |
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Kellyoke @ Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:25 pm wrote:
Yeah that youtube video is pretty impressive. I saw that a month or so ago. I'm not sure of the source though.
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eben
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Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:58 pm |
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knightshow @ Thu Aug 09, 2007 6:45 am wrote: eben @ Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:43 pm wrote: About the point of illegals getting license in Oregon, again this may be few isolated incidences, not that illegal person gets a license and benefits. Of course there will always be few who will break the law and obtain papers illegally. Does that make it ok to lump everyone in to the category and say they are all doing it?
All I can say it looking at the law of Oregon, and California has similar laws, it would be near impossible for me to get a drivers license under another name. Why did I bring that up? Because it's not someone who is legal or illegal that matters, what we are talking about is how to obtain those documents so they can get benefits.
I tell you what, if it's that easy so every illegal can do it and get benefits, I would ask you to go get a drivers license under a different name yourself and show us the proof. Then go apply for a social services in your state and send a copy of the foodstamp you received. If you can do it, I would believe that it's that easy to do and may change my mind. It's gotta be easy, right? <- sarcasm, sorry. Eben, you're not talking with FACTS. It's state POLICY to give the illegal's drivers licenses! I gave this link once before. Obviously you didn't read it. http://www.oregoncatalyst.com/index.php ... liens.htmlQuote: Here's the article in full... Oregon Driver Licenses and Illegal Aliens
by Jim Ludwick Wednesday, January 3. 2007
(Article by Jim Ludwick of Oregonians for Immigration Reform)
Oregon is the only state on the West Coast that openly acknowledges that it issues driver licenses to illegal aliens. In addition, Oregon is one of only five states that do not verify the Social Security numbers of driver license applicants. The result is that Oregon has become a magnet for ID fraud, the methamphetamine trade and illegal immigration. In addition it has put a terrible burden on our public schools, the Oregon Health Plan and the criminal justice system.
The 2007 Oregon Legislature will address the issue but only because they are forced to do so. In 2005 Congress passed the REAL ID Act. This act requires all states to verify that driver license applicants are either U.S. citizens or legal residents. If a state does not comply with the act by May 2008, that states driver licenses will no longer be valid as proof of identification when boarding planes, entering a federal building or in any other dealings with the federal government. In essence, citizens from non-complying states will need a passport or other similar ID’s when traveling outside their state.
Unfortunately there is a loophole in the REAL ID Act. The loophole allows states to set up a two-tiered system. A high standard for American citizens to obtain a driver license and a low standard for illegal aliens to receive a "driving privilege" license. The driving privilege card could not theoretically be used as an ID.
Fortunately only two states, Utah and Tennessee, have taken advantage of the loophole and one of them, Tennessee stopped doing so. Last year Tennessee discontinued the practice citing the fact that out-of-state applicants were using fake papers and bribes to get the cards. In fact crime syndicates were bringing people in from not only other states, but Central and South America as well.
Governor Kulongoski is on record in saying that he will introduce a driver license bill in the upcoming legislative session that will bring Oregon in compliance with the REAL ID Act. However when questioned about a driving privilege card for illegal aliens he did not respond with an answer. If Oregon were to pass a bill that contains the driving privilege card for illegal aliens, we would be only the second state that actively has such a provision and consequently become even a greater magnet for crime.
In August 2006, the Governor’s State –Issued ID Task Force released their report to Governor Kulongoski. http://www.oregon.gov/CJC/docs/IDTaskForceReport.pdf In the report it was stated that "Oregon does not require people to prove ‘legal presence’ as part of the eligibility process.” The report went on to say, “This has led to Oregon becoming a magnet for people here illegally who find it increasingly difficult to obtain a driver license in other states. This increases the risk that DMV will issue DL/ID cards to people who aren’t who they say they are, and that more ‘fraudsters’ will come to Oregon from out of state."
Congressman Steve King (R-IA), has stated that on average 13 Americans are killed each day by drunk driving illegal aliens and on average 14 Americans are murdered everyday by a non-citizen. Almost 10,000 Americans each year. The last thing we need is to lure more illegal aliens into Oregon. A driving privilege card for illegal aliens would do just that.
Jim Ludwick
Oregonians for Immigration Reform
PO Box 1438
McMinnville, OR 97128The problem is, the state is bending over backwards to these individuals. They want them here for the migrant farm work, because nobody else (virtually) wants to do the jobs. But it's backfiring on the politicians and the farmers that put exorbant pressure on the State Capitol to do this... because the illegals aren't staying on the farm. They're going after OTHER jobs that Americans want. And who can blame them? Again, this sounds to me like ramblings of someone who has an biased interest in the issue. Look at the name of the organization, Oregonians for Immigration Reform? Come on, I stated the facts from Oregon's state web page that posted the facts, not some biased web site. Give me an article from Wall Street Journal, NY Times, heck, I will even take it from Fox News, not from some organization I have never heard of with an agenda.
Again, let's talk numbers. The total number of illegal alien is less than 2.5% of the total state population. You believe that the state is catering only these people and ignore the rest of the residents of Oregon? In the nation where unemployment is just about 4%, you think 2.5% of the population is going to take over all the jobs? I am sorry, I just don't buy it. _________________
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eben
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Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:03 pm |
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Kellyoke @ Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:59 pm wrote: Steven Kaplan @ Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:55 pm wrote: I still believe this is a more complex problem. Who will fill these job positions ? There may need to be a restructuring of are whole welfare system, and perhaps even our prison systems. Some incentive for united states residents to take certain jobs they wouldn't otherwise take. Certain entitlement and supplemental programs as currently standing really discourage citizens from leaving their benefit packages to take such jobs even assuming they pay minimum wage. Still, WHO will fill these job positions ? WHO will fill these jobs? How about making it mandatory that when you are on welfare that you can't just sit on your "hands." Make the people who are on welfare take some of those jobs. Kelly You are kidding right? Haven't you heard of welfare reform that was passed in 1996? You can't sit on your hands and not do anything while receiving the benefits anymore. Do you honestly believe that 90% of these people are receiving the benefit because they TRULY can not find a job because illegal aliens stole their jobs? I don't buy it. While you are on welfare, you have to attend re-education programs to improve yourself so you can find another type of job. Do you know what the percentage of people who won't complete this program? _________________
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eben
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Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:06 pm |
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planet_bill @ Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:58 pm wrote: Kellyoke @ Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:25 pm wrote: Yeah that youtube video is pretty impressive. I saw that a month or so ago. I'm not sure of the source though. Exactly, I have no idea who that person is or where the stats came from. Anyone can make up stats. I only believe in stats that comes from reliable sources. _________________
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eben
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Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:09 pm |
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knightshow @ Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:25 pm wrote: it opened for me... you using I.E.?? Is your pc all updated? Java?
We can solve the immigration problem with one swipe of the sword folks...
merely make the employers HIRE legal residents. Al you have to do is penalyze the employers SERIOUS fines if they hire illegals.
Without work, or precious few jobs that will pay in cash only, the majority of the problem will dwindle.
Here is a big question for you. What if no legal people want the job? What do you do then?
You are talking about precious few jobs. Our unemployment rate is at about 4%, lowest in almost 100 years. Where are these precious jobs you are talking about? When I see employment boards online, they are filled with thousands of jobs not being filled. The companies are begging government to increase the HB-1 visas so they have enough people to fill the jobs. I would like to know where the unemployment is so high that we need to eliminate all illegal aliens and give the jobs to the legal residents. _________________
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eben
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Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:12 pm |
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oneofakind864 @ Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:26 pm wrote: dayum....kELLY....YOU'RE good!! Rah Rah Rah....great article! I'm gonna go make some popcorn and watch you and Kappy go at it!
Sorry for being so rude but if you don't have anything intelligent to add, can we at least keep down the posts so this page doesn't get so long? Thanks. _________________
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eben
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Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:14 pm |
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karyoker @ Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:47 pm wrote: From one who is experiencing this subject daily, one aspect that I have never heard discussed by the media or anywhere else. One anchor baby one SSN Another anchor baby another SSN..
Hmm, isn't that the foundation of our country based on our forefather's philosophy? It has always been that if you were born in the US, you have right to be the citizen of US. That's what made this nation strong and growing. So, what you are saying is that your ancestors came to this country and your privilege is handed to you, you don't want anyone else to enjoy the same privilege, is that right? Kind of selfish, isn't it? _________________
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eben
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Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:28 pm |
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planet_bill @ Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:54 pm wrote: Kellyoke @ Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:59 pm wrote: Steven Kaplan @ Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:55 pm wrote: I still believe this is a more complex problem. Who will fill these job positions ? There may need to be a restructuring of are whole welfare system, and perhaps even our prison systems. Some incentive for united states residents to take certain jobs they wouldn't otherwise take. Certain entitlement and supplemental programs as currently standing really discourage citizens from leaving their benefit packages to take such jobs even assuming they pay minimum wage. Still, WHO will fill these job positions ? WHO will fill these jobs? How about making it mandatory that when you are on welfare that you can't just sit on your "hands." Make the people who are on welfare take some of those jobs. Kelly Well, the other thing that almost everyone overlooks is the economic effects or illegal or slave labor. Such a system artificially makes wages low for those workers, and those wishing to take them. When free market / capitalistic principles are removed the overall system is affected. Or more simply, the wages are below the level that a legal US resident would want them, or could afford to take them as a job. With illegal labor gone the business owners would be forced to raise the price they pay their laborers and then legal US people would want and would take the jobs as they did in the past. This would be the same in other industries too such as home construction. The costs would likely not be absorbed by the businesses so much as they would be passed on to the consumer purchasing the product. Yes, that would make what we pay for berries, and vegetables higher, but I've heard the statistics showing that is only a miniscule part of the total cost of these items. So, in reality price wouldn't go up much. Probably the cost of homes would go up, but in time the economy and consumers would adjust and work as usual. The economic problems would be the pay back for the illegal system which had been running for years - likely similar to the way there were economic problems for those in the south when slavery was abolished. FYI, according to Logistic Management web site
"Labor costs account for more than 50 percent of a warehouse’s total operating costs. The recipe for a cost-effective operation is simple: Find ways to better manage labor costs and you’ll improve your bottom line."
According to LookSmart,
'Labor is by far the largest factor in food marketing costs, accounting for 46 percent of the total. "
Labor counts for significant percent of total cost of a product, whether they are food, automobile, etc.
As I stated many times before, forcing companies to use US legal resident labor will mean your cost for products WILL go up. That means, you will pay for the economical impact of this issue we are discussing. _________________
Seize the day and SING!!!
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karyoker
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Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:36 pm |
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Quote: Hmm, isn't that the foundation of our country based on our forefather's philosophy? It has always been that if you were born in the US, you have right to be the citizen of US. That's what made this nation strong and growing. So, what you are saying is that your ancestors came to this country and your privilege is handed to you, you don't want anyone else to enjoy the same privilege, is that right? Kind of selfish, isn't it?
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My ancestors did not sneak into this country and have babies for assistance or subsistence.
Along with my oath to defend the constitution the 14th amendment is included.
The 14th amendment was not written for this abuse It was actually written for the slaves and aided in their emancipation.
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NO. THIS is what I posted:
