Karaoke Forums

Jian,  My thoughts are "debate" among mature individuals if kept in perspective need not mean "fight".  I feel personally,  like all other threads if members start attacking each other, and don't choose to conduct themselves in a way that the mods consider a "civil" manner,  the individuals and thread should at that point be delt with accordingly.

If people here CAN pull this off,  I feel it can in fact serve to unite members despite political beliefs.   This is just my opinion on the matter,  I don't wish to voice it in a disrespectful manner because I have the utmost respect for mods and administration here.

While often nobody wins or looses,  like a game of chess people can stalemate and ponder conditions, and learn something.  I think the important thing to recall is ALL people have egos, but that's no excuse to not at some point realize they must be controlled.  Seems most thus-far have "self moderated".  

Wouldn't it be nice if this can by some means show that honesty can exist, and even carry over to Singers Forums  LOL

Just my thoughts.

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

didnt work!!!

_________________
Join The Karaokle Singers Social Network. Upload Your Music!!

_________________
Join The Karaokle Singers Social Network. Upload Your Music!!

It is because the topic is political that it often get out of hand.  I hope that every body is level headed.

_________________
I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

So, I won't put words in your mouth, but it seems for you, this is not about numbers or facts, but a personal issue. I can understand that. I can see why you would feel that way because you have been personally effected by it and I am not here to discount it. It's one thing where an individual is effected. It's a whole another thing to lump the entire group of people to one category and try to change the national policy just because it's effected one person.

My point is that if this debate is about national policy, which I believe it is since it's all about spending the money on a fence, we better take the entire nation in to account, rather than something based on few people's personal experience, hence my comment about show me the money.

As I stated before, either a economic issue or a personal issue. I am trying to look at it from a macro point of view of the entire nation, not few people's personal bias.

About the point of illegals getting license in Oregon, again this may be few isolated incidences, not that illegal person gets a license and benefits. Of course there will always be few who will break the law and obtain papers illegally. Does that make it ok to lump everyone in to the category and say they are all doing it?

All I can say it looking at the law of Oregon, and California has similar laws, it would be near impossible for me to get a drivers license under another name. Why did I bring that up? Because it's not someone who is legal or illegal that matters, what we are talking about is how to obtain those documents so they can get benefits.

I tell you what, if it's that easy so every illegal can do it and get benefits, I would ask you to go get a drivers license under a different name yourself and show us the proof. Then go apply for a social services in your state and send a copy of the foodstamp you received. If you can do it, I would believe that it's that easy to do and may change my mind. It's gotta be easy, right? <- sarcasm, sorry.

_________________

Seize the day and SING!!!

I agree with you eben on the numbers...but the point I was making was that I don't mind immigrants....it's the ILLEGAL ones I have a problem with. I also have a HUGE problem with people of any country that come here and want the rights of a US citizen but refuse to BE dutiful citizens. No one should be allowed to come to the US to live as a citizen and srtill refer to themselves as "mexican, russian, indian, iraqi, etc"....when my ancestors came here they learned the laws the customs and the language...they got jobs and paid taxes and as a result I am an "American" I'm not "Irish, Scottich, French or English" I'm just american. I and my family have no allegiance to any of the countries we left.

Another thing that burns me up is people who come here and refuse to learn the language. And it burns me up when I get hit on the freeway by some jerk that was given a driving test in "his" language but who can read english- so they cut across 5 lanes on the highway to make their exit. The language here is English...the road signs are in this language...why do they give driving tests in multiple languages??And what REALLY burned me up was it was an uninsured motorist so MY insurance premium went up!
so in a nutshell
1) Come In LEGALLY
2) learn the LANGUAGE
3) Get  JOb and Pay TAXES don't suck the system dry!
4) Become an "American" Citizen and follow the laws of the country including having car insurance!
5) FORGET loyalties to the country you left( be proud of you heritage- but remember it is you heritage- not your current mode of living)

There's a number for you... my premium jumped from 97/month to 220! And it wasn't even my fault. I know I'm not the only one this has happened to. I would almost rather die than go to the emergency room because it's full of people who have no health insurance and force the hospitals to give care so unless you seriously ARE dying..you are there for the entire day waiting to see a Dr...again htere is a number for you...my husbands company pays 10.000 a year for my and another 10,000 for his health insurance. That is INSANE! How can in individual not in corporate America afford this? The reason is all the uninsured people are being added to te costs of the people who do pay. It sucks!

_________________

This is quite confusing as phrased.  There are people that have family in the lands they leave to come here.  Many of these other lands have strong family values. Why must things be ALL or NONE ? I agree it's important to be a contributing member of ones current culture, but there's a lot about current value systems seen in this culture that just plain suck too !  Such as a decline in family and spiritual values. It's not hypocracy, to state all the hypocracy one can also see that exists here.

Beware of metaphors soon to follow
 
Again, take care of your homes, but be aware of what's broken, and shouldn't be shown off prior to repair.  While I work and pay into the system, and the positives may outweigh the negatives, there's PLENTY I'm ashamed of too, and the negatives are getting VERY ugly.  People can finger point and say "they" this,  and "they" that, but there's plenty here that's been breaking for a long time, that might not've become so problematic assuming we focused more on "this is OUR problem that WE must fix.  It exists whether they are here or not". Again,  Most of our ancestors were "Them", many that were "illegals".  What bothers me is what appears to be this "Holier than thou" attitude. Whether people wish for it to show,  it often shows. Quite a few posts whether people are aware of it or not exude a "We are better than them" attitude. Since I have a mom who was active with the UN Hospitality committees from the time I was very young, I've gotten to meet MANY of "them".  And many posting here are just totally off base.  "They" often have much stronger value systems, and ethical constructs than we have. Many of us EVEN we "baby-boomers" grew up in a "Me, Me, Me" world with throw-away values.  Throwing away our elder, sickly, not as :good looking:, not as wealthy, cutting relatives throats for the "dollar", etc.
Let's not be totally foolish.  There's plenty wrong here too ! So all this "They" and "We" although a perceived issue is secondary to fixing what needs fixing "Here", and is being exploited by many of US.  As they say..
"before you cuse me,  take a look at yourself".

Analogy:
We can point fingers at what we may deem the lousy suspension system in certain cars,  but it's foolish to do-so at the expense of refusing to see the many potholes in our roads that were the cause, and are breaking down our own cars.

So, for those of us that came from there, or those with loved ones still there... No need to ever forget the mothership !  :no:

Fact is,  some could stand to learn a thing or two from "them". It often takes a very strong person to come to the United States, REGARDLESS of how they get here.  I agree like so much else here,  we need to take a more careful look at aspects of our current immigration policy given current times, of course, we've been threatened many times and we haven't a clue how those promising to destroy us are going to enter this country, but to assume from "there" turning a blind eye to the fact that they might already be here, entering from Canada, etc given what we've learned, is foolish ! We just need to be cautious in general.  The United States now has plenty of its own problems that must be looked at and re-evaluated, so while there are plenty of reasons given what is the case today to look at all aspects, too often we don't look wisely.  I think we should point fingers where pointing them can productively do some good.  At *our* problems before more die especially assuming many are dying because we turn a blind eye to what IS and is not broken here at home, if current aspects of immigration policy become problematic, we should look at such problems, and not our neighboring countries people that wish to come here.  There are terrorists that will come here via Canadian border too. There are terrorists that were born and raised on US soil that hate "Americans". There are too many here at home with their heads in the sand that look at many of our current problems as external,  without regard for possible cause, and error on the part of our own people while our problems worsen, because we only see symptoms of a serious problem that's not being focused on right here at home.  What can we do to take care of US assuming we are in a time of crises, What are the real problems ? and what are possible remedies ?   Similarly,  not all that hate our nation,  dislike it for unfounded reasons.  Some believe we SHOULD be fixing what's wrong here, and keeping our biased noses out've their political systems.  We spend so much time as  Americans focusing on "Their system", "Their wrongs"  "They are bad",  and "They should be more like us", and look at us ?  Despite MANY warnings we didn't believe a 9-11 could happen to "us". We didn't safeguard our own cockpits.
Sure there's good here, but there's downright foolish too !  Own up to what is OUR problem, and stop looking at "Mexicans" and "Arabic people", and "Others" as the cause of our nations problems, reason being,  it's foolish to be yelling that the house across the street doesn't have fire protection when there's smoke rising from your own roof that is clearly visible. I don't believe ALL we do is "the right thing".

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Eben, you're not talking with FACTS.

It's state POLICY to give the illegal's drivers licenses! I gave this link once before. Obviously you didn't read it.

http://www.oregoncatalyst.com/index.php ... liens.html

The problem is, the state is bending over backwards to these individuals. They want them here for the migrant farm work, because nobody else (virtually) wants to do the jobs. But it's backfiring on the politicians and the farmers that put exorbant pressure on the State Capitol to do this... because the illegals aren't staying on the farm. They're going after OTHER jobs that Americans want. And who can blame them?

numbers

culture shock

_________________
Join The Karaokle Singers Social Network. Upload Your Music!!

hey eben...those numbers in karyokers post are pretty darn alarming.

_________________

The immigration counter isn't opening for me.  Did anyone address Kelly's movie ?

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

it opened for me... you using I.E.?? Is your pc all updated? Java?

We can solve the immigration problem with one swipe of the sword folks...

merely make the employers HIRE legal residents. Al you have to do is penalyze the employers SERIOUS fines if they hire illegals.

Without work, or precious few jobs that will pay in cash only, the majority of the problem will dwindle.

The problem is likely with my system Matt.  While those programs have been updated, I think I need to reboot.

I agree that if there's going to be a solution,  it's the business practices that must be addressed (again internal situation) because what's happening IMHO is those living abroad are getting mixed messages from this nation.

In brief:

"Sure,  it's going to be tough for you to get into the United States,  but once you are here you're wanted and needed by some".

So from the perspective of many looking in,  there's opportunity here
albeit an obstacle course to get here.

It appears recent opposition prevents the "Swipe of a Sword" approach.

That's met opposition in the past Matt.  Here's a recent example of what recently transpired in Scranton PA.  (ACLU opponents)
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... t=1&f=1003


Here're a few psst decade examples (source:  Washington Post
2007 Immigration Debate)
While most of the government's get-tough rhetoric has focused on people illegally crossing the border, others noted, about 40 percent of the nearly 12 million illegal immigrants living in the United States entered the country legally on visas and simply stayed. That means they probably can be caught only at work.

Major work-site crackdowns have run into trouble in the past. A spring 1998 sweep that targeted the Vidalia onion harvest in Georgia, and Operation Vanguard, a 1999 clampdown on meatpacking plants in Nebraska, Iowa and South Dakota, provide case studies of how the government fared when confronted by a coalition that included low-wage immigrant workers and the industries that hire them, analysts said.

The Georgia raids netted 4,034 illegal immigrants, prompting other unauthorized workers to stay home. As the $90 million onion crop sat in the field, farmers "started screaming to their local representatives," said Bart Szafnicki, INS assistant district director for investigations in Atlanta from 1991 to 2001.

Georgia's two senators and three of its House members, led by then-Sen. Paul Coverdell (R) and Rep. Jack Kingston (R), complained in a letter to Washington that the INS did not understand the needs of America's farmers. The raids stopped.

For Operation Vanguard, the INS used a more sophisticated tactic. It subpoenaed personnel records from Midwestern meatpacking plants and checked them against INS and Social Security databases of authorized workers, then interviewed suspect employees. Of 24,148 employees checked, 4,495, or 19 percent, had dubious documents at about 40 plants in Nebraska, western Iowa and South Dakota. Of those workers, 70 percent disappeared rather than be interviewed. Of 1,042 questioned, 34 were arrested and deported.

Nebraska's members of Congress at first called for tougher enforcement, recalled Mark Reed, then INS director of operations. But when the result shut down some plants, "all hell broke loose," he said.

Secretary of Agriculture Mike Johanns (R), who was governor at the time, appointed a task force to oppose the operation. Former governor Ben Nelson (D), now a U.S. senator, was hired as a lobbyist by meatpackers and ranchers. Sen. Chuck Hagel (R) pressured the Justice Department to stop.

Members of Congress at first hostile to immigrants embraced "all the same people who were so repugnant to them before," Reed said, "and they prevailed." Operation Vanguard -- which was designed to expand to four states in four months and nationwide the next year, eventually including the lodging, food and construction industries -- was killed.

Congress "came to recognize that these people . . . had become a very important part of their community, churches, schools, sports, barbecues, families -- and most importantly the economy," Reed said. "You've got to be careful what you ask for."

The mention of Operation Vanguard provokes strong reactions in Omaha, where people say a similar effort today would still cause trouble.

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

THERE you go ....Knightshow for PREZ!!!!!!!!


oh and Kappy go to www.immigrationcounters.com - thats where the link takes you

_________________

Is it backfiring on MANY of the farmers nationally though ?  It appears quite a few businesses in quite a few locations can cite that such workers are a necessity given a current situation where FEW will fill such job positions,  so how can THAT situation be rectified given current programs ?


I still believe this is a more complex problem.  Who will fill these job positions ?  There may need to be a restructuring of our whole welfare system, and perhaps even our prison systems.  Some incentive for united states residents to take certain jobs they wouldn't otherwise take, most would rather stay on state and government assistance than take most of the positions that will now be available.  Certain entitlement and supplemental programs as currently standing really discourage citizens from leaving their benefit packages to take such jobs even assuming they pay minimum wage.  Still,  WHO will fill many of these job positions in certain locations even assuming they pay the minimum wage  ?[/quote]

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

WHO will fill these jobs?  How about making it mandatory that when you are on welfare that you can't just sit on your "hands."  Make the people who are on welfare take some of those jobs.  

Kelly

Ok I am now the official cheerleader for this thread...Go Kelly GOOOO Rah Rah Rah!  :oh yeah:

_________________

I believe this is the type of situation that must be considered Kelly !!!
Could this feasibly work in certain rural areas where transportation to and from is an issue ?   Such as rural areas of Nebraska ?  Seems many would need to relocate too.    Which is why I was wondering about prison systems transporting people to and from certain jobs..

ADDED IN:

With the exception of being medically disabled,  why not make it compulsory for those receiving certain types of aid capable of working to "work" ?

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

harvest farm

They grow vegetables in season bake pies for sale raise animals take in donations (like good will) but distribute to the needy for free.  And they feel so blessed and proud to be there... The success rate for addicts and others is phenominal...

_________________
Join The Karaokle Singers Social Network. Upload Your Music!!

Here's another idea (and I've not given this much thought so don't know)

Is there a means of making businesses that need help they can't find elsewhere assume more responsibility for the number of individuals they would bring into this country, and assume the costs of training and establishing such individuals into this country..  Problem here, is I see a strong ACLU and humanitarian issue that will cite a term known as "Slavery", meaning I see quite a potential for "abuse" aspects and human rights violations

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".