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And I gotta say...

Ollie and Kappy... you're killing me.  LMAO How in the HECK did you get to talking about crop circles? Not THOSE kinds of aliens Ollie, for crise sake!!

I'm done here. Please don't address me anymore. (please) I don't want to start sounding like a big mouth biggot... and I'm really getting close;)

Peace everyone.  :wave:

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

Excuse me? I am twisting things around? I am sorry but I thought I was reading English at this forum.

See your quote:



Unless my English is not perfect, which I admit since I was an Engineering Major, that to me you were directing that statement directly at me and others who live in big cities. I apologize in advance if my English is so bad, I didn't understand that statement. (That's sarcasm, part of my sense of humor)



I am sorry, I can only respond to those replies that has my quote in it. I thought I was being polite and present only the facts that I know, rather than conjectures and innuendos. I tried to ask you for facts to support your conjectures and innuendos, you never responded to my request. I would love to see you quote me of things you are accusing me of.

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Seize the day and SING!!!

You refer to it as immigration yet everyone is discussing an invasion of illegal workers and those that tap into our resources. There is a vast difference This country does not have a great immigration problem other than the fact that maybe the quota should be set back at prior limits. Do not ask what or when watch the 9 minute video again.

They want to downplay the problem and using semantics pretend it is a an immigration problem but it is not. It is a plague that is sapping our resources It is degrading our economy not helping it. It is one of the reasons that the minimum wage has not been raised like they do in DC on a regular basis. The legal green carders are paid well The rest is slave labor pure and simple My nephew just came back from New Orleans (drywalled for several months) and the horror stories about illegals are sure not on the news. The convience stores and even walmart close at dark in some parishes.

They need to start applying the illegal entry laws that were passed before the problem became a giant of such proportions We walked across the Jaureez bridge just about every weekend for 2 1/2 years. I know how that border operates.It is run by money and paybacks. It is run by corrupt payoffs and tips.

A wall would not be cost effective (what government soulution is) nor would it stem the influx Mexico economic problems need to be solved. There is an international aura about 100 miles wide all along that border. Unless you have lived there and experienced it there is no describing it. At times it is neither USA or Mexico but a strange mixture of both. And has a life of it's own. In other words it will take both USA and a joint effort with Mexico to solve it. But as long as we are providing their poor with assistance it isnt going to happen.

Some radical laws put a heavy tax on monies sent back to Mexico...

Provide a list of companies like charmin talked about (John Deere?) that discriminate aginst whites and are using illegal labor.


???????

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Hmm, this coming from someone who is complaining that people are not speaking English when they come to this country, you admit to not writing in formal format and consider context? Isn't that what English all about? I am sorry, yes, if you don't use proper English, I sometimes have hard time understanding what the writer or speakers are trying to say.



I am sorry, I guess my English is not up to par. I didn't see much humor in your statements. Maybe I need to take some comedy class to understand some of those jokes (again, look up sarcasm).

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Seize the day and SING!!!

Almost forgot, I brought up the CA welfare reform of a few years ago:

http://www.caltax.org/member/digest/feb2001/feb01-6.htm

And another:

http://www.city-journal.org/html/12_1_dont_mess.html

which includes:



I'm tired of googling now... I have work to do... taxes to pay;)

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

No, no, no... didn't say anything about John Deere company itself, other than the fact that my son is a tractor nut. He learned to rebuild JD tractors. He loves them. What I was saying was that he can't get a job DRIVING a tractor, or working on them for farmers... those kinds of jobs are the ones "contracted out" around here.

Just had to clarify that...

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

Eben I speak spanish and have used it in mexico and spain I dont know what phrase of mine you got the idea from that I object to people speaking spanish If I did clobber english and infer that I did then it was my mistake.

If you continue to misconstrue my statements then I guess I cant express anything to you and will not respond to your nitpicking of small discrepencies and blowing them out of proportion.

I Live I love I laugh I cry. Sometimes when I write I show emotions I write from the heart.. I sing from the heart. It took many months in Italy and years to learn how to let it out and not let it eat me alive. Now you can take it any way you want Call it tantrums or whatever. I am tired of walking on eggs here and being careful not insult somebody.

Well so much for staying on topic...

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I am not defensive. I am just stating my person feelings and facts that I know behind this subject. I don't believe that I have been defensive at any time. I thought I was in an intelligent discussion about immigration. Can you please point out to me where I was being defensive? Maybe I can learn how to be less defensive in forums.



Ok, it's one page out of one paper and I can understand the fear you must feel. We, being the city folk, have gangs around here. The gangs are not all Mexicans, or Asians, or Italians or Russians. They come in all shapes and size. Currently, the most notorious gang in NY area are the Russians and from former Soviet bloc countries. They supplanted Italians as most notorious gang. Again, this is national crisis, not Canby crisis so I can understand that your concerns.



Ok, Oregon has total population of 3.7 million people. Of those you are having issues with 90,000 illegal immigrants? That's what, 2.4% of the total population? You are so concerned about 2.4% of the population taking over all the resources of the state? Even if those 2.4% of the people take up 5 times the resources of the average citizens in Oregonk that's less than 10% of total resources for the state. Somehow the statistics are way off. It states 25% of employees were illegal, from 2.4% of the total population? They need to check their math.

Also, check Oregon's Unemployment Insurance payment. It's paid $337 million in July of 2007. That's just the unemployment, let along the total budget, which is $11.7 Billion. Their crisis is over $12 million in benefits that is paid to illegal aliens?

This is majority problem you talked about? This is the most critical issue facing Oregon right now?

Continued

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Seize the day and SING!!!

So, basics on this is they want US citizenship to be required for drivers license? What about legal immigrants who needs drivers license? What about those on visas, such as student visa, that requires license?




Again, they get federal subsidy on this issue. The total, as you linked at the top, is less than $12 million out of $11.7 Billion of Oregon's budget.




I only Googled the Oregon state web site for stats, not some biased site for facts. What you are saying is that less 0.01% of the total state budget and less than 2% of the total population is the most critical issue for the citizens of Oregon to me sounds like you have wrong issue to focus on. I would say things like education should be your number one priority, again my personal opinion, not a fact that you should do it.



I know it's for Magz but I will butt in here for a sec. I am going to state my first statement in this forum. Without these guest workers, I am a firm believer that US economy will take a big hit. If you have a chance to see it, see an indie film called "A Day Without a Mexican", released in 2004. It's a comedy. I am not saying that's what's going to happen but something similar can be a distinct possibility.



Well, let's talk in about 30 years. It's a possibility that in 30 years, US will not be the top economical factor in the world. It could be China or India. Maybe Brazil. We don't know. America has been a strong economical factor since about 1850s but in the future, that could change. You may see a reverse immigration happening, which is already happening to China, and this issue will be a moot point.



First of all, minority based benefits are small compared to our overall budget and economy. You have to look at the big picture. What you are seeing are few thousand dollars compared to our ever growing trillions of dollars budget deficit.

Yes, many non residents can purchase building, etc. They are called foreign investments. You are focusing only a small part of these people but there many wealthy people around the world who purchase real estate and businesses without having to be a US resident. Many corporations buy other companies and properties without having to be a US company. So, what you are saying is that these same people who gets foodstamps, medical benefits can afford homes in Oregon? Man, I need to move there.




But it is relevant. If you are a permanent resident of the country, they are expecting
you to follow their customs and language, like you are expecting others who come to this country to do the same. If it's illegal to celebrate Christmas in a Muslim country, would you still celebrate? Same with 4th of July? So, you are so patriotic to America, you would do the same things these people are doing in this country, like "refusing" to learn a new language?

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Seize the day and SING!!!

You put this out for a reason. I read it that you suppored Ann from Greely.

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Seize the day and SING!!!

No Eben I was just trying to show some problems with towns that in a few short years integrate  a large percentage of a different culture.  Actually we have one of the best working relationships with each other This town has mexican families here for 3 or 4 generations. They still cling to the old family values which help tremendously Of course they are well represented in council and public service, Which helps tremendously. It takes elders on both sides with a good knowledge of others belief system and traditions
to form policies that will work..

I had a gig at a mexican Tejano club here . One night a little shaver about 6 years old walked up stuck out his hand and said how do you do sir? I am manwel I am here to sing !!! His hair was neatly combed vest and tie and his shoes were shined. I wanted to get on my knees and hug him. Instead I took his hand and said Good My name is ollie get some slips filled out..

The ice raid at the swift plant turned the community apart a little and the mayor (who is anglo) actually went to DC and put in a complaint.

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Yes, there are other races who are criminals and gangs. What we are discussing here are the illegal aliens from Mexico. Hell, there are many born and bred Americans who go around looting, stealing, murdering, and raping in gangs. Again, we are discussing illegal immigrants... most of whom come from Mexico. I'm sticking to the topic of the thread... building a wall around Mexico. (not Russia or Italy or Asia)



Uh-huh. As I said.. you can pull LOTS of websites up, all with differing facts. I pointed that out already. (and gave the links to back it up) That was the point Ben, who can say who's "evidence" is truth, when you're getting such different facts everywhere you look? Bottom line... illegal immigrants are a problem to the economy, no matter the exact numbers. 90,000 is a big number... no matter how you look at it.



Well, yes, it is the majority I'm pointing out. TWO illegals living here being supported by tax dollars they don't pay into are too many. Look at the millions spent, then add on the next state, and the next, and the next...
And nowhere in this thread did I state "This is Oregon's biggest issue at the moment". But, it sure is one of the big problems we have. Lol, as to the unemployment, if so many illegals weren't working those jobs, maybe so many citizens wouldn't be unemployed.

(cont)  :D

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

Regarding benefits those in poverty incomes are entitled to, I'm not certain I understand the breakdown.


Is SSI=Title 19=Welfare= "State" ?

Whereby  SSA= Federal and draws from a given Quarter of an individuals own
work history and SSD (such as title-2 disability requires SS number and recent work
history)  ?


Assuming Welfare is also known as "state", do terms of entitlement differ state to state ?  General assistance I THOUGHT (dunno) in my area is available to all that are residents of a given area and in a poverty bracket despite work history.  As to whether this does, or does not require a SS# and citizenship vs just being a local resident and being able to show total assets are below a set amount that enables a resident of a location to qualify, I don't recall.  I know in certain cases town SW will hand out Pseudo-SS#'s...  Yet I'm not clear on this. Nor am I saying this is "by the books" of course.   I'm just curious if the saying "I'm on State" (meaning welfare) differs from state to state in terms of qualification.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

As a more clear explanation of that tirade my dislikes in the first paragraph were more about forigen buyout . Then i guess I carried on to things that matter to me more than this threads topic if you look at the whole post I was trying to explain why we were having this problem. I know I tend to shorten phrases and slur meanings with cliches but I can see where someone might get the wrong impression Ill slow down or at least try...

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What about the folks who come here to visit? They don't get a US license either, they drive on the licenses from their own coutry. (granted maybe with some typeof endorsement, but they don't get a license to be here for 2 weeks visiting) People here from Mexico... surely they have a Mexico license they can drive on? ( i wouldn't know... ) But I can be sent to schooling in Chicago for 2 weeks, and I don't have to get a Chicago license while I'm there.



But why should our budget pay for non-citizens? You're just not making sense. That would be like me saying "Ben, you make a lot more money than I do, and I'm tired of not being wealthy, so would you mind giving me 20% of your income so that I may have more than I have now?".



I'm not saying those things. I pasted weblinks to what others are saying. What I'm saying is I don't WANT my tax dollars funding people who are here only to rape our economy and send the money to another country. I don't care if it's $5 per paycheck, I don't want it taken from me.



Ben, you're obviously not reading everything that is written. (granted, my posts have been too long of late...) I'd love to see the money taken out of our school system put back in, it's one of the budget cuts we've had. When you read stats that point out millions paid to harbor and care for (and even to deport) illegal immigrants, it stinks to realize that money COULD be in our schools system.



And I will politely decline a response on that one, cause I've already done that in a prior post. (too many dead horses here already)



I saw it, when it first came out. You're right... it was a comedy:)



Really!! Well, thanks for pointing that one out. Miss backland hick here hadn't ever heard of them there foreign investments before... Ben, if only I could get angry, but you're honestly just making me laugh:)



Yes, if you're immigration status is in question... Oregon is the place to be. I could afford a brand new home too if I lived with my 3 brothers, 4 sisters, mom, dad, gramma, grampa, and 4 cousins and we all pooled our money together.



No, you are questioning "what if's" for the sole purpose of continuing an argument. It doesn't apply to me, I'm not an immigrant, nor do I plan to ever be. I stated, if I WERE, I'd walk the walk and talk the talk. I did say.. if I were "visiting", no, I would not learn the language for a visit. You're twisting things. Again, I would never move to a foreign country and expect their tax dollars to support me and expect my "minority" status to entitle me to an easy road. Nor would I expect THEM to shoot off fireworks for the 4th of July, or put a cross on every roof for christmas. I guess if I ever moved to say, Baharain... I'd wear a veil over my face in 120 degree weather and bow to idols. (and most likely get stoned to death for flirting in a land where women can't speak to strange men)

This is round, what, 4? Of the same arguments over and over. Think up something new, I wont respond to the SAME old thing any more. I've pretty much addressed everything here... the subject is boring me to death.

~Ciao
(....speakin' Italian and gettin' away with it... )  :D

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

Nope, they get what's called an International License that gives you a short term right to drive in other countries. Actually, I had one of those when I was traveling around Europe. This is a temporary issued to people who visits. By law, at least in US and other countries around the world, you can not drive with a foreign license, as far as I know. So, what is the solution for those who are here for the long haul who needs to drive?



At least you live in a country where you pay minimum amount of taxes. Wait until you live in a socialist countries where you pay average of over 50% income tax. Then you may have some right to gripe. Again, everything is relative and I happen to support spending some money to those who are in the need. Personal opinion that differs from yours. Yes, it's a bit of liberal point of view but I do believe in social services in this country where it does do some good.



I believe that economical benefits we get from the people who are coming to work far outweighs few who abuses the system. Heck, I know of plenty of US citizens who are abusing the system. What about them? Again, differences of opinion. Let's leave it at that.



Again, I respectfully look at the web site your wonderful state runs. The amount Oregon mis-spends on education, etc. is way more than those $12 million lost on illegal aliens. Look at it. If you took that whole $12 million and spend it all on education, it may get your child additional pencil or two. It's peanuts compared to other reform that can be done.



So, that may be the case in Oregon, if and only if all those people who do not have a SSN can all get public assistance (which I doubt based on what I have found out), they may be able to afford to buy some shack somewhere. Here in CA, even with all those people, they can't afford to buy anything around here. As I said, difference in opinions based on geographical location.

Update: Here are some links to Oregon State Official Web sites.

Proof needed for drivers license: http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/DMV/driverid/idproofprim.shtml
Looking at those requirement, there is no way a illegal alien can get a hold of those documents legally. That means, they can not get a drivers license.

Proof needed for Food Stamp:
http://www.oregon.gov/DHS/assistance/foodstamps/foodstamps.shtml#eligibility
Again, SSN is required for the qualification, if you are getting the foodstamp.

Proof needed for TANF, Oregon assistance program for families:
http://www.dhs.state.or.us/policy/selfsufficiency/em_firstpage.htm
Again, SSN is needed for the application to be qualified. Exception is if you were admitted as a refugee or under political asylum. According to this, it says if you have a family of 10, you get about $1100, plus $110 for each addition. I don't know how cheap the houses are in Oregon, if you can eat, cloth and buy all the minimum necessary and still have enough money to pay mortgage with $1100, that's pretty amazing. I mean, if you just pay the mortgage of $1100 per month, without anything else, you can only buy a house worth about $200,000. I would find it hard to see how they can afford to live in luxury with that kind of subsidy they get.



But those are valid points in my opinion because it's your attitude towards these issues. You are being very egocentric in your point of view. You personally wouldn't do it but expect others to do it so it would please your own self esteem? I call that a bit hypocritical and it's very valid for the discussion. What I am trying to do is a very fact based discussion. However, you are basically talking from your own bias and emotions.[/url]

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Seize the day and SING!!!

Umm, these facts came from your own state's web site. As I said, I didn't go to just any web site, I went directly to the source. As a resident of the state, I would say visit your own state's web site. I would hope they would be stating facts, not fiction.



I think again, you are not stating the fact, just conjecture. You know for a fact that if you eliminate the illegal aliens then our unemployment, which stands at about 4%, is going to go down? You have facts to prove that? If you can provide any kind of study that suggests that, I may actually change my mind about this issue.

To me, the cost of trying to eliminate the illegal aliens is a lot more than benefit of these people working in this country.

Check out this article, referring to the Oregonian, newspaper from your state.

http://www.ekasbury.com/word/?p=432

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Seize the day and SING!!!

I've already responded to the things you're saying, so rather than me repeat and waste  space here... go read back over my first post, and my second, and my third... etc

You've given your opinion (and what facts you think support your opinion) and I've given mine. I stand by everything I said, you are not the first (nor the most knowledgeable) person I've spoken to on this matter... my views stay the same.

You act like someone who has a personal, private issue going on with this situation of illegal immigration. Whatever it is, I'm not part of it.



Ben, for the last time.. "wait until you live in..." I'm not GOING to live in another country. Hell, do you know something I don't? Because as far as I know, I'll live out the rest of my days in the good ol' USofA.



So, you're not trying to be disrespectful and argumentative? "my wonderful state".... so what do you have against Oregon now? Besides, of course, that it's my home state, Lol. I've spent quite a few years here, and quite a few years there... and the nice warm climate is ALL California has that appeals to me. So you putting down my state offends me not at all. You obviously have some kind of chip on your shoulder....
and, on second thought, I edited the rest of the sentence:)

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

Whatever your stand is, it's your opinion, I just think it's based on emotion not fact. That's all. I thought we were having a logical discussion about the issue. So far all I heard from you is what you feel, not facts. I thought all I did was present facts without my personal emotions involved.



That was a point given as a example, I never mentioned that you will live outside the US.



Hmm, I thought I was sincere and respectful when I called your wonderful state as it is. Where do you see in that sentence I was disrespectful? You got I have a chip on my shoulder from that sentence? If you look at some of my post, when I am sarcastic, I mentioned it, I was not being sarcastic. I think Oregon is wonderful.

Perhaps your emotion guided you to think beyond what I meant, to have you look at your own state's web site and look at the numbers, rather then what you think you feel when you are talking about this issue.

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Seize the day and SING!!!

Providing "illegals" with drivers licenses  :shock: - that is just madness. Excerpt: "The result is that Oregon has become a magnet for ID fraud, the methamphetamine trade and illegal immigration. In addition it has put a terrible burden on our public schools, the Oregon Health Plan and the criminal justice system."

Look the simplest common denominator here is the word "illegal". If people would interpret that word properly in the US then we would not have any of these problems. Call me old fashioned but I thought the law was there for a reason. Since when do we have the right to pick and choose which ones will actually follow and enforce? For a state to provide an illegal - the rights of a legal citizen is really a crime against the country and all it's proper citizens. It is in effect treason. What's funny is people are so screwed up that no one actually recognizes or understands there is anything wrong with the practice.  LMAO Trust me. You will reap what you sow. Charmin mentioned how things are becoming in Oregon. As I stated in an earlier post your country is changing and has changed already. Your country (our country for fellow US) is also being taken away as you used to know it. This is so similar to Nero fiddling while Rome burned it isn't funny anymore.  :wave:

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