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Ollie,  you state erroneous info,  and than when called on it you laugh it off.  I know,  you have two words for me..


That aside,  you are making we old farts look bad.  State credible info;  MAD magazine isn't a credible source for statistics !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Is there that much of a generation gap you dont understand what I'm saying?  I said local politicos and the senate and congress.. I am not bashing either one but offering observations

Do you think it's right to deny farmers their water so that big developers can build big projects and golf courses? And turn wheat fields into parking lots? And run mom and pop businesses into bankruptcy then foreclose on their home? Lets go hit the streets I will show you.  I deal with real life not what is broadcast printed orpromulgated by special interests.  Statistics and polls are nothing but lies and colored by special interests.

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You deal with (at least voice) your observations based upon *your* conditioned values based upon a time that is no longer !   Real life is what's happening despite your opinion and values.   That is what we must deal with which is exactly why these discussions are so difficult.

There are two often opposing conditions

1)  Individual Opinions
2)  Current facts

To have and offer opinion that precludes current reality is tantamount to voicing a fantasy,  but there's little merit.  For this very reason, I keep my staunch opinions OUT of these conversations.  My opinion isn't fact, and it often has no place in reality.  This is a VERY complex situation.  While I can voice my opinion, I damn well better preface that it is JUST MY OPINION.  Unless, my opinion can be reasonably implemented into "What is currently real".

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Kappy you know thoses green circles we talked about ?  They are growing corn.. You know what they got growing between the rows? Carefully hidden form arial view..I am here I'm not relying on inet or media reports. We hunt deer in the fall here in the valley
in those green circles. Yea you know me I like to tell whoppers but this is not one of them.
?

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Ollie,  sure in some cases, but what the F does this all have to do with opinions regarding Immigration, and possible plausible options ?

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I realize you people in big cities dont think there are areas that still retain the old rural ways and family values but believe me. Most of this country is just that way. Find your way out of the smog and lets go visit some folks.

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OK,  Now can we let those that wish to discuss immigration continue to do so ?

You should've let me know before this that you were also part of the halftime comedic routine.

I'm not saying that old family values are wrong by ANY stretch of ones imagination.  I am saying despite old family values we are dealing with VERY different situations than those we saw in the 1950's (right OR wrong OR just how things evolve) !   And, these are of utmost consideration when considering means of rectifying certain situations (that might not've been considerations in "The old days").

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

You asked for a link on the weed stats. I assumed that was what you were talking about. Anything else come out to co I will show you and let you interview the actual people that are experiencing it.I am here I see it every day You think I'm hallucinating or what No dont answert that

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Sorry Eben, Magz, Kelly, Charmin,  Matt, et al


Karyoker has been brought to the private locked room where he'll be under 72 hour watch.   I'll be typing in other threads.



Please... RESUME !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Ok if you will read the thread on personal view you will realize you can get truths on the matter and what the media says or what the internet has. Charmin and I are trying tp tell you like is right now HERE where its going on!!! Erroneous facts? WE deal with it ao a daily personal basis. Yet you people want to argue with us... Like you know whats going on Do you realy think the media is giving you the whole or true story?

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SHEESH!

(orderly !     He's escaped)

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Ok Jerry Springers on Ill be gone awhile

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Hmm, are you implying that just because we live in a city that we don't have any family values? Very presumptuous of you. It seems that if we live this side of the Rockys, we are just heathens with no family value what so ever. I would be very careful categorizing people based on your perception.

I can easily say that most of the US residents have no family values what so ever, based on first generation immigrant standards. I mean how could you even let an elderly go to a elderly homes just because you don't have time to take care of them? To many immigrants, that's totally not acceptable. An elderly should be respected and taken care of by the younger generation. That's a family value.

Do you still have your parents, if they are living, live with you? Have they? Did you take care of them until they passed away? Were you with them their whole later life? You didn't? Shame on your family values.

So, as you can see, "family value" is personal and private. I would never tout something as personal as family value be the guide on judging a group of people. I would suggest you do the same.

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Seize the day and SING!!!

Well, you started out by calling all us "liberals" for causing all of this initially, thus my comment about conservatives.

As for statistics. So, since you believe statistics and polls are lies, you just base your opinions on your feelings and emotions? Pretty closed minded stands from where I see it. At least I try to read up on issues and try to learn from it, whether they are lies from one side or other. Citing stats that is 10 years old and firmly believing that those stats are the fact and never changing one's mind to me is not someone who is open minded or has a worldly view.

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Seize the day and SING!!!

Do you have to twist around everything I say? You were telling me to accept things the way they are progressing I see old family ways and traditions being destroyed. I did not accuse city boys of not having family values.

I have seen change for 66 years and have adapted and changed very well thank you BTW ny mother is still here at 98 years young. If you knew what this country was like 60 years ago then maybe you would understand my attitude. If you think this country is healthy and everything is alright and want to sit there and accept it thats your prerogative. But dont tell me to accept it I laid my life down for this country and took an oath to defend the constitution which I will carry to the grave.

And it also obvious you dont have sense of humor but want be sensitive and judgemental about what everyone says and takes one phrase (or 2 words) out of context and tries to base a conclusion on it.  There for awhile I was dealing with 3 posters at once.

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I know what this country was like 50 years ago and I don't understand YOUR attitude (Given the context of this discussion).  Whether you realize it or not,  your current presentation given THIS topic is making a mockery out've those of us that are older, and likely "Conservative". You don't have to accept ANYTHING as is,  but assuming you do not recognise "what is" throwing tantrums over "what no longer is" makes you as jeuvenile and unreasonable as those you deem "Young, valueless, naive, liberal AND DISRESPECTFUL" (Given a topic of what can be done to help remedy current Immigration situation given current times)

MOST clearly see that there are problems today with "Values". Similarly, MOST of todays young aren't to be blamed.  What you are stating really isn't that much of a revelation.  What you are doing is essentially sticking your tongue out and saying,

"MY TIME was better than your time".

Fact is,  there was corruption during YOUR TIME too !  You merely view the past thru "rose-colored glasses".  But still, that isn't relevant to THIS particular conversation.  Because if you aren't willing to attempt to understand what is and accept SOME aspects of it,  you can't be a part of a solution. MANY of us feel at times compelled to damn what the world has become.  For that reason, I don't belong in certain discussions.  What happens is I become a negative presence.

Fact is,  NOW is *OUR TIME*, and bashing it in comparison to "When values were different", has NO merit TODAY, in THIS discussion, unless it directly links to a present day solution, or relevent subject related to immigration today.  You've again weasled "When I was a kid" into this conversation and taken a supercillious outlook on all others without regard for this subject matter.  If you wish to live in the past, and debate from the past, that's your choice, but it sticks out like a sore thumb in a present day debate.   Without regard for NOW,  there's no conversation that isn't FANTASY.  If you can't at least LOOK at what IS without total repugnance and a need to blame,  you don't belong in a current events conversation

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I guess if I dont verbalize in strictly formal format and consice context then you dont have a clue what I am saying. Whattsa matta ypu You cant handle emotion? Now please dont take that as an insult to the entire Italian race.

I am not debating from fanatsies or past antiquated mores or values. I am sitting here talking about real live current events. I am applying values and ideas form this region not conn. or cal.  How you people are reading all this into my posts is totally beyond me unless you are so eager to argue you jump at any little discrepancy and totally blow it out of proportion.

 I try to take the venom out of a thread (including mine) inject some humor and a bit of contreversy and you people go nuts.

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Believe it or not while my presentation appears emotional, I am just being emphatic,  I still love you Ollie you old nutcase !  :worship: and believe it or not, there is almost NO emotion in what I am typing what-so-ever.  I'm presenting what I believe to be factual based on your display here.  I DO respect that you've served our country, but don't weasle YOUR value system which is off-topic into THIS thread manipulating it to "My values vs You liberal kids".  I was enjoying reading those that were presenting facts, and discussing immigration.  This thread was going VERY well... Leave it be if you must talk down to others rather than talk TO them.  If you can't discuss IMMIGRATION and present "facts", if you can only argue from emotion, you haven't transcended what most in here HAVE managed to transcend in order to attempt to communicate and discuss a very real and difficult CURRENT situation. Don't go off on tangents citing false facts throwing stinkbombs into a thread that's going very well !




I saw no venom,  I saw people attempting to refute facts with facts.  That IMHO is IDEAL given this type of discussion.  It is a civil debate, ALL were being quite respectful and agreeing to disagree.    This was a serious VERY smooth debate. Please leave it be ! What was accomplished in here over the past 4 pages is extremely difficult to achieve in an internet debate of this type.  Have enough respect to keep this on the topic of IMMIGRATION.

ALL feel emotion,  but most have managed to transcend enough emotion to LISTEN to others, and respond with present fact regarding Immigration

(this will be my last post here,  things were going very well, I was enjoying reading the conversations of others that have more knowledge about this area than I have, I was enjoying NOT partipating in an area I don't feel suited to participate in but instead read, absorb, and learn)

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Good gosh.... MUST I bring out the whip?  :shock:

Ollie, I understand what you're saying somewhat. When you live in an area that you SEE the worst of what is happening on a daily basis, it's hard to hear other people spout stats from internet pages and say WE are wrong for feeling the way we do. BUT... this could (should) stay civil. At the end of the day, you're still the same person with the same values... only YOU go to sleep being YOU at night. Don't let other's opinions and beliefs get under your skin so easily.

I don't understand why you, Magz, and you, Ben- are getting so defensive. Neither of you are illegal immigrants, nobody is saying you don't belong here. Nobody is saying "race against race", it's more "legal citizen against illegal immiration". Why is that so hard to comprehend?

It’s so easy to read around for hours on end, and only glean from these websites what you WANT to read. I can find stats online too.
This is what is happening in my town…. THIS is why I want the illegal immigration to stop. My kids can’t walk to the store without fear my fearing that they could unwillingly be caught up in crap like this. Before heads were turned about illegal migrants, before they were issued driver’s licenses and given welfare, this didn’t happen.

http://www.canbypolice.com/press_pages/070704_1035.html

And in case you think “this happens in big cities all the time”, here are my town’s stats, I live in a pretty small place to be having the gang and illegal alien problems we have:
http://www.hometownlocator.com/CountySu ... FIPS=41005

From
http://www.usimmigrationlawyers.com/res ... regon.html  :::
Illegal Residents
90,000 illegal aliens resided in Oregon as of 2000, according to INS figures. This is almost triple the previous INS estimate in 1996 and 333 percent higher than the estimate for 1990, giving Oregon the 14th largest illegal immigrant population in the country.
In a month-long investigation of Portland’s service industry in 2001, immigration agents review paperwork for 3,306 employees and discovered that 25 percent were illegal aliens. Recent raids by government officials have found hundreds of illegal aliens working in Oregon’s service and tourist industries and involved in ID fraud as well as immigrants charged with working to support terrorism here and abroad.
Oregon authorities requested compensation of $20 million from the federal government in FY’99 for the incarceration of illegal aliens in state and local jails and prisons (under the federal State Criminal Alien Assistance Program, or SCAAP), but it received only $8 million in compensation, leaving $12 million in uncompensated costs to be borne by Oregon taxpayers.

And go read here:
http://www.usbc.org/election2006/storie ... oregon.htm

and here:
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?p ... searchf392

To me, no matter the population... 90,000 illegals is TOO MANY... when my American dollars help support them being here illegally. That money could go into our schools, to improving our roadways, to needy American mothers raising kids on their own who need medical, to keeping our own danged criminals off the streets, to lots of other places.  

You can google till the cows come home and find all kinds of stuff. (and a lot with differing numbers and such) Point is, there is NO denying it's a problem. And it needs to be resolved. Where are we going to be in 20 more years? What's my grandson got to look forward to, another tax being added to HIS wages when he grows up and becomes a man? A "support your local illegal alien" tax?

Magz... I'll give on that one. "White man" was a poor choice of word. I should have said "US citizen"... that was a tacky phrase coming from me. To me, an "American" is anyone who was born here and made this place their home, or came here legally to make this place their home. Yes, we ALL migrated here from SOMEwhere. My roots are Irish and Indian, with a bit of Swedish blood from a great great grandma. But the original settlers came here, staked their land and worked their butts off to prove they were worthy of that land. They did not come here and say "support me" while I pick crops and send my wages back to my native land.

Now, I know it's tough for immigrants to come here and become citizens. But, what of the Mexican government? Don't you think it's time they start building a better country and do something to assure a better economy for their citizens? I don't like the stories I hear of he poverty in Mexico, to think of little kids actually going hungry and not having proper clothing and shelter... sickens me.  But is it our fault? Should my money be taken and MY kids do without, just because Mexico is a poor country? No. They need to reform their own country, force their government to take care of them. But do you think the Mexican government is GOING to?...... when they can let their citizens keep crossing our borders and making money to send back to Mexico? No, they are not. Doing something about keping illegal immigrants in their own country, will force them to step up to the plate.



Yes. They come back what is called a "no hit", meaning no SSN applies to that person. I didn't say we GET a credit report on them, we scan for one... I've bonded people with no SSN.

And actually, Lol, don't take my word for it until I find a proper website to back my lying self, but here... "minority" status gets you government grants as well, to buy homes, go to school, open a business... If you are a minority, doors open and many things (such as SSN) don't apply. I also type letters of credit for these people... a simple letter on letterhead, stating wether or not they pay their bill on time... as do the phone,electric, and cable companies and what have you. These stand for a credit report in place of a real one.... so they can purchase a home. (with no SSN) Migrant status makes it so.  Call me phony if you will, SSN's are NOT needed here to live a pretty dang fine life. (IF you can prove you migrated here, and were not US born) So something as simple as getting foodstamps and medical and licenses... that's just the beginning of what you can get with immigrant status.

And I do know that there is a difference between those who swim the Rio Grand in the dead of night and those who come here on a work visa. Having 3 family members with various businesses I've worked in over the years (a restaurant, a trucking company, and a well pump business and store)... I've become accustomed to what forms make them "legal" to work here.

Eben, just because we disagree somewhat on this topic is not a reason to try to call me ignorant. It DOES irritate me that a family will move here and become legal citizens, and 5 years later still not speak a word of english. If I were to move...permanently... to another country, yes, I'd learn their language and make it my primary language. But I don't plan on doing anything of the sort. I happen to love living in America, and have no desire to be a citizen of ANY other country. And if I went to visit only, other than carrying a "phrase book" around with me, no, I wouldn't bother taking language lessons. And no, I'd never give up my christmas and 4th of July... but nor would I expect them to celebrate it with me, and hang my flag in their country. But that is all irrelevant... that's something I'll never do. But as someone else pointed out, you can bet your arse that if I didn't work to prove myself, and learn their language, and pay whatever form of taxes they have, and celebrate their religion... they'd ship me back home:)

Let's see.. I was last in California October of 2006... not so long ago. And give me a minute or two, and I'll dig up a website to validate my statement on California's welfare reform.




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