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Age is irrelevant.  A walk across country has nothing to do with actual intelligence.  I can google or read a book written by someone who made that journey to California.  Or I could watch the whole version on Utube, better yet I watched Forest Gump darn it lmao.  Time doesn't grant wisdom, though it is attainable, it's up to the person to reach for it, and to aspire to attain that knowledge.  In short, just because I am young doesn't mean my views aren't based in fact, nor does my mere 24 years make my opinions any less relevant than yours

I'm so glad you've clarified your intentions.

You'll have to educate me on which rights you are speaking of as I know of none of them.  Also you'll have to introduce me to a liberal republican, I never knew such an animal exsisted.

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[scroll][glow=darkorchid]~I'm the girl your mother warned you about~[/scroll][/glow]

Okay, I've not read the whole thread, just bits and pieces... but I must say I agree with Maggie about the age thing, it CAN be relevant but quite often is not. Suppose it depends on how much that particular person chooses to learn within a given time period. I have known young people wise WAY beyond their years in their knowledge of the world... and I have known middle aged people who obviously have not sought out any knowledge of their surrounding world. Maggie, I'll have to forward you an email I got recently... I reckon you'll get a giggle from it and it's proof of how ignorance knows no age limit.

I'm not American, I am Canadian... however (not being insulting to any particular government here) we do know that politicians tend to pick rather erm... strange priorities at times. Here in Canada, we have health care issues, education issues etc... for example, there was a time we were able to get a family doctor pretty easily most places,  can't anymore.  So our premier here in Ontario is pouring energy into what? Getting Facebook shut down...  I will never understand the mind of most politicians, and have yet to see one I trust even a little bit.

That's just my  :2cents:

Oh, and (most importantly) no matter what your age is, it's your right to care what your government is spending money on.

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Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure. (I can't hear you. I have a banana in my ear.)

From what I've heard (and god only knows how credible my sources have been) I thought the system of socialized medicine was working quite well for most in Canada.   Something else I'm curious about.  I've heard a few that are somewhat wealthy denounce it though.  Dunno.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

To try to cover everything wrong with every policy just sends the whole discussion into a tailspin.

IF the topic of concern is "Immigration Policy", that's a platefull without combining whether or not "Iraq should have been sanctioned by a larger and more coordinated effort", and than blaming this all on the electoral college for Gore's losing  LOL.. All of these are frustrating areas for many, but they don't ALL have to with "immigration Policy" in terms of how it can be tangibly discussed at this point. We're dealing with certain variables that exist, whether they could've been avoided (assuming things went differently in the past) is moot.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

It's actually declined really fast over the last 10 years. Not to say you can't see *a* doctor... as long as there's a walk in clinic opened and the lines aren't too long at the hospital. I have been in the city I'm in for almost 2 years now and still can't get a family doc. Not a big deal most the time because I'm stubborn about going to see the doc unless I really need to, (and my health is pretty good) however it's bad for people with ongoing health problems that really need to see the same doctor regularly. Some of the walk in clinic docs are absolutely awesome and dedicated.... some not so much. It's Russian roulette who you get when you walk in. At least with a family doc you know what you're in for when you walk in, you know? I had a family doc in the last city I was in, when the one we had retired, it took them a year to get us hooked up with a new one... and my ex husband was a diabetic with other health issues so it wasn't a great situation.

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Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure. (I can't hear you. I have a banana in my ear.)

Well said Steven. Political debates are probably one of the hardest to stay on topic with because there's always more than one issue and it's like a big web. I think he sucks too, but that's irrelevant to the debate. Immigration has always been an issue, even before Bush was around... and will be long after he's gone.  

Love the avatar by the way... I have one that says "not even kittens can save this thread now".

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Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure. (I can't hear you. I have a banana in my ear.)

I wouldn't be happy given this condition  :(   NOT at all !

I require a good doc.  She's got to giggle when I turn my head to cough,  Not that socialized doc who claimed he was checking my prostate with his hands on my shoulders.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

That's very true. Most all construction jobs now have mainly spanish speaking employees. When my two older boys went into the workforce at age 16, there are lots of jobs they would have liked to have had. My oldest son took tractor restoration classes as a junior and senior, and did very well at it, and badly wanted a job working in that industry- he thinks John Deere is the coolest thing since apple pie. But most of them, will only hire on white people if you speak spanish... so that you can communicate with all the other workers. They usually will have a foreman that is bilingual to speak to the boss, but everyone else is spanish. When I moved into this house, the field across the road was empty, with new construction just starting. Now, and year and a half later, there have been over 70 new homes built on this street. Between that, and the farm labor in the fields to the left and right of me... my street on workdays looked and sounded a bit like Old Mexico. I KNOW they have all those jobs.



I did check on it one summer, when I lived near Independence. (kind of ironic now, the town being named that) I wanted my kids to have a taste of what working and earning some money was all about, I wasn't working that summer, and so I went and looked at all the berry fields around there (they have lots of blueberry crops in Independence) Of course, I could NOT find anyone who would let them. I mean... I wanted them to have a few days of this... not a full time summer job, just an experience of it... and could not.

What I found out is that there are Spanish men who come here, the ones who DO speak english and have a bit of money, and some connections with local farmers and ranchers and the like. They spread the word in communities of illegal immigrants that they can find them work (no green card or social security needed), then they go to berry fields, nurseries, and the like and tell the employers that they have a "crew" who can complete the job for X amount of dollars. (they underbid what the work would have costed had the employer hired individual employees). So what nursery or cannery owner would turn it down? The business owner saves money and does not even have to worry about things like work comp, benefits, proper wages... he is only paying this "contractor"... "per job completed". You don't owe anything to contract labor other than the agreed wage. And this contractor fellow, he assures the mexicans have some form of housing and a weekly wage. They don't argue the wage, cause it's many times more what they'd make in Mexico... and they think they've "made it" here.  They don't argue the housing cause he rents or owns huge 2 story homes, and puts multiple families there... and that, too, is okay with them.




That's what irks me big time, is that they take the jobs that normally our high school students would be working at. And for crise sake, it would be nice if those hired in fast food could read a bit of english. I NEVER pull out of a drive up without checking my bag at the window for accuracy. They learn to recognize the common words, but can't read things like "hold the ketchup" and "extra sour cream".  LMAO  I'll give up THAT argument the day I receive an order at a drive through window that is absolutely correct:)



Am not.....
I think I'm just stating my opinion, as everyone else. People in this thread are being very candid... this is a subject I don't usually speak outloud on, but I felt I could here. SOMETHING needs to be done about the illegal immigrant situation Steven, nobody should turn a blind eye to it.

And I HAVE seen all sides of this, for years. I live in an area, where I believe we dealt with this long before most of the country did. We are full of tree and flower nurseries, berry crops, hay fields, corn fields, cattle ranches, dairies.. etc. When I moved here as a kid from Texas, there was no large spanish population. I do recall, MANY times, seeing a carload of them on side of the road, being loaded into a police van. If they got pulled over by a policeman and couldn't produce proper US documents... they were loaded up, jailed, and sent south. My dad was a ranch foreman, many times he'd come home and announce "so and so lost their job, apparently they were illegal and got shipped back to Old Mexico". What happened to that scenario? What made officials start turning a blind eye? Because now they are here by the thousands, and STILL as illegal as ever.

The dumbest part of this all, is people will argue that we "are a free country and they should be allowed to make their home here too". Well, sure, IF that is their intention. But it's not. You can go to any Western Union station on friday evenings, and watch them line up one by one and do money transfers to Mexico. (EVERY friday.. at EVERY western union station) If they want to be "citizens", why is their money going to Mexico? And the ones that do move here and have their children here, they send their sons and daughters back to Mexico starting at age 10 or so.. to "learn their heritage"... they send them down there for a year or two, to be educated by relatives in the ways of Old Mexico... so that they can hold onto it, here in America. And so that they don't forget their language. That is not adapting to being an American in my books... that is more trying to turn America into a the all new Mexico. And all the while, as I said in previous threads... our tax dollars (which they don't pay into) are helping pay their welfare, food stamps, and medical... they live here basically for free. They even all qualify instantly for school loans, and home loans, and business loans... the ones who care to reach that far. Solely because they are "immigrants" and "minorities". Truth is, I fear someday WE, who were born here as US citizens, will be the minority. In lots of jobs, that's already so.

I'm not saying ANY other person here should not have their own opinion... or should agree with me. I'm just stating, I have mine too, and it wont be swayed. The illegal immigration status has changed this area too much over time (i'm speaking of the Willamette Valley), and honestly... if it gets much worse, the place wont be fit to live in. It's not just me... ask anyone else who lives around here. It makes me sick... I really hate to see my kids and grandkids grow up in an area like this. But now, it's grown to where it's literally everywhere it seems.

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

well I didn't mean LITERALLY However (as an example) there was this one doc that worked at the walk in, in my old city. He was always in a hurry to get people out of there as fast as he could, even if it meant they weren't getting the treatment they should. My kids fell victim to his crap a couple times. I am not a mom who brings her kid to the doc everytime they have a sniffle, but one time in particular sticks out. My son had slipped and slammed into a wall in gym class while they were playing indoor soccer (I believe that's what it was) He had a massive bruise on his head, and the doc basically yelled at him for banging into the wall, barely took a look at him and then said "yea you're fine" and left the room. I was pretty po'd to say the least... but this guy was the predominant doc at the walk in.
Another one that was a regular at both emerg and the walk in clinic has a horrid reputation for rubber stamping kids on their first time seeing her. I swear she's getting kickbacks from Vital Aire for all the machines she pushes on people...and let's not forget to mention she diagnosed both my kids with ADHD and my oldest with ODD and had them medicated to the max with both risperdal and ritalin when my ex had custody of them. She did this without any real psychological examination I might add. It was only because of my freaking out about it that they got taken off it. My kids would never have seen this doc in the first place if it weren't for that encounter at the walk in clinic. THAT is what I mean about Russian Roulette. No shooting... just heavy medication for no real reason.  :shock:

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Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure. (I can't hear you. I have a banana in my ear.)

Kappy......

Am I "out talking" you?  LOL

Speak out man, I'm making you look like a slacker;)

(j/k... I'm done here, I gotta head to town and then to bed anyhow)

Have a great workweek everyone, maybe catcha another day.  :wave:


.

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

Sorry Magz, I just now saw this part while rereading the whole thread. You're absolutely right... it's NOT easy (or cheap) to become a citizen... but again, other folks from other countries that want to enter do so legally all the time. They go through their own checks and balances all the time. Yes, it takes time.

The whole POINT of wanting folks to read and write the language is so that these potential citizens can join in on the wonderous state of being American citizens. Again, if I wanted to live in Spain, I might be able to get along a bit only knowing English... but dollars to donuts, you KNOW you are going to have to learn the language of the country you want to live in! More doors will open up for you. And the other countries aren't as liberal as we are in that we go out of our way to help the Spanish speaking populace. Strange that we don't do that for the Kenyans or Russians or Chinese...

as for paying taxes with pride... they CAN if they petition to enter the U.S. AS citizens the legal way. This is something that is lost in the great debate on illegal immigrants. Every OTHER immigrant that enters our country legally takes full advantage of our benefits, and likewise gets to pay their taxes and be full and complete citizens. But the illegals want it now because they CAN... they CAN just walk across the Rio Grande, cross into the desert, or walk across the Texas border...
Um, we have LAWS here in the states that say what is acceptable for human standards of living. They are not JUST living in those apartments like that JUST because they're poor. Many illegals drive brand new or newer cars. These type of situations are always so funny seeing the neighborhood streets overflowing with cars because of the huge spillover from apartment complexes that have only so much parking per apartment. In most cases they're lucky to have 2 spaces per apartment.

But moreso than that, the main reason they live like this is it keeps them below the radar. If only one apartment is suspect, that's easier to overlook than fifteen in the same complex. One water bill, one electric bill... much easier to split the costs when everyone is paid in cash ...

No assumption here. It's all fact, at least in Europe. When given a choice between not working plus getting government subsidy versus low paid minimum wage type of work, most have chosen the former. I can't say that it's the case for the US but in Europe, this has proven many times over. I can only assume that it's the same for the US. I know of very few people who are on the government assistance who would go work at a farm where you get paid per production, i.e. what you picked.  I asked them, they flat our told me no.



Again, I have to disagree with you. I bet that if you have a white American who wants that job, he will get it, if it's based on his merit. I have talk to people on the other side, the ones with the farms. This is what they say. They hired the Mexicans because they are hard workers and they work fast and efficient. They have hired others but they didn't perform as efficiently as the workers they hired. So, what's a company to do? Give jobs to people who are not good workers just because they are white? Talk about reverse discrimination. I mean, Shouldn't work be given to those who can do the job best?

I may only be stating one side but those are the people I have talked to.



I am sorry to hear that because I have a lot of respect for you. However, that's the typical "American" attitude that is hated by 80% of the world's population. We are unfortunate to live in a land of plenty, a large mass of land. In other parts of the world, such as Europe, you are required to learn several languages, just because you are within 6 hours of 3-4 languages. It's a matter of convenience.

Talk to most Europeans and they speak at least 3 languages, and most of them speak English. We take that for granted. I have seen so many Americans traveling abroad expect everyone to speak English. They don't even make an effort to learn a few phrases, just out of respect. I mean, there is a reason why most Parisian refuse to speak English to American tourists, even though they speak near perfect English. There is a huge difference between "Do you speak English" versus "Parler Vous Anglais?" when in France. Believe me, I know.

Continued

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Seize the day and SING!!!

First message was too long. Here is part 2.





Well, again, I see it as diversification, not a forced issue. Imagine if you were to move to Saudi Arabia for a job or because your husband had a job. You go there and find that there are no government sponsored Arabic language courses. How would you learn that language? Pay a lot of money and get a private tutor? Around here, it's not just Spanish. We have a Mandarin immersion courses for kids through adults. It's the population around there that demands it. We had a few "white" parents who thought that Mandarin course was a waste of time because their kids never would benefit from it. However, there were many kids who were not Chinese who enrolled in the class and learned a new language and culture. Most of the people around here thinks it's a good thing to diversify. Again, cultural differences between different regions of US.



Hmm, ok. I won't call you a racist. Most of the people don't consider themselves racist and I do believe that they are not. I think most of the people, perhaps not yourself, are not racist, just ignorant. I am sorry for such a strong language but it's hard to keep in perspective of things when people form an opinion yet they have never left their county, or their city.

I am not implying that is you but much of the rhetoric of that nature comes from people who have never experience the world and the diversification. Those are the people who never experienced immigrating to other countries and experience all the issues that comes with it. Again, my first point stands, if you only support the legal immigration, people who comes here will be middle class and up.

First of all, for them to get any kind of aids, such as foodstamp or government assistance, you need to have a social security card. I am not really familiar with the process but I didn't think you can get a social security without at least having some proof of legal status in the country. If not, then it's my bad but I didn't think undocumented worker without social security number can get any assistance.



I also do not believe in the fence. I also believe that we need to be careful. We do not want facism in our country. Hitler passed a law that prohibited Jews from owning any business after taking over Gemany. He made all Jews wear a Star of David on their clothing so they can be identified. While I am not debating on legality of hiring illegal aliens at work place should be approved or not, however, should our rights be questioned just because we want to find some minority of people who break the law? I mean, just because someone is of Mexican decedent, or any race for that matter, working a low wage job they should be suspected of being illegal and have their place of hiring be raided? Just because maybe 20% of the companies hire illegal alien that everyone should be raided and checked for papers? Who decides which gets raided? What rule should we use to interrupt a normal operation of a company, whether they are following the law or not for such police action? Who should enforce it? Federal agents? State Troopers? County Sheriffs? City Police? Which law should apply? Federal law? State law?

I mean, have you thought about all these implications?



Again, I respect your opinions. I am sure you have seen and think you KNOW what you are talking about. I believe the same. I have traveled the world and seen a lot. I would like to say that I KNOW what I am talking about, but I can't. I can only say what I have seen, studied and experiences myself. My opinion just happens to be different then yours and I do care what others think, I learn something I didn't know, often from others who offer opinions.

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Seize the day and SING!!!

I know,  I'm just the self-acclaimed comedic halftime activity.


There're some very tough obstacles regarding immigration issues,  a hundred years ago people came to this country wanting to work, knowing that they'd need to.  But a hundred years ago exploitation of our tax money wasn't a concern either, and of course this is a legit concern, when we pay into a system we don't wish to have a system exploited in a worse manner than we already see.  It's naturally frustrating when WE work, pay into a system, and can't afford dental, yet those on title-19 can get state assistance. (Economic security act which shortly thereafter become Social Security didn't exist prior to 1935). Nobody can discount concerns regarding "Why should THEY benefit from a tax system I pay into and get so little out've".  This is a legit concern (and it's an internal issue).  There're other problems I've seen, and this sickened me.  Again a domestic situation.

A hard working grounds person here really was a fabulous worker, he was Mexican, and took pride in the job,  could've easily become a good forman; Instead what happened was the American co-workers told him to slow down, take a break, in fact he was told " Slow down,  you don't need to work that hard, you're making us look bad".  He ended up quite unhappy.  Assume an immigrant does come to this country.   Seeing how things work, seeing that hard work doesn't always pay off because they see slouches born and raised here, getting more benefits cheating a system.  Some come here,  marry and become citizens,  while others come here temporarily, work VERY hard, and customs deports them.  THe system DOES need work,  but even without immigration, exploitation within our system by those born and raised here is a huge problem.  Should this put an end to immigration ? I certainly don't think so,  I think MANY deserve what this country has to offer despite race, creed or color.  We also had a rude awakening 911 learning some that have come to this country are given certain opportunities such as the pilots that trained at Embry-Riddle in Florida and we learned what their mission was.  Destroying the WTC. The White House,  and the Pentagon.  Yet is this a problem with foreigners ?  Hell no... We have domestic terrorists too...


Our country is having major issues.  Given the way the deck is currently stacked,  how can we work out a fair immigration policy ?  This is a VERY VERY tough question.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I don't know if anyone actually know how much it takes to get a legal status in the US. First, you need a sponsor who is a citizen of US. Then, it will cost you upwards of $50,000 to file for a permanent residence, may cost less but it's not cheap. That's why if you look at the demographics of those who come over legally, it's usually a family member who's US family can afford to pay for it, or they are already in middle class or higher. It's not only time that is required.



You are absolutely right. However, if you look at how many people who comes to the US making efforts to learn English versus those Americans who move to overseas who try to learn their language, it's not even close. Many Americans can get away with English in many parts of the world so they never learn the language, or the local customs. That's why Americans get a bad rap overseas.

In California, the voting ballot is in several languages, including Spanish, Chinese and Vietnamese. It's the state law. Here, Spanish speaking Hispanics are about 35%, Asians are 11%. Did you know that in California, minorities are majority now? Non-white population in CA is 51%. By 2050, that will be 75%.



Again, I am puzzled. I am pretty sure that for you to qualify for the government assistance, you have to have a Social Security Number, which is used to pay taxes. How do they take advantage of our benefits? They may take advantage of some charity organizations, when it comes to some benefits but they can take full advantage without papers of some sort? That's hard to believe.

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Seize the day and SING!!!

Very well put Steven. I totally agree with you on many points. Let me start with one. I have seen that work ethic difference between an immigrant versus non-immigrant. I went to a lecture by a prominent professor at Stanford and he had a strong opinion on why Silicon Valley is such a success and why it's not duplicated in the world.

One major difference is diversification. For example, every single high tech start up company here at Silicon Valley has at least one immigrant. His theory is why these companies succeed is that immigrants have higher work ethic because they had to work harder just to gain equity with natives. So, working 16 hour days is not a big deal and that's one of major success factor.

Companies like Google, Yahoo, eBay and Netscape all had one of the founder who were immigrants. Can't argue with success.

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Seize the day and SING!!!

nope, you can get food stamps and welfare just by showing some proof of residency. A phone bill, gas bill, electricity. Even spam mail can count.

Oregon is giving illegals drivers licenses.

It didn't cost hardly anything for my two buddies that brought their wives over from Taiwan and the Phillipenes. But what it took was time and paperwork!

Yes, you do need a sponsor.

Well, it's kind of funny because don't you need a some proof of ID for you to get a phone line or gas line? At least here, they need a ID or some sort or Social Security Card for you to get that, unless you want to deposit like $300 for security for electricity and gas line, which I doubt most of the illegal workers can afford. I really don't know but I was under the impression that you do need some sort of ID for you to get most anything.

CA is considering giving drivers license to illegals but they do not yet do it, as far as I know.

As for the cost for immigration, I think the law applies differently from bringing a wife over to bringing a family. I think there is a cost differences, at least according to my friend who's a lawyer.

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Seize the day and SING!!!

I thought I'd look up just what the requirements are for things like food stamps and driver's licenses at least here in Oregon. Having a valid social security number and proof of identity and address are required.

Food Stamps --
http://www.groceriesforfree.org/welfare ... 5289753511

"Who Can Qualify For Food Stamps?
You Must Must Have The Following To Qualify:

Must have a social security number
Must be a US citizen, US national, American Indian, or born in Canada or Mexico as a qualified alien.
Criteria For Eligibility:

Legal immigrant children under the age of 18
Blind or disabled legal immigrants who receive disability assistance or benefits
People that are 65 or older who legally resided in the U.S. on or before August 22, 1931
Lawful Permanent Residents (LPR) with a military connection includes; Hmong or Highland Laotian tribes who helped the U.S. military during the Vietnam era, veterans, active duty, or a spouse or a child of a veteran or active duty service member
Refugees admitted under section 207 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA)
Asylees under section 208 of the INA
Immigrants whose deportation or removal is withheld under section 243(h) or 241(b)(3) of the INA
Cuban or Haitian entrants under section 501(e) of the Refugee Education Assistance Act of 1980
American Asian immigrants under section 584 of the Foreign Operations, Export Financing and Related Programs Appropriations Act of 1988"


Oregon Drivers License:
http://www.dmv.org/or-oregon/apply-license.php

"Applying for a Driver License in Oregon
The basic requirements for a regular driver license in Oregon are:

Show proof of residence in Oregon
Be at least 18 years old (if younger than 18, see our Teen Drivers section)
Complete Driver License and Identification Card Application
Provide Social Security number
Show proof of identity........"

and that's the root of the problem Eben... they're allowing folks to get rights and priv. that the rest of us "citizens" DON'T get the rights with the same conditions.