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Magz, you may hate the Patriot Act, but there's a full reason for it.

Two missing towers in NYC, and four planes that were taken over.

This goes all the way back to the Iran Hostage crisis. We are at WAR WITH Terrorism, specifically, the Patriot Act empowers certain actions. Yes, actions that we as citizens would love to not have encroached on. But what do you do when those we are at war with use those same freedoms and priviledges to wage their war with us?

Eventually, freedoms will have to be curtailed a bit to fight these folks.

You live in one of the few countries where you CAN speak out against your leader and not be imprisoned or brought up on charges. Or killed.

I respect that your husband fought for this country. I too served when I volunteered, and even though I didn't want to, went to combat. Fortunately for me, it wasn't that long. But I can tell you I STILL pay for that action, even today.

As for the Native Americans, I CAN speak out on that. I have three verifiable tribes of Indian blood flowing in my veins. Blackfoot, Osage and Fox. One other Native American is there, but there was no documentation on her. The marraige certificate only shows "Squaw", and she was bought out of her slavery to be married to my ancestor.

Acutally, the USA IS our house. It's our house in the same rights as you pay your taxes. You register to vote (or don't), and you have the right to decide what rights you want for your "home".

People that enter illegally do not have this right. But they don't want to wait like the other immigrants. They want their money to send back to Mexico or Iraq. They live 30 people in a 2 bedroom apartment, live off welfare and food stamps... all of which comes out of our state and federal taxes.

The solution is simple: ALL immigrants should go through the same exact process. If you don't have a legal right to be here, they should be deported.

This is interesting: http://www.theamericanresistance.com/so ... ignty.html . I always wondered what exactly Bush meant by the term 'New World Order' and his large support for NAFTA. Seems this goes a long way to explain some of it.

Magz, based on this if you support illegal immigration then it seems Bush is actually your ally. Certainly he is on the side of Ted Kennedy when it ocmes to 'immigration reform' which is amazing when you consider one is supposed to be a conservative Republican and the other a liberal Democrat. As I recall, Bush has been mostly forced into allowing this legilation regarding the wall.

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The Truth Is Out There

Whoa! I did a scan on Google for 'facts of illegal immigration', and I got a ton of sources. Here is an especially nasty sounding one stating dire consequences as a result of the trend. It is called 'The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration' and is just a huge source of facts / statistics on the issue and how it may be a real and future growing problem for the US. http://www.usillegalaliens.com/

Here is a summary of some of the primary problems stated on one of the main pages:

* easy conduit for terrorists entering the USA
* massive escalation in crime
* surge in foreign national prisoners to support for years
* increases Balkanization of US
* increases multiculturalism/segregation/divisiveness instead of the American melting pot
* increases desire for Aztlan (reclaiming SW states for Mexico)
* increasing number of traffic accidents
* main contributor to surging US population
* dramatic impact on society and infrastructure, including education
* destruction of fragile ecosystems in American SW
* main cause of emergency rooms and hospitals closing as well as service cut backs
* introduction of third world diseases
* increased welfare costs
* massive costs to society – over and above contributions

To me, this brings to mind a few thoughts:

* The border is basically open and smuggling nuclear, and chemical / biological weapons across the border by our 'friends' the Islamic Fascists who are statedly bent on our destruction is a real possibility. If / when we lose a city or two things could get interesting.

* I believe in twenty years the illegal (primarily Mexican) population is expected to be about 1/3 the population of the US. Republicans and Democrats are drastically trying to find ways to allow them rights and the ability to vote. If that is true, then the political landscape and ownership of our country will be quite different in 20 years. What will the value of our votes as historically legal citizens be at that time? Will we be happy with the outcome?

* The large increases in crime are somewhat untraceable. This is because of course these people are not US citizens and no record exists such as birth certificate, fingerprints, etc to track and document them. How would any of us feel if someone in our family was murdered, or raped by someone that isn't even supposed to be in this country, but that the government allowed in regardless? Supposedly, by the statistics this has happened way too many times and the  numbers are going up.

* I have often heard almost since a child how Social Security will go bankrupt as the Baby Boomers retire. Baby Boomers are retiring and will be for some time and yes, medical care is going up, cost of living going up. I also notice so many true Americans that live pay check to pay check with no savings and no retirement plan. If what the above says is true about the costs to our social infrastructure regarding supporting the illegal population - then how much more will Social Security be bankrupt, and what is going to happen to a large majority of Americans retiring in 15 to 30 years?

* I was listening to radio KLBJ yesterday on Jeff Ward's show, and they were discussing the failing grade for Johnston High School in Austin, and were considering closing the school. An African American mother called in with about 40 years experience with the school and explained that the problem with the school was they were teaching English as a second language, and rather than trying to teach a standard, typical curriculum they apparently have ended up being a dumping ground for non-English speaking Mexican students.  Apparently there is a limited number of Spanish speaking teachers so this lady stated that her kid was bumped from a good math class because the teacher spoke Spanish and could work with non-English speaking kids. Her kid went somewhere that they didn't do very good. I didn't really understand the full mechanics other than to say that she stated they were overrun with non-English speaking and had no funds for this, and other kids education was suffering because of it, and overall grades and scores for the school had gone way down because of the continued disruption.

* When I was a kid there were lots of regular legal Americans of various races that worked in the construction (home building) industry. Sadly, I have noted that there appear to be almost no non-hispanic likely legal construction workers around in Texas - (at least Austin) anymore. I have even heard this mentioned under the table by one of the builders salesperson for a house I was recently interested in. He stated that with recent scares / visits by immigration personal that there could be delays in any homebuilding as his crews go underground when this happens.  Someone (on here I believe) mentioned they can no longer get a construction job because they don't speak Spanish. Also, as I understand the process, the abundant, cheap, unskilled labor provided by illegals artificially lowers the wages paid by construction companies to the point where typical tax paying workers cannot afford to take those jobs. This effectively kills the entire lower unskilled worker job market in American for legal US workers.  The greedy corporations and businesses, not the guy on the street make all the profits.

* Also here is another mega trend for you. As the lower class unskilled laborer jobs are effectively eliminated from the US for legal workers - additionally there is an ongoing trend with corporations and businesses for highly skilled middle income workers to be down sized in the US, and the government subsidizes for these corps / businesses to open plants over seas and lay off workers at home while hiring cheaper labor from Mexico, India, etc.  The trend is toward a large reduction / elimination of skilled US middle income high school / college graduate workers.

* Additionally the US continues to decline as a manufacturing nation - making fewer and fewer things. Most things are now manufactured overseas. We have primarily switched to an information / service industry. Can a nation continue to grow and prosper with no manufacturing? What if we continue to decline in scientific achievement, patents are infringed / stolen, technical secrets stolen and given away? All the while China rises, as does the European Union, Russia, India. In other words a lot of our prosperity has been based on our knowledge and superior techniques, but if we give that away, what is left?

* To put these concepts together...if the unskilled lower wage jobs are taken by illegals, and the skilled middle income jobs are eliminated and sent overseas, and if manufacturing is mostly gone, and we likely have lost our superior technical advantage, then what is left for the US worker, and how will people make a living in the future?

I guess I've started to get a bit away from the central topic here, but what I wanted to bring up is this is really tied into a large and complicated issue / situation. In my opinion, what I am seeing now, the future of the US does not look so bright. And sure I'm not sure I like what I've seen with the Patriot Act, etc either.

We are supposedly a nation primarily founded on Judeo / Christian values / principles. On the one hand perhaps the Christian thing to do (assuming you are Christian) is to just open up and give everything away equal / and share equally - although I'd have to say Christ wouldn't be focused on what we give or take, but on what God wants and that of His Kingdom to Come. If you are Jewish, then there is the rule of The Law. If you aren't Christian / Jewish then I suppose anything in the spectrum is possible. In a sense...in that sense certainly everything regarding your perspective could be relative depending on your beliefs. What is the right thing to do? Who has the right to claim it? Do any of us have the right to claim it, or to even claim the right to exist? If so, then, by who's authority? I'd say that most of that is spelled out in our charter, or Constitution, and Bill of Rights and should be easy to determine, although somehow it appears the courts are often interpreting / changing meaning of that rather than simply following the letter of what it says.

As for the native Americans...yeah that was tough and unfair, but such is life. People die every day and that is never fair. In truth, in this world might is right. And those with the sword make the rules. These rules were made long ago, and this country was established with a set of laws. One of the central laws and rules of any government first and foremost is to protect the country from invasion. Now, it seems to me by any liberal definition 8 million people a year or so give / take crossing the border would be an invasion. EDIT: Not sure where I got that number. I thought about it this morning and looked it up. This is closer somewhere at the moment between 500,000 a year and 3 million a year. That's still a lot, and the 20 year number is still around 1/3 the population of the US I believe. END EDIT

It is up to all of us to decide whether or not we care. The country we live in tomorrow, will be based upon what we allow today. If those of us legal residents are not strong enough to keep and appreciate that which we have then simply it will be taken away. And guess what? It appears much of the old has gone already. It is up to all of us to decide whether or not that is 'progress' and whether that progress is 'good'.

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The Truth Is Out There

*sigh

Why can't all people who disagree with me speak like you do?

I completely understand where you're coming from as far as the Patriot Act, you believe that for safety (in times of peril) rights can be taken away for protection.  The thing is that I just disagree with it.  I'm too mindful of history repeating itself.

The Reichstag fire was a pivotal event in the establishment of Nazi Germany.  On the night of February 27, 1933, the Reichstag building, the assembly location of the German Parliament, was ablaze.  The fire was used as evidence that the Communists were beginning a plot against the German government. Van der Lubbe (blamed for the fire) and 4000 Communist leaders were arrested. Then-chancellor Adolf Hitler demanded President Hindenburg pass an emergency decree in order to counter the "ruthless confrontation of the KPD". Consequently, habeas corpus was suspended, the death penalty was reintroduced and concentration camps were set up.  This is where it began.
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security"- Benjamin Franklin

.... I stand corrected.  You are right about that.

 It's not that they don't want to wait hun.  It's not easy to become a citizen it's not even feesible in most cases, especially if you can't read or write moreso if you can't speak read or write english.  People are just focusing on the negative.  Not all Mexican immigrants are on welfare, so many of them come here to make a better life for themselves, to just work hard and try to get ahead in life.  They would pay taxes with pride if they were allowed citizenship.  And yes 30 people in a 2 bedroom apartment... they are poor... what is wrong with that?  Should they live on the streets instead?  If they were legal... would anyone care how many people live together?



I agree with you here.  I just want reform of the immigration policy.  Yes keep out people who've committed crimes, but don't keep someone out just because they haven't learned english yet.  I don't want a wall that shuts out a neighbor who if the time presented itself could be a valuable ally.

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[scroll][glow=darkorchid]~I'm the girl your mother warned you about~[/scroll][/glow]

Don't support illegal immigration, don't support a wall being built, don't support the current immigration laws.

There it is in a nutshell.

And as for the New World Order, that speech was given after 9/11 in an attempt to unite us all for the "War on Terror".  Bush also said that no one can remain neutral... at that point in time.  It doesn't have so much to do with immigration as it does attempting to weed out countries harboring "insurgents".

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[scroll][glow=darkorchid]~I'm the girl your mother warned you about~[/scroll][/glow]

While I would love to refute everything you say, it's not possible.  There are bad people in this world.  The real question is should we punish the masses for the actions of the few?

That being said, I'm going to just post a letter written to me by a dear friend when I asked him what he thought of immigration and border security.....

Maggie,

I'd like to thank the illegal immigrants for being here.

From the experience I have had which is fairly extensive (He's getting a master's in counseling with a specialty in immigration trauma). Most seem to be hard working, law abiding (besides the illegal entry - and driving, that tends to be a trend...), they also largely DO NOT take advantage of the free services such as welfare and hospital/medical care because they are too afraid to get caught and also for the majority of immigrants they are not planning on staying they are here to work for a few years make money to send home and then they leave.

Now I know that this is not everyone's experience with illegal immigration, however it has been my experience. So I just decided to give you a taste from the other side.

PS I also agree that our borders SHOULD and MUST be more secure.

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[scroll][glow=darkorchid]~I'm the girl your mother warned you about~[/scroll][/glow]

That is a great quote by Ben Franklin, and surely we should tread lightly when it comes to our rights, and the possible disappearance of them. At the same time we also have to realize the rule of law is at stake as well as the freedoms of everyone. If by terror or crime everyone eventually lives in fear then certainly we are no longer free. The world and the US is quite different than when the founding fathers lived including Ben. Perhaps technology can be an aid to us in identifying threats; however as is spelled out in Orwell's 1984 technology can be a two edge sword that cuts both ways. I think the Patriot Act should be kept on a VERY tight lease. I'm not sure of the solution here. The Apostle Paul once said, 'let each of us work out our own salvation with fear and trembling', or as someone else has said 'be careful what you sign'.

Regarding the rest of what I say, I concur with what you say regarding the nature of the majority of illegal immigrants. They are for the most part hard working, and honest people just looking for a better life and a chance to make a living. However the issues I bring up while involving the illegal issue is much larger. It regards very many questions and mega trends / political currents at work in the US which are shaping all of our futures. I have not put forth a solution for any of these things because they are complex issues. The solution may be different for each of us if we all have different personal, religous, and political views; however these are very real problems. Soon the US may be a very different place and many / most may be in poverty and political unrest in the coming years. Can a house divided stand? Can a completely open border / country be secure and prosper? If it is ok to ignore our laws regarding the security of our country and turn a blind eye, then why not ignore other laws - all laws?

I think somehow this country needs to come together in unity with a common voice. We need to find just, long reaching, and good answers to the questions I pose and others. If we do it justly and with honor perhaps we will once again earn the concept of being a 'shining city on a hill', a beacon and an example for other countries to follow. If we do not, then I'm afraid darkness falls.

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The Truth Is Out There

Magz,

The comment on your age was not talking "down" to you.  It was a comment from experience.  You have a vision of 24 years on which to base your thoughts and feelings.  I promise that when you double that time, that many of your opinions will change based on the other changes in the world around you.

Several of us on this forum have gone through that and have experienced the changes in our loss of freedom due to liberal thinking.

Sorry you took my comment as insulting.

Kelly

While I agree with you, the solution is never simple. I tell you why. If you apply the same rule to all the immigrants, you will never have the economy you have today. The process of immigration cost money. If you say only the legal immigrants should enter the US, they only the middle class and high class will enter the US because only they can afford the cost associated with immigration.

If that happens then who will do the menial work that is the backbone of the US? Who will work the farm lands of Central Valley, CA where 40% of the total crop for the US comes from? Who will work in back of restaurants for minimum wages? Who will work the jobs that no one in the US wants to do?

This has been proven over and over in the history. Just look at the recent examples in Europe. When the conservatives took over in France, they passed an anti-immigration law, citing all the criminal activities the Algerians and other immigrants were bringing in to France. This has caused severe shortage of menial labor force for jobs no French wanted to do. The business people cried out that this wasn't working and they had to revise the law to allow more immigration. This was before the EU. Germany went through the similar issues in the past, as did Spain.

While I am not a supporter of illegal immigration, you have to look at all the sides before making a decision that may effect many people other than immigrants.

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Seize the day and SING!!!

I didn't find it insulting, I found it to make my opinions less valid.  I was NEVER EVER mad at you in anyway.  You merely thought my age a factor and did not actually treat me as if I were a child like ... well anyway.  I felt you were talking down to me because age is irrelevant to the difference as to whether an opinion is right or wrong, or even well thought out.

There is a famous quote though I can't remember who said it....
"A man who isn't a liberal at 20 and then a conservative at 40 isn't paying attention".

What I would like to point out is that when you double your years, your views will have changed as well.  My views may very well stay the same, it all depends on what we go through in life.  Which is why I'm sure you can understand why I'm liberal, because in my life, conservatives have taken away my rights... therefore it's them I'm upset with.  And I'm sure you have your own reasons for being upset with liberals.

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[scroll][glow=darkorchid]~I'm the girl your mother warned you about~[/scroll][/glow]

First, age IS relevant.  It IS a factor . If applied right it gives you MORE  information.  If I am walking to California from New York and I have only gotten to Chicago, I can only surmise the rest of the journey.

And I could care less if you were mad at me.  I only stated that my comment was not intended to be insulting.

And since I was born, the rights and freedoms that I feel have been abused and taken away have been from the liberal side of the isle; be it democrat or republican.

Kelly

Ollie,  Now honestly.  In a conversation such as this, a person feeling upset about certain aspects that MANY consider clearly wrong, doesn't differ from your own lashing out at times.  Regardless of whether or not YOU see eye-to-eye on this issue, she feels strongly about her own perception of what is going on.

To address an issue presenting facts is one thing,  but to call somebody "a greedy, individual with no character, honor, or respect, or tolerance for others" in this sense is clearly wrong, and it's an ad hominem attack, it goes nowhere.  Fact is,  agree or disagree she has strong feelings about stuff, and you do too !   Address the issues rather than dismiss her because you feel she's "young, spoiled, disrespectful liberal",  you don't have to agree with her, but she has some valid points, and a right to be unhappy about certain things as do you IMHO. This is HER country too, as it is yours and mine, she feels strongly about certain things and at least she's taking a stand, and not sitting around with her head in the sand, even if her perspective is radically different than yours,  at least she's willing to stand behind her beliefs, (it doesn't mean she should hop the first boat out've this country if she doesn't like it either,  that's a wrong attitude IMHO).  She doesn't like certain things that according to many are VERY wrong. But, nobody see's the other persons perspective when the other person resorts to ad hom argument attacking the persons character..

This is a difficult conversation, but some good points are being brought up by most. Whether you or I like what we hear,  others have a right to their opinion too, and it doesn't make them "poopy stinkies".

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

And let me make one thing absolutely clear. In NO way do I think ALL or even most of the illegal immigrants are criminals, beyond the scope of entering the country the way they did... that's not criminal, that's opportunistic!

As for why can't people agree to disagree and keep it civil, it's because they're too busy LABELING things such as liberal, or conservative, democrat or republican.

These are SERIOUS times, and need to be addressed by serious people. People who want to fix things, not point fingers at who's to blame.

Figuring out who's to blame is the EASY part!

I don't agree with that, I think people are "assuming" that would be the case. I mean, has anyone asked all the poorer class americans, if given the opportunity, WOULD they work those jobs? Cause I'm sure plenty of them would, just to have the job.

Thing is, the employers wont GIVE them to Americans 99% of the time. I've seen it here. Berry crops for one example, a huge industry in the Willamette Valley: when I was a kid it was a job for anyone who chose to do it. LOTS of people let their kids work berry crops over the summer, I for one did it every summer until I was 14 years old, it was a great way for a kid to learn about making money and the responsibility of having a job. These days, they are contracted out to (a group of) mexican workers. I mean seriously, a white man can't get in the field to work if he wanted to. He would be told no, that the job is contracted out already. Because they contract cheaply, in groups, and then they share housing and cars and get their medical and food paid for by the state (our tax dollars).. and they can AFFORD to work that cheaply. No, it's not that your typical american wont do those jobs, it's that they've been pushed out of them.

I'm sick of (what could otherwise be) great jobs requiring you to speak spanish. I refuse to learn a second language for a career that only requires me to speak with locals.

I'm sick of small towns like mine being pressured to "diversify" to keep up with the times, so they build "low income apartment communities" (in other words, migrant farm worker housing) , only to later realize that new funding is needed to put spanish speaking teachers in our schools, and we need to make a whole new job for "Gang violence officer", and all of a sudden for the first time my small town has mexican gang grafiti painted all across our bus stops and parks and shopping centers... and our property taxes are raised. Hmmm.. guess what for? To pay for this bullshit.

I am not racist. Hell, my kids have a lot of friends that are Mexican, they are at my house usually every weekend. There is a Mexican man in my office, he and I get along very well. There are plenty who came here the RIGHT way, paid their dues, learned english, and worked their tails off to BECOME Americans... and they have every right to be here. It's the ones who come here illegally, just to work American jobs and send most of the money back to Mexico for safe keeping, all the while never learning english and drawing cash, foodstamps, and medical from the local welfare.... those are the ones that need to go home.  Then if someday they get caught, perhaps get arrested for something, they hightail it back over the border knowing they can't be traced. It's sick... and needs to come to a stop.

No, I don't think a fence should be built. I think they need to go into farms, nurseries, canneries, restaurants, factories... and ask for legal immigration papers on all of the migrant workers. Those found to be illegal need to be shipped home and the company owners FINED for hiring illegals. Maybe that will make people not be so quick to hire them, and maybe they themselves will get tired of being shipped back across the border and they'll do it the right way.... or stay home:)

I don't care what ANYone else thinks of my opinion. It's mine, and I stand by it 100%... I've seen enough to KNOW what I'm talking about.

As to our war and Bush... I don't agree with everything about this war either. I wish it would end, I'm tired of hearing of killed soldiers, I'm sick of the whole thing. We all have stories of soldiers close to heart that we can tell. I had a brother in Desert Storm, I have another brother who is over there still yet, I have a niece who is being shipped out in two months... they are missing out on lots of things, my niece on her OWN 2 year old son growing up... and I hate it, I'm afraid for them daily, but they joined to stand up for their country, it was their own personal choice to enlist... I consider them very brave, and I will not lessen their bravery by crying that "Bush made them go to war".

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

NICE choice of word Steven... I'm going to report you for cursing so blatantly:)  

But this is a TOUCHY subject... one that puts some in the mood to bash (heads). I'm most likely one of them, I have strong feelings on this issue and can't tolerate the "it's all because of Bush" reasoning. Two, three years from now, a new man will be blamed... and I imagine things will be the same in our country, if not worse. It usually works for most to simply blame the current president. What a heyday people would have if the new pres were to be a lady.

This is obviously a thread I myself should stay out of. I did give my opinion, and probably should leave it at that... cause I'm not about to turn face and say "okay, I see your point"... having looked at all sides, and heard lots of arguments on this issue here and elsewhere... my stance was made long ago.

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

Great post Blue!  I think your avatar deserves whip!


Kelly

The whip is hidden behind her back... no worries, she pulls it out when necessary:)  LOL

Kelly.

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

great post, Charmin.

And I want to reiterate... that it t!cks me off that a labor company such as construction will hire illegals with no experience to train them, but NOT hire a high school grad or someone wanting to change careers with the same condition.

It's not just the farms that the migrant workers work at. They are getting jobs that Americans want.

I too picked berries up in Sandy, Oregon when I was a kid. Then when I moved back, I was told that their jobs were all filled... much like Charmin described.

Then when I was looking for part time work, I was getting turned away because the Taco Bells, Burger Kings, Pizza places... all had illegal labor...

Please take the time to see this video.  Says more in 9 minutes about immigration than we can discuss for the next year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7WJeqxuOfQ



Kelly

Charmin is being a poopy stinky  :ppfftt:


I'm seldom confident that I've "looked at all sides" *and absorbed* differing perspectives with some element of objectivity.  To do so requires curbing enough ego and emotion required to understand others perspectives, and seek a higher goal, a goal similar to what Matt stated, "Having a common interest in being a part of a solution as opposed to allowing clutter to impede clear judgement".  It's tough once we formulate an opinion. Sure like all else, I have strong opinions, but they don't belong in here, because they are MINE, and sometimes it's better to read what others say, process what they have to say and formulate your own opinion rather than feeling put in a situation where we feel compelled to "defend" what we stated. (there's a great deal of ego involved in these conversations, especially when NOT face to face)  

IE.. Best thing I can personally do is read and not try to counter others perspectives without attempting to absorb what is being said, and all that may surround what turns out to be a very different set of circumstances I might not've yet considered.  Sure,  we can debate opposing perspectives,  but viewing other perspectives with enough objectivity to consider whether or not they may have some merit isn't quite so easy.


Oh $hit,  I just burnt my hotdogs !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".