Karaoke Forums

Okay people, C-span is going to be banned in my household from now on, due to my own personal embarrassment!

I was watching it just a day or so ago, and the topic at hand was spending an UNGODLY amount (I mean billions) of money to build a 700 mile long wall between the USA and Mexico...???  And guess who was supporting it... my state representatives that I didn't vote for.

I'm going to leave the fact that alienating our neighbors is the LAST thing we need to do and just focus on this as a Devil's advocate...

So.. I wanna keep the Mexicans out.  What do I do?  Build a 700 mile long wall across a border that stretches over 2100 miles?  WHAT?  Maybe they are thinking that a 3rd of the distance will keep out a 3rd more illegal aliens??? LoL I can't get over it.  A 700 mile long wall wouldn't cover the entire border.....what's the point then???

Okay so we put up a wall....even if it covers the ENTIRE border... People walk around it, go under it, go over it.... oooohhh and better yet people bypass it all together because we have these unheard of things called PORTS a.k.a beaches.  

I'm pretty sure that Mexicans are capable of swimming....you know being that they are human like the rest of us and all... would anyone notice "new" Mexicans appearing on the sand at Panama City?  Nah don't think so.  

Our government is willing to spend all of this money to keep out a people who've NEVER EVER commited a SINGLE terrorist attack against us.  People who are just coming here to make a better life for themselves.  Yet Bush wanted to sell our shipping ports to an Arab company DURING a War involving an Arab Nation??  

Us Americans are in the fight of our lives against a supposed incurable disease. STUPIDITY!!!!!!  If I had a nickel for every time Dubya said something stupid, I wouldn't have to worry about him fixing social security... I'd be rich!

Sometimes I think God is just laughing at it, I picture him sittin up there poppin on the news where Bush is making a speech where his english isn't even real english then watches Bush walk off stage with a grin thinking "Yup, Nailed It".... And God just laughs.  That's my new explanation... Why Bush???  Because God was bored lmao!

_________________
[scroll][glow=darkorchid]~I'm the girl your mother warned you about~[/scroll][/glow]

so are you against the potential real border wall, or just the way it's currently being done? I'm confused by your post...

I'm against a wall in any form.  It's just ridiculous, I love how suddenly the Mexicans have magically become the source of all our problems when it use to be the fact that terrorists from the MIDDLE EAST took out many of our citizens.  Anyway what I was trying to convey is that even if I were for it, it wouldn't work at all, it'd just be a huge waste of tax dollars.

_________________
[scroll][glow=darkorchid]~I'm the girl your mother warned you about~[/scroll][/glow]

I know nothing about this type of wall.   Are they actually built in such a way that people can dig under, or climb over them ?   I'd think likely not ?  Dunno.   Seems as though the regions that don't have the wall would be easier to guard.  I assume there's a reason the wall will span 700 miles in a particular area.

I'm not getting into my political views,  just questioning the physical characteristics of what a border wall would be.

Last I heard on this was about a year ago where Schwarzene (SP) objected to the fence or wall..  I haven't seen anything about this 700 mile wall since 2006.

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

A wall is a wall is a wall.  You can't dig so deep so that no one can dig under it, and you can't build it so high as it's impossible to get over it.  Lets say that by some miracle of physics they build such a wall that no one can go over or under... people will swim around it.  There's so much coastline on the Pacific side alone that building the wall is really like throwing a bucket of water into an erupting volcano.  

I don't agree that the Mexicans are such a huge threat to warrant this kind of a response in the first place, so to do it at all really seems ludacris to me.

Anyway assuming that our government knows what they are doing is a huge mistake .  We thought they knew what they were doing when we let them invade Iraq, we thought they knew what they were doing in response to Katrina.  You see the fantastic mess they make of things, amazing they aren't all wearing helmets so as to not injure themselves when undertaking the complex act of walking and chewing gum!

_________________
[scroll][glow=darkorchid]~I'm the girl your mother warned you about~[/scroll][/glow]

Although I am quite capable of discussing these issues in a civil & calm manner,  many get heated discussing political issues.  They can become great sources of passionate ire therefore I'm going to go by past experience and defer offering my opinion in this type of forum on political issues.  

That aside,  I hadn't seen anything regarding that wall this year.

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I say whatever we do, we need to help out as many folks at the same time.  SO,...let's build a big ditch rather than a wall.  We take the dirt from the big ditch and take it to New Orleans to help raise the dikes.  Then we take the extra alligators that are bothering Florida and put them in the ditch.

Everybody's happy!

Kelly

Seriously, it's not the Mexicans or any other group I am against.  It's the "Illegal aliens" regardless from what country.  I'm sick and tired of having to "push 1" to speak English.  I'm tired of having to look forever on any product I pick up to finally find something written in English.

I'm tired of everyone blaming the "President" regardless whether they are Republican OR Democrat when it's actually the Congress and Senate who run the country.  They use the President as a scape goat.  Don't get me wrong.  I have a lot of problems with Bush; but I have more with our Senators and congressman.

If we spent more time on our voting in the right people for those two places and less time squabbling about who to put in the oval office we might get more done.

Let's get judges who will enforce the laws on the books instead of thinking it's their duty to set new law.  The laws are out there to take care of most of our problems if we would only follow and enforce them.

The same people who complain about politicians who take bribes are the same ones who go out Saturday nights and expect the KJ to take a "5" and "bump" them up in rotation.

Kelly

You make a wonderful point Kelly, but the thing is that Congress is weak.  Bush vetos nearly everything that comes across his desk if it wasn't written solely by republicans.  Congress doesn't run the country, both they and Bush are equal by the system of checks and balances.

So the President is to blame, not because we gave him the power to be the one and only leader, but because that is how other nations view him.  Some nations have completely cut off talks where Bush is involved simply because he is.... Bush.  

Other countries also view him as a reflection of ourselves, and I don't know about the rest of you, but that embarrasses me.

Illegal aliens are barely more than an annoyance.  Granted it's illegal, but that still doesn't make them public enemy #1.  The people who've committed the serious crimes i.e. 9/11 weren't illegal aliens .  They were actually here on a visa... legally.  Basically someone used the scare tatics "They'll follow us home" and "We have to know who's in our country" and THAT'S when suddenly everyone was up in arms about illegal immigrants.  Making an enemy of a country that is right next door is just not a good move, it seems like this whole issue is a deterant so as not to have our attention elsewhere.  

Anyway I'd rather have someone who doesn't speak a word of english as opposed to someone who speaks perfect english but intends to blow me up.  What is needed is not to cut ourselves off from the world, which is what we'd have to do to "know who's in our country" what we need is immigration reform, a completely new policy that is discussed over and over again.  One that thought was actually put into and not biase.

And Steven, please know that I wasn't trying to get heated with you.  I never involve anger with politics directed at anyone other than the politicians themselves .  I apologize if I came across that way at all.  And yeah I heard about this wall on C-span about a week ago, my "representatives" were pushing hard for it to be built because it had already passed Congress.  From the sound of it I wanna say that they had already started but something the Mexican government said caused them to halt construction. * Shrug  

Oh to everyone, I fully recommend Tivoing C-span replay the most boring oraters and voila a cure for insomnia .  Becareful though an overdose can lead to brain damage.

_________________
[scroll][glow=darkorchid]~I'm the girl your mother warned you about~[/scroll][/glow]

Lol... Kelly, I agree with your first post:) If only the Rio Grande consisted of swamp water.

Magz... I think you're missing the bigger picture. Not once has any member of our government said "The Mexicans are a bigger issue than Iraq, forget 911 and let's build a wall against the Mexico border"  You're mixing two things that really have nothing to do with each other.

I too think the wall is a dingy idea. I'm sure it would keep them out, atleast many of them. They SNEAK over the border. A wall would be high enough that they wouldn't be able to scale it in any short amount of time... and I'm sure it would be put in with equipment, and would therefore be deep enough that it couldn't be "dug under" in a short amount of time either. As for the cost of it and how our tax dollars would pay for it... well, in all honesty, it would be a small investment compared to the $$ we would save if they were not here illegally.

I don't think anyone (well, except those with prejudice) are wanting them out for the sake of "wanting them out". They are here only because everything is given to them for free. They are illegal, they do not pay taxes, they do not pay for medical (i dunno why, when our government hands them free medical cards anyhow, if they but ask) ... they do not pay car insurance (or get held liable in a court of law for the accidents they cause and leave unpaid) Our taxes are already supporting thousands of them. Surely a 700 foot fence would be cheaper?

A fence is not the way though. There are other means. If they would only force them to become citizens, pay taxes, and be here LEGAL... I think the problem would go away soon.

Many hospitals (especially in CA) have closed because they incure bills that they do not pay. And they can't be forced to pay by collection means, because there is no way to track them through a legal system in the US.  

I live in a HUGE farming valley, some towns close to me are over 50% mexican now. I have seen how they do things. The husband comes here and works illegally (there are many crooked farmers, ranchers, nursery owners, restaurant owners, canneries, etc... who turn a blind eye to the fact that they are illegal... so they can pay cheaper wages), so he pays no taxes. The wife lives with him, goes into the local welfare and tells them her husband is in Mexico, that she came here to start a new life for her children, and she gets a welfare check, free medical, and food stamps. (all paid by.... OUR.... tax money)

It may not be this bad everywhere, but here is an example that chaps my hide. I have a friend, single mom raising 3 kids on her own. She was diagnosed with internal female issues a year ago, and needed surgery because the doctor said it was in a precancerous state. A mexican gal at work told her that she should go to welfare and get medical coverage, and explained how. She did, and she was denied. Because of the fact that Oregon is currently low on state funding. She questioned why her friend was able to have it, and was told that what funding they currently have is "available only to children under 5 and migrant farm workers".  There is also plenty of low income housing subsidies here, that the requirement to live in them is the same, you must be a "migrant farm worker".

THAT is why many people have issues with it. Look up some of the stats... you can google them up on valid websites. The monies lost because of our government paying to aid illegal aliens is ridiculous. If they are legal, and tax paying citizens... that's great. But I guarantee, if it gets to where they HAVE to be legal tax paying citizens to stay here, most of them will choose to go home.

.

_________________
♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

I haven't followed this issue, even back a year ago.

But I'll ask a question rather than give an opinion.  Is the MAIN concern here illegal immigrants,  or potential terrorists entering the US border ?  Does this have more to do with helping to thwart the ease in which terrorists can enter our border ?

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Magz.. It's obvious you don't think too highly of our boy Bush:)  I mean, seriously, it's not all HIS fault. He's just the easiest to blame.

I don't agree with a lot he does, but I will not dis the president of the United States in public whatsoever. He's only a man after all, not a god. He makes bad choices (and really bad speaches, Lmao) just like the rest of us do.

I don't care WHO they put in office next, the same will happen. They will get the blame for EVERYthing that goes awry in America.

As for other countries looking down on all of us, I disagree. I think it looks much worse that so many speak out against him so loudly. He's our president, and wether he's perfect or not, I'll stand behind him as our president until he's replaced. I think we get laughed at a lot because we are not as "united" as we proclaim to be.

.

_________________
♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

Careful about mentioning alligators Kelly.  You'll get Ollie in here complaining about the "liberals" in the "Cruelty ot Alligator Association" petitioning to bring the alligators back to New Orleans where they've established a life for themselves

Oh no..  I see Ollie now !  

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

immigration

iraq

_________________
Join The Karaokle Singers Social Network. Upload Your Music!!

Oh man Ollie,  My eyes are really shot.  I don't have my glasses on, and I was reading that "truth about Iraq" link,  and was trying to figure out why there was a picture of Steve Martin wearing a jacket with that Fox emblem

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

 That is Ollie North...


Link provided by Ollie South....

_________________
Join The Karaokle Singers Social Network. Upload Your Music!!

Yeah,  Haven't really seen North since Desert Storm.  Or am I confused about that too.  Dang,  just got a flashback, he goes back before 91 to the Iran contra stuff.

ADDED IN:

 What was his involvement during desert storm,  News strategist while Shwartzkopf was in charge ?

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

This is interesting.  Any of you politicial historians know who this is ?

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I'm on a polar opposite of you right now Charmin.  I have to disagree with a lot you said.  First let me start with something we do agree on, welfare.  No, I don't believe that illegal immigrants are entitled to anything funded by tax dollars as they don't pay into them.  What I do love is your alternative of making them citizens.  That would solve all the problems, no welfare given out without being paid into, more tax dollars for roads and schools and whatnot.  

I am here to tell you that making them citizens won't make them leave .  I'm Mexican myself, completely on my father's side, and when I lived there all anyone wanted was to be an American.  If you make them citizens, that means they are entitled to minimum wage, couple that with them then paying taxes and they'll be making about the same amount as they did prior to citizenship.  Why would they leave?

What I'm really worried about is your view of Mexicans, it seems like you are a bit jaded towards them.  Please remember that the few don't represent the masses.  For the MOST part, Mexicans are a HARD working people.  Think back, who is it you see always doing manual labor on the side of the road?  LoL You know it's us, you'll see 50 of us climbing out of a VW bug headed to work  

Anyway, I work in a hospital... and please know it's not just Mexicans who don't pay their bills, it's anyone who can't afford insurance, and if they can't afford insurance you know they can't afford to pay the actual bill.  Did you know that just to walk into the ER it's $50 to sign in?  Thats assuming of course that you stay and we make a chart on you.  Hell tylenol is $20 a pill if we give it to you.  Hospitals aren't closing because of illegal immigrants, they are closing because healthcare is just another thing broken in this country.  We're the richest country in the world and yet 50% of our children 2 and younger aren't immunized.  And your friend who could potentially develop malignant cells...I'm so sorry, that's why I'm for universal healthcare... that's what's wrong.. healthcare, it's not the Mexicans.

And as far as me mixing up the 2 issues... no, they haven't "said" immigrants were more of a threat than 9/11, they just show us that they are more important than our troops.  Charmin.. I don't agree with the war AT ALL in real life I'm very active in politics because of this.  The truth remains that we have soldiers over there... do you know they are underfunded?  Oh yeah big time, they don't have the armor plates that are suppose to be on every humvee, the bradleys are breaking down everyday and they can't get replacment parts, they don't have the porceilan plates in their "bulletproof" vests, those are necessary to stop anything above a 9mm, (the insurgents use AK-47s).  So you tell me, would you really spend all that money to build a wall while our soldiers are in dire need of that money?  I don't think you would, yet our government is ready to do it, so you tell me where their priorities lie.




You darned tootin I don't like him .  While he is not SOLELY to blame, he is to blame nonetheless.  His lies caused my husband to put his life on the line.  While there would be no problem with my husband defending our country... he did not do this, he went to Iraq under false pretenses.  It was Bush who said the intelligence was there, it was Bush who issued the ultimatum,"get out now or we come in".  So if he did not lie, then where are the WMDs?

To have flaws is one thing, to commit crimes is another.  I will NEVER stand by a President who has lied about something that caused so many to lose their lives.  I do want to ask you though, were you behind Clinton when he was serviced in the oval office?  I mean he WAS still President then, were you supporting him?  And since when do we claim to be so "united" that we'd follow a moron?  

Hitler was also the "President" of his country whom people supported and followed blindly just for the fact he was the leader... that didn't turn out so well.  We are American.  We do not sit idly by while wrong is being done.  This is what makes us great, we are made of a stock that didn't just follow the leader. "That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government" This is who we are, this is what we are made of.  Don't support ANYONE just because they are in a position of power, if we were just to let them do whatever they wanted.... imagine the horrors that we'd incur.  We the people keep our leaders in check, to NOT speak up against them in my opinion would be more wrong than what the leader had actually done.

_________________
[scroll][glow=darkorchid]~I'm the girl your mother warned you about~[/scroll][/glow]

Not that I agree or disagree with Magz.

But do you know what it says on the Statue of Liberty ?

Do you wish to remove the statue of liberty ?

Was it OK for our great grandparents to defect and sneak into this country, our grandparents, and MUCH of our ancestry ?  Can you see how this can be viewed as discrimination considering most of us ARE in fact offspring of immigrants both legal, and MANY illegal that became citizens once over here ?  Sure the country might need to clamp down on certain things, we've always IMHO "spread ourselves thin" being places that don't really want us, however that doesn't supercede a very important right granted to all, The statue of liberty clearly reads

"Give me your tired, your poor,  your huddled masses longing to be free"

and who are YOU or I to wish to change that (before answering READ ON)

You are simplifying a situation that's been permissible by this charitable country for a LONG LONG time, and why ?  Because we, the uninvited immigrants SCREWED the Native Americans, who if given the same liberty you speak of us having now, well, we'd never likely be here either !   This great nation was STOLEN. 

We now live in a "melting pot",  in fact look what we did to the native americans who actually SHOULD have specific rights IMHO, if you are going to follow this line of thought,  What is the nationality of the ancestry that REALLY has exclusive rights to the United States ?

Do you think there are PURE-blooded Americans that genuinely own this country ?
If-so,  are you one who has a right to shut the borders ?
We pay taxes because we live in a country where our ancestors were allowed to escape to, AND take advantage of the free life by working their a$$es off, they came here with just the shirts on their back, and many of THESE individuals "who escaped to this country" are still the hard working ethical people. Is it wrong that Mexican immigrants are willing to take jobs that will hire them REGARDLESS of pay ?
Let's not put the cart before the horse assuming the problem is businesses that wish to cut corners and hire hard-working people for less. My great-grandparents were really no different than many of the mexican people wishing to live a better life. At least in principle.

So while some agree "Take down the Statue of Liberty because charity begins at home, and we are once again acting foolishly squandering funds while falling apart here in the homeland",  many of our grandparents will claim that such behaviour is nothing new,  in fact it's a freedom this great nation is based upon, and there is really no such thing as a non-native American "Pure blooded American", further more this is really the United States of Immigrants that wanted to live the free life and were afforded the opportunity to do-so", USA is just some funny acronymn..  Hence, none have a right to really descriminate in the "Land of the free", despite it even falling into dire-straits.  

Only ones who should have a right to vote on this issue would be "Native Americans".


Food for thought.

Now keep in mind,  I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you, but during past discussions on this issue I've had,  this is a viable issue that's come up. And, assuming it to be the case,  what right do *I*,  (a grandchild of illegal Lithuanian immigrants that came to this country thru Cuba,  and German Immigrants that came into this country to escape the Hitler regime and would've been killed if turned away) to say  "Don't allow a particular nationality of people into this country" ?
Assuming such people risked dying in hopes of living the life WE are afforded, and really have no less of a right to.

Golden Rule  "Do unto others" also might apply here.

Just a thought on how this argument pans out.

What makes a person worthy of being an "American" ?  What constitutes "American" mentality ?  Simply being born and raised in America ?   I seriously hope not, because too many that have been born and raised here don't really know what "fighting to be free" means, it's the parents and grandparents that fought and made this country a super-power REGARDLESS of how they got here !!  Or should "American" be somebody who values freedom, hard work, and wishes to live in a nation that's a super-power and protect such established freedoms despite HOW and when they got here ? One thing MOST immigrants that struggled to get here know is HOW hard they fought to get here, and why, so they value that.  For this reason they do not readily forget WHY they wished to fight so hard to become Americans.  They contrast it to what they left, and are willing to fight to preserve it !

This was the case with MOST of our great great, and great grandparents !  We aren't for the most part "All American".

One thing I'd like to add however that is my belief.  I have great respect for the Native Americans, and feel HORRIBLE about what was done to so many. And THIS is something I wish not to forget when trying to sort out "IS America really MINE"

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".