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Couldn't make it anymore clearer then that........

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Sweet Little Me In Karaokeland........

[quote="LondonLive @ Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:25 am"] The general rule of thumb for powering speakers is to have about twice the power available than the speaker is rated at.

I kinda thought that was pretty much to the point too

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Quickness of mind will deceive the eye

I totally disagree with this statement.

EV testing proceedure:

We expect each system to survive 8 hours continuous application of rated power without failure of any component or permanent change in performance. The 300 watt specification is based on filtered random noise, which is fed to the speaker for an extended time (more than 8 hours). power handling tests are meaningful to the extent that the nature of the test signal relates to actual use; our research and experience has shown this spectrum to resemble the actual power density in many types of music.

Random noise testing is used because, like real music and speech program material, it contains many frequencies simultaneously. Low frequencies, which can cause large excursions of the woofer suspension, are present as well as mid-bass frequencies which contribute mainly to woofer voice coil heating. Thus the woofer is tested for both mechanical fatique and voice coil overheating. Concurrently, the tweeter is tested for both mechanical and thermal failure.

Whereas the power handling specification described above has defined the long term application of power, the speaker is capable of handling 4 times its rated power for short duration peaks. In other words, if the average input power level were 300 watts, then the speaker could handle peak power inputs on the order of 1200 watts. These short duration peaks are a part of music and are present in our power test signal.

The approach I described is not “necessary”, but is the way I’ve decided to configure my home system for the following reasons:

1) It keeps the vocals out of thousands of dollars of home audio gear.  I use decent, but expendable, Infinity home speakers for the vocals, and use a separate, inexpensive Audiosource amp.  This way, I minimize the financial risk of damaging my home audio gear with live vocals.  

I already owned the Infinity speakers and Audiosource amp before getting into Karaoke, so they were just redeployed for Karaoke vocals.  The Infinity’s sit on top of my Polk LS90 towers (which are playing the music), so vocals and music still sound like they’re coming from a single source.

2) A side benefit is the ability to independently adjust the music level/mix with a remote control.  This is convenient since there is significant music level variation between Karaoke discs, and even between tracks on a given disc.

Anyway, I’m not saying that this is “the” way to do it, but is works well for me and gives me peace of mind that I’m not out much money if vocals damage something.  If vocals do ever damage the Infinity’s or Audiosource amp, I’ll replace them with PA gear.

Problem is there really isn't a way to "dumb it down". The real question is, are you interested in top quality sound? If not, then don't worry about it. If you are interested, take the time to learn a little, and you will be way ahead of others who just buy name, convenience or price.

This subject is much more complicated than this thread has touched on. I don't consider myself an expert by any means. I do think I know a little more than the average person, but, frankly, my only intent was to share that little bit with those who are interested. Over the past few years, the improvements to the sound quality in my shows has been not only a source of pride, but has increased the number of jobs and the size of the crowds I get. There are too many KJ's who just turn the bass and the reverb up on their poor quality systems and never touch another knob or buy a better piece of equipment. I am on the other side of the spectrum. I hope than my info is helpful to others...

I did that for a while on my system. I had an amp for music and a powered mixer for the vocals.

I'm not sure about the specs on your speakers and amps, but you will get clean sound, because the music will not distort the vocals. If the speakers and amp aren't rated for vocals, I would be careful tho.

Let me preface this post by saying this is a very good thread and I love new posters with good info and I like the ways that karaoke systems are just as sophisticated or even more than bands. Good posts guys !!!! Now Im gonna put in my 2 cents.

I am an engineer I have designed and maintained some of the most sophisticated systems known From tv broadcast to missle systems. Audio video and rf.... Audio other than room acoustics is very simple It goes from the extreme of 20 cycles (when I started off in this game they were cycles not hertz  LMAO ) to 20 kilocycles (kc)..

In the olden days design (slide rules) was very crude at best tubes But biasing was possible Next came transistors Bias was met with base bias voltage divider bias or wrap around bias depending upon requirements.  When integrated circuits hit the scene such as op-amps 1% tolerance with low wattage 1% resistors was obtainible. Circuits designed for worst case parameters and using grade a components the failure rate became obscure. (satellites)

When somebody says an amp or speaker is rated for vocals I dont have a clue what you are talking about The vocal range is a portion of the audio range. If you are having trouble mixing vocals with music then you should invest in a vocal compressor and audio procs (processors) such as the BBE 362 and Aphex 104 or 204 The Aphex better known for the big bottom can pick vocals up out of the mud.  

Speaker placement and sound distribution is very critical. Any pro or soundman will tell you It takes talent to bring out the best in a mediocre system And at crowd level noise and everybody rockin' they are not sitting there evaluating the system!!! To be honest all they want is F$#$#@@ bass  LOL

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Does anybody here rotate their bass once a year for diaphragm strain???

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[quote="karyoker @ Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:27 pm"]When somebody says an amp or speaker is rated for vocals I dont have a clue what you are talking about The vocal range is a portion of the audio range. If you are having trouble mixing vocals with music then you should invest in a vocal compressor and audio procs (processors) such as the BBE 362 and Aphex 104 or 204 The Aphex better known for the big bottom can pick vocals up out of the mud.quote]

I've never heard "rated for vocals" pertaining to speakers or amps...microphones yeah  :D

Don't get me wrong, I agree with what you are saying...

I struggle a bit with adding processors until you really have a handle on your basic sound system and it's performance. Sonic maximizers are great when used correctly, but all too often if the system is not that good in the first place, the result is even worse. People have a tendency to overuse this stuff and then it really starts to sound bad.

As far as phase compensation, many good quality speakers have built in phase correction circuits...the Sonic Maximizer is somewhat moot then, other than a little bass boost or brightening...I question whether or not this can be accomplished with good equalization, and then what good is a maximizer?

The Aphex 104 is a nice piece to fatten sound, but again you need a good base sound system in the first place.

Too often people buy all this fancy "bolt on" stuff only to be disapointed with the result, because the sound system itself is at fault.

We have a library from the 30's to to present. I can go from Hank Thompson  Blackboard Of My Heart to Martina McBride any song... The old song is fully processed the newer song does not make any difference because it is fully processed already and the proc makes no  difference. We are not hitting the procs with unity gain -6 db at most.

I have spent years fine tuning a sound system and I doubt very seriously if there is a system on this forum that even comes close to this system. And if you want to hear it I will tell you where to come and might even buy you the motel room..

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Dennis I tried to send you a pm.. every now and then I sit here and drink beer and yank everbody's chain Why get so serious? Welcome to the forum

AND london you too!!!

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I'm still alive, just looking over my shoulder a bit, looks like I might have survived my first scrape with some one that didn't appreciate my attempt at help. It is obvious that there is more than one view on the subject of sound quality. I wish we would have had all this knowledge at our finger tips like we do now waaaay back in the days of kerosene powered amplifiers and tape driven echo machines, it was all trial and error then. That would account for the shelves full of equipment in my basement that didn't work out for one reason or another. It is nice to know that their are some that do want to learn as much as possible, I know I do. Perhaps maybe their could be a techie room or something where gear heads could get together and bounce idea's off one another and not risk offending anyone. Keep smiling guys, Peace. (I haven't said that since the 60's  LOL )

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Quickness of mind will deceive the eye

Not sure how to do that...I didn't get the PM...let me know what to do.

On other messages, I explained that due to the fact that I'm getting older, I had to down size my system. In doing so it was nessesary to get rid of equipment that had served me well over the years. I decided that I needed to go to powered speakers, and spent a considerable amount of time researching products to try and find something that would give me a quality sound and still be easy to move and set-up.

It was difficult for me to shell out the $$ to buy the EV powered speakers. Once I made the decision it became easier.

I took the speakers home, plugged them into my system, turned the EQ flat and sat with my jaw hanging down when this perfect sound came out. The quality and engineering of the product is something I wanted to share with others, particularly those who want a great sound in a relatively portable system. I understand that there are better systems out there, and I am not trying to compete for best system. If there is a competition for this, I would win "best portable system", hands down.

I compared the EV's to the Mackie 450's and JBL Eons, the two most popular portable speakers, and in my opinion there is no comparision (not to offend any of you who have Mackies or JBL's). This is my opinion, but it is also the opinion of many if not most professional sound people as well.

There are a million different speakers on the market. Most are total junk as the market has been saturated with tons of Chinese "rip off" products. It's easy to get fooled, when the only specs are related to power handling, and people have come to believe that this is how you should measure whether the speaker will meet your requirement. Almost all of the "rip offs" claim big watts numbers, but they almost alway relate to "peak" or "surge" power...never true RMS. Using this as a measure of whether a speaker will meet your requirements is only the first pitfall in the process.

I have taken many of these "rip off" speakers apart, and they usually contain speakers with small magnets and 30 gauge wire. The crossovers look like they came out of a computer speaker.

What I and London were trying to do was explain that there are more important things to look at when picking a speaker. I have found that SPL and horn projection are two things that are most critical, as explained in previous posts.

One of the best things about a forum like this is that we can share ideas. The fact that some of us are into the specs, details and engineering should not be a detriment, but an asset.

I apologize if I got too technical.

I'm not sure but I think to look at PM's you just go to the "new messages" listed under "Members Area" there on the left of the screen, then I think just check your "In Box" Something like that anyway. I'll try sending one see if it works. Doesn't anyone use the "chat feature" on this site?

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Quickness of mind will deceive the eye

On a lighter note...can you say Les Paul?

Not only can I say it Dennis, I got one, 1977 to be exact, made right here in good ole Kalamazoo not one of them there imitations they've been making in Nashville since 1980 I think.

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Quickness of mind will deceive the eye

London,

Great guitar...I was thinking about the tape echo though when I said Les Paul. Saw him on Mike Douglas back in 63' or 64' with a little black box plugged into his guitar. He played a rythm, then a lead, then some more stuff and it all came back out of that little box. He had a miniature multi-track recorder in 1963! A genius in my view. He is the father of multi-track.

Dennis one of the reasons I use mackie compact mixers and jbl eons is their tech support.. I just replaced a sider in a dfx12 ordered from mackie $9 and change. Their tech support will jaw at ya for hours if ya want I wont buy anything that the manu wont supply the schematics or parts list

I havnt heard an EV speaker for years but you got me curious now!!!

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I think Mackie has the best mixers. The pro speakers are good also. The 450's are great speakers, but the EV's kick their butt. I was a little suprised myself, in that everyone say's the Mackies are the best...plus they ask big money for them. I was a little reluctant because of the 12" speaker as opposed to a 15"

The Eons are good and I actually got to run a pair on a DJ job I did for a friend. I have nothing against JBL, and like a lot of their stuff. I thought the Eons sounded pretty good, although a little hollow. I think it's the plastic...not sure though.

Once I did a side by side comparison, I could tell the difference right away. At the time I was concerned about projection, and the key is the horn. The EV's, sounded much clearer and carried the clear sound a longer distance. The main room I playe is 60' and the sound at that distance is almost as loud and clear as it is 5' away. My other speakers dropped off at half that distance. The other thing I liked was the almost flat response curve of the EV's. This gives me a good baseline to EQ for most any venue. That was a problem in th past, that was bothersome.

This is a bit subjective, and I would think that the Mackies and JBL's would probably be just as good, because the specs say they should be. I am real critical of a "clean" sound. I love to fatten it up too, and will get down with the best of them, but I love a clean line to work from. It just seems like you have a wider window to work with when the sound has a clean baseline.

Just my opinion.