Karaoke Forums

Currently, I have everthing going thru my Behringer mixer --> Sony HT Amp --> HT Speakers.  I am looking to buy a PA speaker for the vocal.  Do I need to buy a pair, or 1 speaker is enough for vocal?  I also have another AMP I can use for the vocal.  Should I left the music on my HT AMP and use the other AMP for the vocal?  Thanks.

Looks like you already got most everything for a karaoke pa minus the speakers.  Use the mixer for the music & vocals, run them through the other amp & get a set of PA speakers.

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Thanks.  If my AMP says it is 380W, do I have to choose a speaker higher than that, or really doesn't matter.  Any budget good speakers recommendation?  Thanks.

Speakers must be at least the same wattage as the amp or a little higher. Definately not less.

Without knowing the precise spec, I can't tell you. 380W isn't the kind of spec that seems reasonable. You are looking for the watts RMS per channel spec, and high-end home theater amps usually are about 110W/channel RMS. If your amp is less than that, probably you can't find a reasonable PA speaker.

If it is 110W/channel RMS, then you could use the MTX TP112, which I used (and still do to this day). I have since bought a Behringer PMH-3000 and B1520 speakerws, but I still use the MTX speakers with the PMH-3000 for smaller rooms.

I just want to start out by saying hi to everyone, I've been reading several posts and ran across this one and felt compelled to put in my two cents as I'd hate to have anyone led astray. In the response to the question of how much power to use. I assure you that far more speakers have been ruined from lack of power than to much power. Although I am new to this forum ( and it does seem to be a nice forum full of very good information), I have been in the Live sound business for almost forty years now. The general rule of thumb for powering speakers is to have about twice the power available than the speaker is rated at. This helps avoid clipping which is a speakers number one enemy. A clipped sine wave will cause a speaker to overheat in the voice coil and lead to it's early demise. I hope I have been of some help. Now I shall go back to reading all the usefull information I am finding here.

Well you have to look at the rating as well.  The amp should at least push as much as the speakers 'Program' power rating - which is generally, but not always double the RMS rating.  There are usually 3 ratings on speakers (more in the PA field), RMS/Program/Peak.  Some speakers I have seen only list a peak rating - generally cheaper speakers, in which the program rating would 'tend' to be half of that peak rating.  Ohms plays a factor in this as well.

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What make/model is the amp?  It says 380 watts where, on the back - this is more than likely the power it draws & not what it pushes to the speakers.

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Thats why I used the term "rule of thumb" There are so many variables that enter the equation It would almost take a book to take everything into consideration.
"Power" for all practical purposes is Energy Per Time, it is measured in Watts. Power delivered to a load (speaker)  is normally determined by dividing the Voltage (V) squared by Impedance (Z)
               V2
POWER = -----            "average power"  = 1:1
                Z              "Program power"  = 2:1
                                " Peak Power"       =4:1 roughly
We all have to work within our budgets so basically do the best you can with what you got, but do keep one thing in mind the SPL of a speaker can dramatically change how much power is required. for every 3db of gain a speaker has it doubles its volume. So that bargain speaker say rated at 85db would require four times more power than a speaker rated at 97db to attain the same volume. You may save a few dollars on the speaker but it will cost more for the amplifier to drive it adequately. And it goes on and on. As the saying goes "You get what you pay for":(
Hope all goes well for you. For the audio in my show I use a Yamaha EMX 5000 12 channel powered mixing board rated @ 500 watts per side @ 4ohms driving two JBL SP 225-6. I have all the head room I need and can attain a very nice full range sound without the worry of clipping.

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Quickness of mind will deceive the eye

I have a similar situation.  Here's what I do for my home Karaoke.

Vocals: Mics -> Behringer 1002FX mixer -> 100 watt/ch amp -> Infinity speakers

Music: Digital coax output from CDG/DVD player -> Pioneer Elite home theater receiver -> Polk speakers

I like fact that this keeps the vocals out of my Pioneer receiver and Polk speakers and lessens the load on all equipment.  Also, it's nice to be able to adjust the music level with the Pioneer's remote.

In your situation, you could buy a pair of PA speakers for the vocals, and have a similar set-up, since you already have a mixer and separate amp.  I'm considering replacing the Infinity's with PA speakers down the road, but they're working fine for now.

Assuming you don't crank the volume to extreme levels, with the high efficiency of PA speakers and the fact that this is home Karaoke, I would think that 80-100 watt/ch would be fine for vocals.

London,

One of the most important and commonly overlooked aspects of a sound system is speaker efficiency, the measure of SPL (sound pressure level). This measurement is the dB (decibels) of the speaker.

Many people make this one critical purchase (speakers) by “word of mouth”…i.e; the Mackies or JBL’s are good. Another common mistake is to buy speakers by size and power rating, or by trying to match speaker power rating to the amplifier. None of these approaches are even remotely correct.

SPL (dB) should be the first specification that a person looks at when buying speakers. This is even more important than the power of your amplifier. How much power you need is really secondary to the speaker efficiency (SPL), projection and in some respects product reputation.

That is why I always recommend Electro Voice, because they have some of the best engineered, highest efficiency, and bullet proof products on the market.

An example of what this means is the venue where I had to mount speakers above the crowd in order to overcome the room shape and ceiling configuration. The EV speakers I chose have 12” drivers, are rated for 100 watts RMS and have an SPL of 100 dB. I drive these with a powered mixer that is 75 watts RMS per channel (yeah, go ahead and laugh). I never have to raise the volume above 75%, and have perfect sound and projection in a difficult room and it is plenty loud, with plenty of headroom. Even with a full house, it’s no problem. Prior to this, I was running speakers with an SPL of 91 dB and an amp with 300 watts RMS per channel, and I couldn’t get enough volume with the amp maxed out.

If you calculate this out, you will understand the reason for this. The difference in SPL is 9 dB, which is huge. For every 3 db you need to double your amplifier power. This essentially says that I would need 400 watts per channel to get the same output with the less efficient speakers. Add to this that the EV’s have horns that project better than the other speakers, and that explains why I need so little power to get the sound I need.

Subsequently, I bought a pair of SXa250 powered EV’s, with 400 watt built in amplifiers. These speakers have an SPL measurement of 126db. This is 35db different than my old speakers. The difference is, if I calculated this right, that I would need an amp of over 150,000 watts to get to the same sound level of my EV’s driven at 300 watts or 75% power.

Sound engineers understand all this, us regular guys and gals, really need to be more knowledgeable in this critical aspect of putting a sound system together. I spent a lot of time studying, asking questions and comparing products before I figured it out. In the past, I was never quite satisfied with my sound, now I smile and say “That was the best purchase I ever made”, when talking about my speakers.

Should I separate the music and vocal to different set of speakers?  Why it is not recommend to run vocal thru the HT amp?  Thanks.

Dennis,

Thats exactly what I was getting at. When I'm choosing a speaker the first stat I check is the SPL then of course the range, the ohms and a few other stats I'm picky about. One in particular is the crossover point of the passives. I feel a vast majority of factory passives are to low for my tastes, even though in recent years I have seen them rise considerably. In any case the  JBL 225-6 is rated @ SPL of 136,  a very efficient speaker. Keep in mind I didn't buy them for Karaoke but they are the most portable speaker I have. I'd rather spend time getting stats and figures than spend money trying to correct a problem. I've already got a basement full of equipment that perhaps wasn't what I needed in the first place. We aren't in Kansas anymore Auntie Em.  :ideagrin:

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Quickness of mind will deceive the eye

I'm sorry Ultraming, kinda got off on a little tech stuff with Dennis. I'm no expert on a HT type amp other than I own one. I do know that the type of amp in a normal HT receiver wasn't designed to sing through. Was this for home use? As far as separate speakers go, that shouldn't be necessary if your speakers are decent. There are several lower cost speakers that could do the job I would think. Peavey PR12's or PR15's come to mind.

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Quickness of mind will deceive the eye

London,

I was agreeing with you totally in my post, I guess I fogot to say that your comments were right on.

I also have a basement full of equipment that didn't work, wasn't right and generally is junk. Some of it I don't think I could get 12 cents for it's so bad.

I wish I would have understood this 10 years ago...I though I knew enough. Boy was I wrong. The SXa250 EV's cost me $1400 for the pair new (which is a decent price), but I would have never spent that much a few years ago on a set of speakers. I could have saved twice that if I would have just gone there in the first place.

Funny, when I was in the sound equipment store, the guys know me there. They showed me the Mackie and JBL powered speakers and some cheap Tapco's supposedly designed by Mackie, and I said, let me hear the EV's. So I tested them and said, "that's what I want." they said to me "We knew you would get there eventually..."

I totally agree with your comment on crossovers. In passive speakers, I prefer 3-ways with a mid range, because of the crappy crossovers in most 2 ways.

The dreaded crossover, I have developed such a hatred to the factory ones that I took the time to learn how to build my own and set them for what I wanted them to be.

Ah yes i'm sure the people in the music store knows you by your first name. Kinda ironic that you picked the EV,s  I believe they make them over in Bucanon Michigan which is about  50 miles southeast of here. They build some quility equipment.

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Quickness of mind will deceive the eye

I already decided on the EV before I walked into the store. I just wanted to verify the choice. I have been pretty much sold on Electro Voice going back to my band days. I still have a few EVM12L's laying around. Best raw speaker ever made.

Once I went through the experience of "fixing" the sound in the place I spoke about earlier by putting in EV's, and hearing the result, which was light years ahead of what I had in there, I was totally sold...the only thing that stopped me before was the $$$

Once I bit the bullet so to speak...it was a no brainer.

Your right about Buchanon...cept the headquarters is here in Minnesota now.

Nothing against JBL's by the way...the Eon powered speakers just weren't my cup of tea. I sort of went with a highbread powered speaker in that they are plywood cabinets instead of plastic...still easy enough to lift and carry, with a mellow, more "classic" sound. I find the plastics to be a little tinny and hollow.

The JBL 225-6 that you have at 118 lbs would never work for an old man like me...I need stuff I can carry myself. Those are great speakers tho.

I personally prefer Peavey products, and that includes their line of speaker cabs. I highly recommend peavey's Black Widow, and Scorpion line of speakers for many reasons. But foremost because you can replace their baskets in the field. It takes about 15 minutes and your back in business up and running. Also Peavey is very truthful about their specs. Now as far as some of your other points, i think "LondonLive" has it real close. Generally, if you drive speakers near their power limit, you can expect failures after awhile...that just goes with the territory. It's really hard to come up with meaningful data unless you know how the speaker is going to be used, as program material varies greatly with the type of material and the way that it's played. Laboratory tests, while giving meaningful engineering guidelines, seldom represent real-world application. But let's just say you knew what the RMS rating of the speakers really was. Okay, then how would you know what (RMS power) your amp was actually putting out? If you're in the lab, and using continuous tones, that's one thing, but that's not the way we use speakers, is it? There is no such thing as RMS power. It's average power. A continuous power rating on a speaker means that it can handle a certain amount of average power indefinitely. It can handle more power, but for a shorter amount of time. There's no simple conversion between the formulas, and it does tend to get confusing for sure. While all the suggestions to you may be helpful, the only real way of addressing what cabs to purchase, is to take the enviornment where you will be performing into account. And go from there. Also portability is certainly a point to consider. Perhaps one of the new Neno speaker cabs would work out for you. Make sure they are big enough to handle your amps output, and size of your club. But in any event, once you've purchased the speakers you want to use...remember you are stuck with them.

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Sweet Little Me In Karaokeland........

Funny thing is you guys are all talking about specs & technical data on a pro level when more than likely 70-80% of the people here don't give a crap or even know what you are talking about.  You can still educate while "dumbing it down" for those whoe don't have 40 years of live sound experience & technical degrees to know the formula to find the power rating from a speaker rated at 4 ohms with an amp pushing 300 watts per channel into parallel cabinets made of Birch wood.  Don't make people feel stupid with all the knowledge you guys display.  WHich is why many people just ask for recommendations.

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[shadow=deepskyblue]I'm impressed, I've never met such a small mind inside such a big head before.[/shadow]