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Do any of you use higher level (pro) vocal effects for karaoke?

I've posted some info on other threads about the TC Helicon and Tc Electronics products. I'm interested in comments from KJ's on the use of effects in shows.

The TC Helicon Voice One that I have in my rack is an amazing piece:

http://www.tc-helicon.tc/VoiceOne

It has a huge amount of capability that I haven't even learned how to use. TC Helicon equipment is usually reserved for the production studio, but with improved processing speed, they have developed "live" vocal effects boxes that are capable of all the same studio effects used by many of the top artists.

I use it to "fatten" the vocals, and ad depth, resonance and rock growl and rip.

It can provide some realistic and very natural effects to the voice. The processing is done using the actual input voice, so all inflection and style is retained in the processed output. There is no synthesized or fake sound that comes out.

Most of the time, very suttle effects are all that is needed to enhance the vocal quality.

The only down side that I have found is that the unit is quite complicated to operate real time. It takes a bit to program. Using presets is simple, and there are a bunch of them pre-programed (100). I also built a number of pre-sets that I use myself and add to singers who ask. Once they try it, they want it running all the time.

This is quite different than the normal FX boxes we are all used to...a huge technology leap.

I'm interested in your comments.

I bought the voiceworks By TC Helicon for my show 4 years ago, and ended up putting it in my home rack. It is a good effect, and I will use it for myself. But it if far too much setup required to use it in a show. causes delsys in the singing.

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I understand the set-up issue. That's why I use pre-sets.

As far as the delay, how many effects are you trying to add? If you add too much on one setting you will get a slight processing delay. I generally only have one or two effects on at a time, and there is no noticable delay.

It is almost impossible to apply FX to singers that you are not familiar with. We use shure mics and for singers that dont know mic tecniques it is totally impossible. I have a few singers I have recorded and with sonar3 have applied every FX possible to their vocal. (I wish I had this capabilty and timelive)  We would lay down a track and listen to it. They would hone their mic tecniques and siging tecniques. This is the best way to learn FX for live shows.  The good singeras  do not need muvh FX at live shows Then you have those that know mic tecniques but cant hear or lack talent These you can help a lot and over a period of time improve drastically. Then you have those that want hold ther mic at their belly button. I will go over to their table and casually coach them on mics Some appreciate it and try and I will continue the process. The rest I just blow off..

The singers I am familar with I have tweaked before they even hit the stage (maybe more bass etc) When a song starts my finger is automatically on the mic fader. If I cant get a decent level Ill turn the music down. Then I might adjust the treble or bass Those that dont hold a 58 close it is automattic to turn up the bass on the mic strip.If you dont then a singer struggles tenses up and even gets worse.

I recently repaced the 266 xl with a lexicn 550 and only got to use it at one show. I thought I was fully retired but there are venus now that want good systems So you really cant retire a good system. We are alternating this gig with one of my best friends another Kj and he is doing July. Anyway I only tried 2 presets male vocal and female vocal. This very well could be the best addition to the system In the insert (sries FX) even with a full wet mix it is not radicl and you cant tell FX are being applied But bypass it and you cantell Or even better leave it on male vocal and Patti gives me wierd wat the *** goin on? Its amazing. There are a few other prests I want to experiment with such as chorus and plate. It has 64 progammable slots so I could envision progamming for regular singers then just dial them up.

At my age I will never learn how to totally use this unit not unless we have some of the weekend jam and tracking sessions like we used to have. However when you develop a system like this to do it justice and the singers justice should have a separte soundman. And have the host hgandling the publc and public relationds aspect

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I have to disagree. I am what I would consider a good singer, and the effects on the VoiceOne improve my presentation. You should go to the web link and see what this unit can do. This is not a typical effects box. The rasp and growl for rock works for many different songs, and works well on men and women. I have singers that request that I put the effect on when they sing. These are not overpowering effects. They add subtle nuances, rasp, whisper, growl, resonance, etc. These are true voice effects not reberb and vibrato.

Many professional singers use TC Helicon effects for live performances. They are a benchmark in studios.

As far as novice singers who don't know how to use a mic in the first place, I wouldn't consider addiing effects, with the exception of reverb.

Seriously, you should take a look at the Voice One. It's difficult to truely explain what these units can do.

The Lexicon 550 is similar to the TC Electronics M350 unit that I use strictly for reverb. It's nothing like the Voice One.

http://www.tcelectronic.com/M350

Not sure about needing an extra soundman. Really, I set up pre-sets, and don't need to do anything but select them and maybe adjust the effects knob on my mixer. You do have to remember to turn them off though...

Oh I agree I didnt say it wouldnt help If I had my drutherts Id just as soon just run the sound. But when you are running the show you dont have the time other than presets,.




Yea Id like to try that  :D

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Yeah, It would be cool to use all of the capabilities, but it just takes too much time. Like the pitch change. there is a button that will key correct a singer who's singing off key. It sounds like a cool feature, but you have to tell it what key and how much to correct. While in most cases you know what the key is, by the time you get all of the info in, the song is half over. Then, if you change the key using a step program, your screwed.

The presets are pretty flexible, although it takes some time to build your own. I have one for Elvis, Joe Cocker, Willie Nelson (puts a nasal resonance in there), and a few others. Probably took a few hours to get each one where I wanted it.

The technology is pretty cool, tho.

Elvis,

When I first read this response I was thinking that the VoiceWorks was similar to the VoiceOne. I then went back an looked and VoiceWorks is primarily a harmony box. When I was looking at these a couple of years ago I talked to the techs at TC Helicon, and they suggested that the VoiceWorks would not be a good choice for live "wet" sound. The reason is that to build the harmonies takes quite a bit of processing power, and ultimately delay in the playback. This is worse as you "dial" up the effect. As you know, not only are there a multitude of effect settings that you can combine, but you can increase the amount of each effect. I found even on the VoiceOne, that as I increased the amount (intensity) past about 50% the delay started to become noticable. For most effects, it's not nessesary to push them past 50%

What were you trying to use the VoiceWorks for? Did you contact the techs at TC Helicon for help?

I just use an old Alesis Midiverb 3 in conjunction with the built in reverb on the CFX (which will be going bye bye in a couple months for a new 1642vlz3).  When the CFX goes, I have an old Lexicon MPX100 that will go in.  All have nice presets that works well, the Midiverb I use primarily for delay only, I use the CFX for the reverbs.  Can be set up to run them in parallel (dual effects) or run a series like a delay trail into the reverb.
I run effects to where you can't actually hear them, but you definitely know if they weren't there.  I hate places that you go to & the effects are almost as loud as the vocals themselves.

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That's the way they should be...subtle. When you switch them off you can tell, but just barely.

Lonnie I still use the microverb4 and the dfx12. For years I run the efx2 send at unity on the mics and music Then I started turning the FX down on the music strips  and tweaking more for vocals Where do you set yours?

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On the MV I run the Input about 12-1 o'clock, the mix & output wide open.

On the board, there is a channel stip send - set about 9 oclock.  A main send set about 12 oclock (unity).  I do not use the built in returns, prefer to run the output of the MV3 back into a channel, then assign it it's own sub group bus so the channel gains/sliders run at unity & I can control the actual volume at the bus.
I rarely use effects on the music unless it's just an grossly dry recording.  I've ran into this one just about every manufacturer to date.  Especially with 80's songs which were known for their reverb arena settings, some of the manus just record their stuff & don't put none of the original nuances into the mix.  Adding a little reverb on these dry recordings can help quite a bit making them a little more tolerable.

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Lonny,

Love the Mackie mixers...wondering what you need 16 channels for tho  :D

1 channel for Wireless Mic not used on a regular basis, but is hooked up for people that can't access the stage ie wheel chairs or crutches, etc...
3 channels for Corded Mics - 2 on stage, 1 for host/more than 2 people
1 channel for Headset mic (other hosts', I don't use it)
3 channels used as effects returns - 1 for Midiverb, 2 for Lexicon as it's a dual channel.
2 channels for dj computer - uses stereo channel.
2 channels for karaoke computer - uses stereo channel
4 channels for 2 regular players (kept on premises for laserdiscs that still get used regularaly & backup for the cdgs) - uses stereo channels

My 12 channel board is just too small anymore, i'm combining outputs into 1 just to make it all work as it stands.  Would rather not do that.  The 1604 was going to my first choice, but it's geared more for live & recording plus i'd have to manipulate 2 faders per player/computer as opposed to 1 fader per stereo channel on the 1642.

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Wow!

I rarely run more than 3 mics. I loop my effects boxes through each other and run them through the effects bus. Music all comes from the computer. So I'm using only 4 channels. I have a 12 channel mixer and have a bunch of empty slots. Most mixers only have like half or less for mics (mine only has 4 mic channels), so you need the 16 just to get your mics.

That Mackie is a really good mixer. Not cheap either. Does that have FX? It looks like there is FX, but they don't talk about it in the specs.

The CFX12 has effects, & it is still a great board mines just getting tired, it's been in service almost 7 years now, 7 nights a week.

The 1642 does not have any effects, hence why I will be adding the Lexicon in - it's replaceing the built on the CFX12 I have now.  
I also prefer better control of my sound, the smaller boards usually don't have what I want ie swept mids on the mic channels, 4 band eq on the stereo channels, multiple sends for multiple effects plus still be able to send a separate monitor mix.  Running the effect back into the channels gives me individual control on everything from the board, no need to go to each effect to try & dial it all in.  I can add eq to the effects, run them to a monitor (rare except for those who really think they sound better with tons of verb) without messing up the main mix, run them straight effects or run them into each other for a multi layer effect.  Many more oprions retunring the effect into a channel over the send/rtn loop.  I prefer the 4 buss so I can control the multiple mics overall volume with 1 fader, or all the music channels with 2.  Have the effect on another so I can turn them off in a second.
Also most of the smaller boards don't have inserts for individual channel processing like compressors/limiters or anything else like that.
Here is my system actually.  A couple of the crossovers & 1 mic some lighting & the computers aren't updated, but everything else is there.
http://lonmanproductions.com/tbequipment.html

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I just bought a TC Electronic M350.  Not as high tech as the Voiceworks stuff, but it blows away the built in FX in either of my mixers (Mackie DFX12 or Yamaha MG12/4CFX).

All I can say is that I can't believe that I waited so long to upgrade my FX.

Lonnie that gives me an idea.. Thinking about putting a welcome page like that in the books with a tour of the system. I havnt had a rules page in for a long time but thinking about that also.

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Lonny,

That system is cool. I hope you don't have to haul all that stuff every night tho. If I had one steady gig I could deal with it, but I been downsizing so my old body can take it...if you know what I mean. I'm sort of on this path to "essentials only", or how can I get the best sound out of the least amount of equipment.

Two years ago I had a five foot rack with 2 amps and all of my other stuff, computer, disk players, effects, mixer, etc. The cover turned into a table that mounted to the side of the rack. I had four sets of mains and a monitor. I just couldn't deal with moving all of that stuff all the time.

I got things down to a 12 space roller rack and one set of speakers last year. Problem was, the rack still weighed 130 lbs with the amps. I threw my back out lifting it into the truck one night and was down for a month. That was it for me. Nothing over 50lbs.

That's when I decided to buy the EV powered speakers. I moved my effects, mixer and power strip to a 6 space roller rack with a drawer(about 35lbs), and my computer and TFT flat screen server tray into a 4 space roller rack (30 lbs). The heaviest thing is the speakers (48 lbs), but I got roller cases for them and they slide in and out of the truck. Still have to lift them onto the stands tho...

Thing is I don't think I've sacrificed that much, and set-up and tear down is a snap. I have had nothing but positive comments on the sound quality...both from new people and those that heard my old system.

I always like have the extra stuff, but my body just couldn't take it anymore.

i'm with dennis on this one.  i use vox-fx on every singer whether they know what they're doing or not.  i use the alesis nanoverb (very inexpensive and easy to use) and depending on the singer and the song style i change between the hall fx, the room fx, delay, and plates.  it will defintely add something to singers who aren't quite where you'd like them to be.

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