Karaoke Forums

the lawmakers can and WILL. You can biyatch about it all you want, and that's YOUR right as an American... the right of free speech. However, there's still responsibilities and laws in this country, and if they deem to write a law saying a child can't sing in public, no matter how you disagree with it, it's a LAW. There's a way to go about rescinding an unjust law. Take it up with your local congressman or senators.

As much as I hate it, the artists DO have a right to control what they allow to be reproduced. I can't blame them in the slightest!

As a member of the VFW I have taken it up with my congressman have you?

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Fence sitter? I gave it a ride every chance I got and if I got bucked off I rode again  

I formed my self and ego with real life challenges and did not have to post in forums and prove trivial facts to find out who I was or what I believe in... I might sit on the bar stool for awhile When I stand up get ready!!!!

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Me & babs are rolling on the floor giggling our (@$%&#!) off  LMAO Are you?

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Who wrote this Ollie,  It's pretty clever.    But just don't hold your breath awaiting some New Years resolution such as this

(come to think of it,  sounds like something I myself might've typed )  Especially that initial part regarding "balance".

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Ninety percent of the people in this world are unaware whats's happening Nine percent know but are afraid of interfering The remaining one percent are making it happen..

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Now how do we bring this back to Karaoke omitting the politics ?  



I also had this question:




Again, I NEVER intended on this thread leading to the substantiation or continuation of ongoing opinions, debates, or individuals political views.  Sorry, but I made an initial statement and THAT was the sole purpose of this thread,  NOTHING guised.
Sorry to my buddies that have political views, and sorry to those who wish to avoid seeing the pontification of political views !

I *THOUGHT* original Karaoke WAS perfectly legal in the US assuming the individual artists allowed their work to be used for such purposes.  I was wrong.  I based this on a particular CAVS group of individually owned units I got my exposure to Karaoke on.   There ARE NOT many options for Karaoke in my location.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Kappy I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you believe or believed that karaoke was using the original music and and putting the lyrics on it.  If so, this is incorrect except for the discs previously mentioned (BTW the Motown discs are only a few I believe, and not the whole Motown library).  One would think the labels would also press karaoke versions when they put their products on the market but they don't.  Why? I'm not sure but most likely not a big enough market to do so.  This is why Sound Choice et al reproduce the music (after obtaining the proper licencing) and add the lyrics with the better manufacturers using excellent studio musicians.  Hopefully this will clear things up

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Yes Tim,  I now understand !





Tim, Since I've known you folks for awhile, let me explain exactly how I formulated my erroneous understanding. (I now have a clear understanding, but allow me to try to clarify in detail what came to be *MY* erroneous beliefs regarding Karaoke in the US., based on experience from two -same original ownership- area bars that had Karaoke and also CAVS units -the owner was a CAVS dealer).

    What *MY* experience is,  and the taped CAVS backing I have (unbeknownst to me at the time of taping and participating of course, AND NEVER as a commercial user but as a guy (patron) in a smaller room of a HUGE night-club privately trying to learn how to sing several nights a week, perhaps as an accessory to illegal activity) *IS* Boston singing the backing to "Man I'll never be", THIS IS Brad Depp, and Tom Scholz (guitars) playing the exact studio instrument parts as the album I have, and NOT digitally replicated backing but instead somehow omitting Depps lead vocals.. meaning, Guitar uses his Power Soak, and has the EXACT same nuances, LEAD vocals were somehow edited and omitted, VERY VERY unlikely "covered" versions I have, as I did head-to-heads and listened to piano sound quality, and intricacies of the piano part played as well as to other signature styles that generally WOULD NOT be picked up by many cover bands that do cover Boston, I have heard a few. The same is true with numerous other tapes I have (WITH a few noticeable, and of course a considerable number of noticeable MIDI duplicated exceptions).  While MOST will likely say :the likeness fooled him:, until you HEAR what I have DO NOT assume you are correct.  I KNOW these bands.  (Remember, I am NOT saying I SHOULD have these, I am saying I didn't know in 2002 and when the bar closed in early '03 that this was illegal Karaoke in the United States), and as much as I hate to admit it, these are VERY well produced backings, that were LOADS of fun to sing with !  Very precise, and fabulous for ROCK genre !

HENCE,  it was my understanding from *MY* limited experience with Karaoke that what is obviously illegal in the United States *WAS ALWAYS* legal, meaning original bands with somehow expertly omitted vocals were permissible at the discretion of the individual artists.  My understanding is obviously wrong, and what I was exposed to was illegal Karaoke in the United States, whether knowingly, OR unknowingly.  At times renditions are digitally copied, at OTHER times I haven't a clue how they are doing this.  I have listened to Soundchoice renditions in SS, and they are VERY noticeably digitally done copies for the most part, or a couple musicians performing songs using instruments such as Korg Tritans, or Roland synthesis as opposed to Depp playing Piano, and actual Tom Scholz power soaks that exist on MY taped versions, vocals are not somebody trying to sing in Brad Depps style, these ARE Brad Depps vocal harmonies,AND, on some ballads such as Buffet, and JT renditions with Linda Ronstadt, steel guitar on certain ballads, and actual piano nuances are the original artists..  While these MIGHT of course be fabulously done cover versions, I (for instance) have several Guess Who Karaoke renditions around,  I can tell the difference between a Soundchoice, and recent legal covered version, and Guess Who backing.  Similarly Scorpions,  Winds of Change IS Winds of CHange, SAME amount of Reverberation, same whistling, Flying V guitar nuances, etc.. (At least on these CAVS versions). Only evidence I can furnish would involve uploading, or playing tape on a telephone since I have free outgoing calling, BUT, I think as astounded as I am based upon what I am hearing that so few of you are aware of the amount of originals that DO exist, I also assumed differently because so much of this ( and I now know that this was likely bootlegged Karaoke ) and originals edited for such purposes, but it of course likely WAS obtained from over-seas. This material DOES exist, in fact on classic rock and at least OLDER CAVS JB's around here it was prevalent.

You are correct Tim,  it became MY understanding based upon abundance, that what I now know to be Illegal Karaoke (from you guys recently) was never illegal.  But also, assuming it is Tim,  Earth, WInd, and Fire isn't Motown,  Listen to the rendition I posted,  is that digitally redone ?  Upon listening I can see how this MIGHT be digitally emulated off've a recording, but I don't know, or IS that original EW&F ?  All cases of Soundchoice renditions I hear in SS ARE noticeably covered with a few exceptions that are "iffy".  I just never listened closely until very recently in SS, and like I stated, I believed Karaoke in the United States was available as Original, AND covered depending on whatever, because I do know as fact considerable amount of what *I* have is VERY unlikely covered, but on the same tapes some renditions noticeably are, many are VERY unlikely covered, few cover bands would replicate extremely specific sig style in all cases within a song !

Because my initial Karaoke exposure was with the same CAVS loaded units, and I never was a Karaoke junky, but just a person who participated in Karaoke for the first time in 2002 in hopes of trying to learn how to sing, but never to the extent of likely *any* in here, I formed an  incorrect assumption about ALL karaoke  !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

While this can likely fool some, and I always assumed this to BE EW&F, and I admit assuming THIS particular EW&F rendition is digitally cloned it's quite good given cymbals, compressed bass (which of course MIGHT be left as analog), and trumpet timbre coverage,  AND if it's a cover band, it's well done, can somebody explain how this has been done ?  or is this EW&F ?  I realize if a dissect this the percussion might be a Roland sequencer, or something similar to the Boss DR-5, but if you do a head-to-head with the EW&F rendition, on the album the percussion is very similar.

http://www.singersshowcase.com/song.php ... act2=52992

2007-05-25
Genre:  R&B
Original Artist:  Earth Wind & Fire
Additional Info:  Disc Mfg:    Disc #:  
Description:  Hi all, doing this one for Lisa and all of the EW&F fans out there. Thanks to all who listen.. Crooner  
Overall Rank:  Rank Unavailable
Total Comments:  15

Now while I know The Crooner and he's a DAMN good vocalist singing this Karaoke rendition, is the backing digitally covered ?  Is this a coverband, or is this EW&F ?  It's tough to tell !   EW&F to my knowledge was never Motown, or am I wrong ?

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

There is one certain brand of a certain Martina McBride when played loud and with cans I can hear her singing. Which was a major achievement because hers has many and heavy FX Another is Picture. It depends upon the singers timbre and how much Fx applied to the vocals One method they use is lets say you want to do Johnny Cash You eliminate the vocals with the regular process then hire a drummer and bass player to dub over. Uh Oh Im giving away secrets

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*THAT* I certainly believe Ollie,  but that still would be using the ORIGINAL work without permission assuming (for example) in the EW&F example they omitted Drums and used a sequencer, kept bass, constantly edited tempo, and digitalized horns, even if ALL vocals including the backing were done by the Karaoke singer.  If the original creation is used in the work without permission, can it be done, it's STILL the original.   I was thinking along your lines,  that they doctor up the original, but that would STILL be using the original !!

Assuming some smart-@$$ed engineer is dubbing himself into the mix playing cowbell and using a percussion clap-track, it's STILL the original being used without permission. The original EW&F rendition sounds VERY similar, I've heard them live (opened for them years back) and though live the sound is not crisp sounding, it never would sound that way recorded in a studio.  AND,  if ever there was a band that can fool the listener regarding actual percussion and rhythm machine it's EW&F percussion, they are just THAT good, EXTREMELY tight in their day !

Is it possible I'm hearing the original creation run thru 32bit digital synthesis ? Vocals then removed, and the composition is maintaining an analog bass line ? Guitar style, is really no different than EW&F even playing this live.  Drums however might be digitalized..  Or is this EW&F ?

(to make things easier,  click the SS link I gave once, that will bring you into the SS menu, assuming you are a member, back out, and click again which will bring you directly to the song).  While I heard a few tweaks that MIGHT be digital keys added, that might also be my imagination, most parts sound original here.

CAVS is an asian company, correct ?  I wonder if late 80's and early 90's laws were different, and some people didn't adhere to the Digital Millennium act around 1998.
Since nobody took me up on my "bet" a few days back, no more bet !  Folks had two days

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

WITH permission FROM a band such as EW&F to use a particular song for purposes of "Karaoke" *IS* original karaoke of specific works actually :illegal: in the US ? I don't know.



November 6, 2006
Karaoke and Compulsory Licenses
Glen Whitman wonders why karaoke manufacturers record their own versions of hit songs rather than taking the originals and stripping out the vocals. The result is a nice summary of the law of copyright as it applies to covers and compulsory licensing. Glen’s conclusion:

Here’s your choice as a karaoke producer: You can use your own musicians and sound technicians to recreate the work, and then pay a few cents per song (multiplied by the number of copies made). Or you can use the original track and strip out the vocals; but in order to do so, you must obtain permission from the copyright owner, with all the transaction costs and probably higher price that would entail.
Is this system efficient? On the one hand, it’s clearly a waste of resources to hire musicians and sound technicians to reproduce works that already exist. In addition, the perceived quality will generally be lower than the original, since karaoke singers generally want something as close to the original as possible. On the other hand, extending the property rule to cover indirect duplication would create a hold-out problem: copyright owners could demand high prices for the right to create karaoke tracks. Real resources would be wasted on the negotiation process; worse, if negotiations ever broke down, some great songs might never get converted to karaoke form.

Assuming the owner of Copyright expresses permission for his work to be used for Karaoke purposes, *CAN'T* a rendition off've the original work be done ?  Would this be outside of


While this would likely be illegal in cases of compilation discs such as a disc containing EW&F September along with OTHER work subject to stricter laws, what if the pretty independent title holders such as Madonna, Cheryl Crowe, and a few others that might be at liberty to authorize use of their work do-so (and I'm not saying these individuals can, I suppose they are now signed, although they usually conduct much of their own business term) ?  Again, I don't know.  While I see many companies stating this is illegal, is it illegal for THEM to do, or for ANYONE and EVERYONE to do ?  JUst wondering.. No biggie,  I'll shutup after this because my intent IS NOT to step on toes.. Might EW&F and just a few others authorized the use of some of their work for CD-G use assuming they are now independent agents and holders of THEIR work  given a certain time period lapsing ?

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

In order to 'strip' out the the original vocals, they would need the most perfect conditions for how the original was recorded.  Unless they had access to the original multitrack tapes (which many bands/studios don't necessarily keep once they have their final product mastered), there isn't much they can do to get the vocals out any better than any of us can with todays vocal eliminators.  It will give a better result - provided they got good musicians - to recreate & re-engineer/record their own version, and in Sound Choice's case most of the time, create an actual ending of the song - creating more of a live feel, instead of just having it fade out while you sing when the song is done.

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Cavs is out of South Korea Using their products  I added to my social security income and payed for a top notch system UH oh IM A CRIMINAL!!

In fact I have used their tracks learning how to apply FX When you apply different Fx to an original track and it doesnt make much difference then you learn what effects they are applying to the vocals (original recording) and backing.. And let me tell you what they do apply Fx to their version. Sc esp...

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Makes sense Lonnie,  I'm trying to find that post again to reference the exact article (as opposed to just posting part of it).. You know what's interesting though, Jian mentioned his version of the Stones in some cases are original, as are some of the stones I heard.  Is it possible that on some of the older Classic rock, and 60's and 70's material *since almost all I like is from this era* with the analog tapes someplace the vocal track can be successfully panned out, and with the help of digital editing touched up to eliminate even more of that track ?  Additionally label holders, and initial contracts give differing rights in the :classic day: than todays digital laws regarding conversion of original work by artist permission ?  I don't know.  I do know SOME of what I have has got to be original, what I don't know is how and why. There's also a chance of course some of these early 70's one-hit wonders aren't protected such as Henry Gross - "Shannon",  While Climax "I love you" is original it MIGHT not be a protected or renewed copyright, or it might be as simple as the original title holders saying "You want this ?  Pay me this !",  I'm a hasbeen and can use 50K..  ???

I agree with you Lonnie,  it seems a HECK of a lot easier to cover a song as opposed to going thru hell and back to strip and touch up the original, but some of these are original and I haven't a clue how they do it   Unless of course they have a means of panning out a track.  Digitally filtering particular frequencies if they stand-alone pretty much, and than midi dubbing such needed parts in ??

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

First of all Kappy the main contributers to CAVS are DK, Chartbuster, Panorama or Steller (I can't remember), and some others.  I'm sure others out there can contribute.  I've heard CAVS and to me it's inferior to a CDG player.  They skip, balk, etc.  If you can show pictures of the various title screens, chances are we could tell you who produced the songs.  Some of the manufacturers have excelent talent including their singers on the instructional tracks.  Some you can tell the difference, others you can't, yet they are studio singers.

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Have any examples on which songs you feel is real - manufacturers & disc numbers?  
I remember quite a while back someone thought on the Singers Showcase someone submitted an original song - not their karaoke rendition - as their own, turns out this guy just REALLY sounded like the original, but if you listened closely, you could tell that it wasn't the original.  The music turned out to be a Chartbuster disc & was very close to the original, although if you really disected it, you could hear the difference musically as well.

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Lonnie,  I taped the songs to cassette off've the cassette feature on the CAVS JB-199 for home practice use, these were not CD-G's,  but the CAVS jukebox drive.

As I stated the only reference I can inquire about that I heard on SS that comes close is the following, and when listened to VERY closely this might've been digitally doctored up.. Dunno (below EW&F),  also add Jee's (Kiss from a Rose) from 3-06..
I have NO CD-G's.  I've never heard CD-G's that come this close. Only thing I can currently give an example of that's somewhat close would be this.. and even this is NOT as close as what I have on tape from a few years back off've the JB-199

http://www.singersshowcase.com/song.php ... act2=52992

2007-05-25
Genre:  R&B
Original Artist:  Earth Wind & Fire
Additional Info:  Disc Mfg:    Disc #:  
Description:  Hi all, doing this one for Lisa and all of the EW&F fans out there. Thanks to all who listen.. Crooner  
Overall Rank:  Rank Unavailable
Total Comments:  15

(clicking link once brings you into showcase, exiting showcase and clicking again should bring you to THIS song)

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Tim,

  Some of the versions on this jukebox stunk,  naturally I avoided those.  Some had to be boot-legged originals from overseas, or at one time legit or maybe not, I have NO clue !  I know what you are saying, some stunk, but this wasn't CD-G, just the harddrive

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".