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I made the incorrect assumption that like CAVS Jukebox technology (at least CAVS late 90's up til 2003),  some of Soundchoice used A LOT of original artists compositions which it digitally edited or doctored up.  I made an assumption that most Karaoke Technology was "the same", and would have to be in order to compete, hence I thought with licensing within the United States IT WAS legal for a company to edit an original song for Karaoke purposes.  All I've been exposed to has been The CAVS Jukebox which has A LOT of non-covered but touched-up or edited originals, hence, since this is my only exposure to Karaoke, I made extremely broad generlizations regarding this type technology being legal with a BMG license (of sorts), and thought the Harry Fox license and other types of licensing gave companies to sell original doctored compositions of backings.  I all along assumed that in most cases original artists had little objection to their songs being edited for Karaoke purposes since I also assumed THEY either could not prevent it due to areas of Copyright law that might've come before such consideration and weren't written in, or some type of loophole.. I assumed MOST or their beneficiaries received royalties off their work directly touched up for Karaoke use, just as they would with radio station airplay.

I'm sorry, I didn't know any better !!  My tapes taped off've a CAVS jukebox for homepractice are mostly actual artists, or maybe digital recreations emulating classic rock parts, Funk, R&B, and ballad, with the lead track missing it might very well be tougher to tell..  I assumed this to be legal, and I assumed Soundchoice was the same way.

My ONLY experience being with CAVS is the perspective I was speaking from ! Never paid attention to Soundchoice versions.

I wonder if around the time of the digital milleniun act the bar I went to (and got my Karaoke exposure at) was supposed to give up commercial use of older technology which might've at some point been "original" material since CAVS is asian, and this individual was just CAVS..Perhaps these jukeboxes came preloaded with actual artist recreations for Karaoke use in the 1990's ?   Well, although the bar (and I loved the place) closed 4-2003, for over a year I was singing in a little side-room trying to teach myself using this one jukebox, the KJ in the main area used a CAVS JB rack system (same selection) because on Sunday nights Freddie Jackson, and Soul stuff WAS the original like Delfonic, Stylistics, Smokey Robinson <-- but he's Motown so perhaps even other companies have his original backing..  The owner also had a large area mobile service and he sold CAVS systems.  I'm not saying this should have been, I'm not saying otherwise.. What I am saying is that I had no knowledge of Karaoke legalities, business aspects during that period, so none of this even occurred to me.  Since that time, I carried my assumption forward !

I'm also assuming that CAVS either was forced to stop using such technology because upon entering Keyword searches I see "In the style of the original composition" whatever that means, and I'm certain unless digitally recreated using advanced technology I WOULD in fact recognise cover versions of most songs I grew up with.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

A good studio band is worth their weight in gold.  The soundtracks of movies and tv, the mood music so to say is all done by studio musicians.  These professional musicians are quite adept to play anything from Bach to Rock and anything in-between.  Sound Choice has excellent musicians, Chartbusters are pretty good but not quite rockers though some of those are excellent.  In Canada Karaokemaker and Sing King are excellent, while Gamesman can be hit and miss.  In the UK STTW and Zoom have good studio musicians.  Some manufacturers use midi.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

True, but of course some movies get permission to use the original work, and pay royalties for such use.  The studios have budgets of millions of dollars and to my knowledge (at least they did) pay artists royalties for use of original work in certain cases. Of course in these cases the work isn't altered.



    I've done session work.  Thing is, I'd be able to tell the difference between Beatlemania or even Liverpool (Toronta cover band around the time of Blushing Brides) backing and the original Beatles and Stones versions.  These renditions I have (at least of *MY* favorite songs) are either replicated digitally from the original tracks editing out lead vocals, or tracks where vocals were panned out, but these are the originals, however noticeably soundchoice backing isn't original..

Regarding the Earth Wind and Fire backing, if you listened to that, is that digitally recreated ? or EW&F ?  Reason I'm wondering is to my knowledge EW&F were never under Motown.  At least I don't think they were.. Might be wrong. Originally I assumed based on style they were however (at least in my other thread), that backing is meticulously done !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

So what is the process.  Rather than a company such as sounchoice just paying a larger distributer of edited material for karaoke purposes, soundchoice must have their own studio and arrange for their own bands, have their own recording equipment, and mass produce their own work and STILL pay royalties to the original licensee of the original copyrighted material ????  What's the process ?

Assuming this to be the case NO WONDER people are emphatic that such companies get fair pay in order to stay in business, that's a tremendous cost to a company !!

I don't think most know the process behind Karaoke CD-G creation.. What's entitled, or who pays for what !

From where I was viewing this, I thought a few huge corporations did the studio work off've originals or in some cases had their own bands to cut this format, and companies such as Sounchoice etc decided what already created versions they would buy in bulk, and pass on for play, but the adding of graphics, and rendition of music was done at large and small studios alike were all this was prepared to get shipped from larger distributors to resellers or retailers. I thought Soundchoice and these companies were retailers.. Assuming such songs, whether original, or cover were all options for large retailers and such companies had options in accordance to what the sellers of this material provided and ALSO paid licenses for, so this was basically a second string of royalty pay by time things got to Soundchoice. All this just built up...Soundchoice pays to Sony studios, or some huge industry who does all this work and mails it out in bulk...  The Assumption being very few artists, or owners of Copyright minded whether their music went to CD-G, or CD original use and this was all legal within the US depending on type license and copyright paid for by the redistributors (who were soundchoice, CAVS, etc etc) to the manufacturers who of course had to pay huge royalties for graphic AND music editing purposes. Obviously I thought Soundchoice, CAVS, and Karaoke CD-G sellers were just retailers, and nothing more. Redistributors.

What is the chain of events that go into the making of a Karaoke CD-G

Who records and edits the music ? Who presses the music ? who adds the graphics, who packages and distributes, who retails ?  How does this change ?  Who oversee's what areas ?

I'm wondering if most that purchase CD-G's have a clue what goes into the process of their production for Karaoke purposes ?  I don't even know how a studio band would record these.  Just going direct and editing out the lead vocalist ?

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Well they do have their own studio, have access to studio musicians of all calibres (cheaper than hiring bands although they may if they know of good cover bands), with having their own studio, yes they have their own recording & mastering equipment - i've talked with BC about what they use before & while he asks that it not be made public, it is a full blown digital studio - although you can see some of it on their own myspace page.  http://myspace.com/soundchoice.  Then on top of that they have to do all the sync ups of the words - TRY to make them as accurate as possible.  This doesn't include the licensing that they need originally to do it in the first place.

A good cover band or studio musicians specialize in trying to make the music sound as close to the original as possible - I know of a couple bands that if you didn't know you'd SWEAR they were the original, karaoke is the same way, maybe not overseas but over here.  There are a couple of lines that do use original music, but it's not the norm.  Majority of companies create their own - the better ones using real instruments & musicians, the not so good using computer/midi.

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Stephen, I don't know if anyone else will answer this before I get done but here goes, this is assuming the karaoke manufacturer is trying to do this legally. first they contact Harry Fox or whoever is in charge of the mechanical licensing( sheet music) This is pretty much a compulsory license and only has to be paid for. Then they have to go to publisher or copyright holders and agree on an amount for the synch licensing, which at this time can be refused by anyone of the copyright holders or a price agreed upon by all parties then the karaoke co. has to pay in advace for the number of copies it wants, whether they sell or not, Both SC and Stellar have their own studios and musicians. They make their version and usually file a copy and the fee with the copyright dept. At this time neither SC or Stellar will make a version unless all copyright holders agree, there was a time when they thought if the major copyright holder agreed they didn't need all the copright holders, Hence many lawsuites.

Also if you here a flute melody line on a karaoke song you can pretty much be assured it is a DK version, that was kind of their trademark.

Thank you both.  I tried to look up the whole production process of a Karaoke CD-G from customer all the way back to where and how music is made for Karaoke purposes and YES.. I live in the United States, I wish to know what is and is not legal in the United States.  I wonder if more actually KNEW of the arduous process and money these companies THEMSELVES have to spend to form a Karaoke CD-G such as

Look into licensing--->pay musicians-->pay engineers--->Artistic layout CD and synch graphics with music---> press and manufacturer package and display their OWN products---- advertise their own products and pay accordingly---->act as their own retailer and stockhouse and finally ship and deal with CS

More would be A LOT more sympathetic and not feel so dispassionate regarding NOT supporting this type company. This is a VERY costly process !  Averaged out, they ARE NOT making the profit margin I assumed they'd make by any stretch of ones imagination.  My guess is too few really know what goes  into the making of a Karaoke CD-G, and the payout to obtain THEIR OWN licensing, artists, engineers, graphic designers, advertisers, customer service reps, and just their equipment and operating costs.. This is HUGE !!!

Thanks for the link Lonnie, I tried looking up Soundchoice in hopes of finding out just who they are, how big they are, ALL they encompass, and outside of Soundchoice online, and their promo page (which looked almost like Ace Karaokes page with hats and stuff for sale) (as well as their bboard) I just couldn't figure out how self-contained these companies are in the overall scheme of production of a Karaoke CD-G.  

My guess is FEW know the process of what goes into the making of a CD-G. I didn't.  How it differs from the company that sells the *drive* already loaded with songs that aren't properly licensed, WHO these outfits are that do this, and intricacies of ways Karaoke music is produced legally and illegally, also what the public is doing when they don't support the honest manufacturers etc..  I admit, I never had a clue as to HOW much goes into making a CD-G.  It'd be nice if there were some references where all could get a concept of how this works in the United States, where the cost lies, the breakdown, and why it has to be this way in the United States, Why they SHOULD support venues within the United States, and WHY so many operating legit businesses are annoyed at those who are hurting companies by not supporting these companies with very costly operating expenses that benefit the activities they work, or enjoy participating in.  WHO is getting screwed when people cheat and don't get music legitimately.  For me knowing WHY I am doing something wrong, and how I am hurting another individual is a much more effective means of my understanding why something is wrong.  If I know I AM hurting a company in doing or not doing something, I am less apt to do the wrong thing.  Prior to today, I thought ALL these names were pretty much on a level playing field. Obviously they are not !

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

There were several other that did as well, DK just seemed more prevalent.

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Right,  this is what I'm trying to learn about right now,  It appears that the Harry Fox mechanical license is just a type of payment to a company that acts as a go between for the original copyright license holder, and the person who wishes to produce copies of their work.  That seems to be the first compulsory license ?  What other licenses are needed ?  You said something about synch licensing ??  How about graphics ?  In this case royalties are paid on a percentage of gross sales basis ?

This is what I'm looking for actually,  something like their Mission Statement
http://www.soundchoice.com/about.htm

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

The sync license is the graphics.

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Lonnie, is right the synch license is for the graphics, there are some intersting things about the synch license. it is not a compulsory license and has to be negotiated with the copyright holders or their agents. And we all have heard of artists who now refuse to let their works out for karaoke, this is how they do that, If an agreement is reached by all parties the karaoke mfg. then has to decide how many cdg's it wants to print and has to pay in advance for the number. If they guess to high they may sit forever if the guess too low, they may not get permission to repress the cdg or the price may change.  And you have to do this for every song on that cdg. Also a lot of the licensing is both disc and track specific and cannot be used on any other disc or track. Now for the interesting part of the synch license. It is the same license that is required to synch words to mouths for movies. Which is why you can not make a copy even for personal use, same as you are not allowed to copy a movie for personal use. We don't have to go into the legal stuff again and those of you that don't want to believe this, it's ok. This is also where IP Justice research has dropped the ball, It doesn't take into consideration the graphics and the synch licensing, It treats a cdg as an audio works not an audio-visual. IP Justice also doesn't address the issue of trademark infringement when you put SC, Stellar, or Chartbusters logo on a screen without their permission. One more thought CB also has a recording studio which is Big Momma studios in Tenn. They were actually a recording studio that got in the karaoke business because they already had the studio.

Naturally after reading about this process, current Copyright laws certainly do not appear to take into consideration difficulty, expense, and instability involved (for a company such as Soundchoice) in the Karaoke CD-G process. The way a process is viewed or understood seems to be evolving slower than shifts in technology.

What seems unfortuneate for a company such as Soundchoice is that from it's inception (1985) to my understanding (I might be totally off but at least I won't be making further incorrect assumptions assuming I am and state this) it is TOTALLY dependant on what might be a "Karaoke fad" for it's survival. It appears in order to cater to such an activity the operating, and business expenses up front are extremely high meaning these two brothers that started this company needed A LOT of capital.  My concern for companies such as this and again, so many businesses that evolve to cater to trend, is that when alcohol and bar-related establishments take the hits they've been taking roughly since about 1985 (DUI Laws, and generally very strict alcohol laws, even seemingly extraneous things such as economy slumps, gasoline costs, social aspects that affect areas to a lesser degree such AIDS, date-rape, and now indoor clean-air amended act, you name it) even without such catalysts for change, trends change in entertainment.  How can the small guy support such a business when the small guy is finding himself out've work ?

Cell phone jingles of course sounds like a good idea, working with movie tracks too, however in a short time it seems my guess that Soundchoice will NOT have Karaoke to rely on to keep it affloat.  HOPEFULLY it will, but given the advent of evolutions in technology, and costs of shifting it's means to suit an everchanging market and trend up front,  it needs to be VERY creative and either create marketability for itself in a changing unstable and tenuous area assuming its going to cater to bar entertainment for primary revenue.

Meaning another problem for such companies given advances in technology even includes (and YES, I KNOW this is illegal for such applications but for purposes of example only bare with me) do-it-yourself affordable home technology such as ability for everybody to copy on their own in time.

Not an easy thing for such a company IMHO.

JMO, I don't know.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

You know, you could get around the whole synch license thing by not using the CDG format.  So long as the graphics and music files are completely independent of each other, I don't see how you could call them synchronized, just playing at the same time.  Just a thought.

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Okay, who took my pants?

Actually some of us do that exweedfarmer. But what I do is totally antiquated in terms of what KJ's would be able to do, in fact it's even more antiquated than Mr T's Sing-Along  (I use tapes and lyrics). I only do this because I'm a musician and it's actually easier than reading scrolling lyrics to set with song time signature assuming I'm familiar with the basics of the song phrasing.. OF course this isn't an option for KJ's UNLESS as you say, there's some way (maybe with the advent of computer karaoke to separate the sources) ???    Karaoke CD-G format is actually for those with less musical experience (or familiarity with certain songs, at least I think??) because when I practice I use printed lyrics along with backing tracks, it's MUCH easier for home applications in *MY* particular case.  While this wouldn't work for KJ's, for home use it certain can suffice !  Assuming the person is familiar with song tempo and phrasing beforehand of course.  Basically just a CD/media player that handles other formats in this case can suffice too of course.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Exactly Lonnie, especially when an important track is omitted such as the lead vocal track.  You lose a strong reference for a particular signature style when hearing the song performed cover, sometimes even original.  Similarly I've heard pro-bands not yet warmed up and have sworn, "That's not CCR", CCR is MUCH better than that.  Yet I was wrong.  To me *THIS* is what is most embarrassing as a musician.  Sometimes being fooled by top-notch clone bands.  Especially when a non-musician gives you "that look", implying..

"You call yourself a WHAT" ??

Totally humiliating

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Exweed, if you are using printed lyrics, the licence still has to be paid.  It's like using sheet music.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Tim,

    Good point, but it would no longer be a synch license, would it be ?  Although true, it'd be a Copyright license needed none-the-less, assuming lyrcis are even printed for distribution ?  I have no clue what the difference in cost or complexity is, except from what I'm hearing about the Synch license a major downfall is that it provides little future stability for the holder of such a license since ALL production of a compilation might be contingent on one fickle artist, but there's also something I'm reading about that might be able to over-ride certain denied cases such as a "Compulsory" license (but this is stated in context of CD use, NOT CD-G, and this is where things get tough)  

This is interesting, It gives some of the Mechanical license terms.
(but again, this is home recording and production CD format only)
http://emusician.com/mag/emusic_show_license/




It does appear that Copyright law enforcement REALLY is lagging behind the fast transitioning between media type given technological changes.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

If you want to get technical synchronization requires a master oscillator and timing pulses as in radars or  clock pulses as in computers.  You can take another mp3 file and name it the same as the cdg file and the music will play We have done it with drunks and rolled on the floor. Also I can import the the mp3 into something like sonar and shift the time reference of the start of the audio in reference to the graphics. Also I can chop out portions and the cdg file wont know the difference This is not true sunc.  One can also delete the silence at the start or end and shorten the song. It is more of a timing or phase issue than synchronization. If you hit a cue ball and knock the eight ball in are the two balls in sync? No because the eight ball can follow a path on it's own according to impact, english  and many other factors that dont depend on the sync process.

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Ollie,  You are a friend, and I DON'T want to set you off because I know VERY well how you feel about what I'm about to say. I really do, you don't even need to elaborate   BUT

No court if it comes down to burdon of proof is going to pull out an oscilliscope to check to see whether an individual should've applied for the synch license.  BUT, I might VERY well be wrong, since I don't know this as fact.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Kappy if this this forum could provide a forum and unbiased discussion that concentrates on KJ's problems instead of being so anti-kj as most trolls do, we might have a chance of formulating viable solutions and save and promote this fledgling industry. I have seen rules and regs totally destroy many enterprises and they certainly did not do anything for pool leagues or dart leagues. They killed them.

One day the fad will be over and all I can say is they will have to be issued tin beaks and then they can come out here and peck (@$%&#!) with the rest of us honest hard working chickens.

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