Karaoke Forums

May I weigh in on the illegal karaoke topic, please?

I work for an international society, we have members in 139 countries around the world.  As the keeper of the database, it is my responsibility to know what the laws are regarding exporting information to outside countries.  We have members in Iraq.  Someone want to take a stab at interpreting the laws on exporting educational materials to that country?  Didn't think so.

The United States of America, as a standard, makes laws very convoluted.  If they weren't lawyers wouldn't be in such high demand.  That's what lawyers do, interpret the law.  As a community of KJ's who are we to sit here and tell each other what the laws are.  We are simply doing our best to intrepret laws that the lawmakers can't at this point.  If these karaoke copyright laws were cut and dried (as many of us try to convince the rest of us they are), we would all be able to clearly color inside the lines and identify those who stray outside them.

These manufacturers are wanting to maximize profits the same as we are trying to run decent shows.  Let it be known these manufacturers are as guilty as anyone when it comes to infringement (SC8125 anyone?).  

I run a format shifted show.  I've spent countless hours ripping my CDGs to MP3 to ad convenience to my shows.  I get paid the going rate for my po dunk area, and have carved myself quite the niche.  I'm not going back to discs unless mandated, and to date I haven't seen anyone bite the dust for running a computerized show.  Anyone?  The gal in Burnsville, MN was selling loaded harddrives that's why she got busted.  That's just plain stupid.

Let's let the lawyers haggle over the fine print.  If you think you're in the right by spinning your discs and buying replacements, go with it.  If you think there's enough wiggle room in the copyright laws to allow for format shifting, like I do, go with it.  Don't beat each other up over it ... because until a landmark ruling comes down (and I don't know of one to date), that's what the lawyers want from us.  It keeps them busy.

8125 was an authorized disc when it first came out, the publishers had given permission then retracted after it's release due to Don Henley & Glenn Frey refusal.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I am holding my mouth and biting my tongue...someone needs to superglue my fingers together so I can't type... [glow=darkred]AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! [/glow]
My previous posts on this issue are my reply to this particular post...all of them except the one where I said I would be nice...once.

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Keep it legal!!!

You have a lot of passion about a topic you can do little or nothing about Ms. Revenge.  I am all for the first amendment, but people have to know when enough is enough and quit  filling the media with baseless opinions and arguments that do little more than stress the world.

Thanks for the clarification on the Eagles disc Lonman.

This newly created topic - just keeps the fires burning

Ken - Is there a news feed that provides more info?

Again talking about the manufacturers and copyright when it is clearly a goverment statute.  Here is the Canadian Act on this verbatim:

Copying for Private Use

80. (1) Subject to subsection (2), the act of reproducing all or any substantial part of

(a) a musical work embodied in a sound recording,

(b) a performer's performance of a musical work embodied in a sound recording, or

(c) a sound recording in which a musical work, or a performer's performance of a musical work, is embodied

onto an audio recording medium for the private use of the person who makes the copy does not constitute an infringement of the copyright in the musical work, the performer's performance or the sound recording.

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply if the act described in that subsection is done for the purpose of doing any of the following in relation to any of the things referred to in paragraphs (1)(a) to (c):

(a) selling or renting out, or by way of trade exposing or offering for sale or rental;

(b) distributing, whether or not for the purpose of trade;

(c) communicating to the public by telecommunication; or

(d) performing, or causing to be performed, in public.



This seems very clear not only copies but their use in publlic.  So I can't see where a gray area is.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

The DVR was invented in part, so people could download copyrighted television programming and movies.  Prior to that people were reproducing the same programming on media such as video tape and DVD.

What are people doing now with karaoke and music CD(G)s?  They're copying to disc as a backup (which in essense is the same as ripping to a PC).  Anyone want to start a pool on how long it's going to take before digital players/recorders will be the preferred and accepted medium for all programming and music storage?  I say 10 years.

Check this out.  In an effort to reduce the dependency on natural resources, top CD/DVD manufactuers have finally scrapped the disc concept altogether and invested in what they're calling Media Centers in malls, schools, airports and other places of convenience.  Here's how it works, bring your entertainment center's storage chest down to your nearest media transfer station, swipe your bank card, and plug in.  Backed by the FCC, movies, music, scheduled network programming, karaoke, books, newspapers, etc.  will all be available for transfer to your storage unit.  

That's a NY Times blog post for a few years down the road.  Everything, I tell you, will be digitized, if not because we're afraid of exhausting our precious resources, it'll be because the industry has found a way to control the digital world to satisfy their needs.  Trust me, they want it too.  Think of the manufacturing, distribution, and labor costs alone.  Not to mention the positive effect on our planet.  They can still demand the same price.  Makes too much sense not to happen.


For those of us that are digitized now, having purchased the music, we are the pioneers, not the criminals.  We are a rapidly growing underground sect of the music entertainment world that is only going to grow, and all it's going to take to make it legal is the right person or group talking to the right people in the right places.

How many here have emailed or mailed their congressman or representative? I have. It's in the works now If we sign a statement saying we are illegal and sorryu, and pay a $500  fine we will be issued a certificate of legality and can use digital karaoke on fri sat sun nights from 7p to 1a..

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This sat we have a private party and and our regular gig I I will make $350 The next weekend I have a wedding and will make $450 Later in the month I have another wedding and will make $700 in one day .Now if you wannabes want to come to Greeley Colorado and tell me how to run my business or tell me how illegal I am you come here I will have you in court in a minute,

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Join The Karaokle Singers Social Network. Upload Your Music!!

By now,  since most have gotten to know one-another in here, and have had the oppurtunity to read the opinions, perspectives, and levels of passion from staunch supporters of current laws (as some individuals perceive them to exist as), to the "I could care less about THAT company, That law sucks so I'll break it despite YOUR opinion",  or, "That's not what that law says, yadda yadda yadda", to... "I'll do what I want, stop chewing my ear off, I don't need you to regurgitate how you feel for the umpteenth time, because all I have to do is shut my eyes, and I see your type given the 100+ posts I've heard you say the same things OVER and OVER and OVER again in"...  Point being..


We KNOW how each and every individual that's already taken part in this constant and repetitive diatribe feels. Don't people get tired of beating their heads against a wall considering all this is doing at this point is making the opposing perspective push the play button repeating the SAME EXACT POINTS ?   Is it fun to go on and on running around in the same circles when most of us know exactly how each and every individual in here feels regarding this "legality" stuff ?


I suppose I'm only somewhat compulsive compared to a few others in here.  It only takes me 10,000 indenticle posts to feel satisfied that there's nothing more I can say or do regarding a given argument.

Yeah,  I guess I agree that while it's fine to keep kicking a dead horse, I usually quit kicking within a year or-so after the total decomposition of the horses carcass

I suppose since so many are grounded in civil and criminal law, the days spent in court, and time spent preparing and researching case law to get ready for client cases just isn't tiring enough.  Realistically,  the only significant difference between those that KNOW, and those that say they know,  is those that know aren't trying to substantiate knowledge with a room full of lay-people on the internet.  Those that know put their money where their mouth is and take the risks of using what they actually know against other Atty's and are capable of presenting their ability in an actual contest, in front of a judge, jury, and individuals that aren't so easy to bluff.  Those that know up the ante with A LOT more at stake.  Otherwise,  nobody has proved anything either way.  It's an unimpressive debate, not unlike an attempted kindergarten chess tournament.  While it's a blast to act babyish,  I prefer to have fun while doing it.   Folks have *all* made their points.  The inability to sway those that disagree doesn't mean you haven't each made your poiints VERY clearly.

Why not discuss something more original that most haven't yet thought of..

Like, Ummm...

"Tne Singers Showcase Rank and Critique categories" !!!!

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

What I find amusing (somewhat) is that this post was originally suggesting that we stop, and do the very same thing; quit beating each other up.  Then someone posts an 'I don't give a hoot' and someone responds by blasting back at them.  In both cases, the integrity of the post suffers.

If I become worn and tired of a subject I stop listening, and stop talking.  One of the main reasons that everybody here has weighed in on the legalities of format shifting is because anyone else who might be interested, or better yet, might have something of value to add is turned off by the seemingly intelligent, but often offensive backlash persisting in this forum.

For those of you who are tired of a topic, stay out of the discussions and let those who want to present ideas and share thoughts, do so.  Some may tire of seeing the same reruns of Seinfeld over and over again, but there are those who love it and can't get enough.  If you're tired of watching the show, change channels.  You'll feel better about yourselves for not infringing on someone elses rights.  And who knows, you might even have an original thought of your own.

I agree with most peeps on this board, that I'm pretty stupid.. Butt, a common thread through to legal system is, fitness for purpose.

If, the disks are manufactured for KJs, (Seems obvious), how can they stop public performance.

Now I know many disks are designed with "Practice Tracks" (Vocals included) and would seem to be better suited for the home market..

Butt again, something called, "Foundation Set" or some such, clearly is designed for professional use.

Is this the reason nobody has been sued in court?

I'm not saying the copyright laws are crap, (Oh, maybe I am)...

Clearly, they need to move into the 21st century..  Digital is here, where are they?

[schild=13 fontcolor=C0C0C0 shadowcolor=C0C0C0 shieldshadow=1]Eff The Disk Mfgs[/schild]

In brief,  This topic FOR YEARS invariably has been (or turned into) a game of "I know Copyright Law hence I qualify to sentence you as guilty of Copyright Infringment".

Such diatribe takes place between individuals with little to no knowledge of Civil and/or Criminal law, totally disregarding substantive law. Sidewalk Attys that have no concept of terms such as Jurisprudence, and de minimus (let alone an intricate grey *yet to be established* area of a HIGHLY specialized field of the law) have been posing in these threads as "experts" sentencing others while disregarding "intelligent" input (assuming such input doesn't suit their individual agenda to play Judge, Jury using guises in an attempt to pawn unfounded erroneous presentation as fact).

Nobody objects to "sharing of opinions", but not one of these threads has amounted to anything beyond diatribe, pedantry, and a sophomoric display devoid of integrity.  People seldom ignore areas where others impinge themselves (on the internet). This same recurring thread has invariably amounted to nothing beyond "I'm an expert and you are not". Others perspectives/opinions ARE NOT respected.

The only posts that HAVE in fact come from credible sources have been posts prefaced with "It's my understanding", or "It doesn't seem likely based upon my understanding" and few care about these reasonable posts in these recurring threads.  What's annoying (and wrong) is individuals posing as Copyright Law experts sentencing one-another. Individuals that ARE NOT qualified to :judge: others, and should not be doing-so. These threads are about "impinging opinion on others" and nothing more !

There's little integrity in a thread where gumball machine sanctioned Attys bash one-another using the guise of "What I state is based on substantive law", when it's evident such individuals lack an interest in researching particular areas, and in most cases lack the capacity to understand intricacies of substantive law.



In an ideal situation that has yet to exist within these bboards.  Those capable of amicable exchanges end up running from these threads.  "Illegal Karaoke" has always in the past served as an open door for those that DO NOT know to play expert, while those that have some understanding end up chatting in PM because the kiddies are making too much noise.  There has yet to be integrity displayed in such threads, and they've been repeating themselves more times than you can imagine.  Yet is it wrong to allow everybody to play "Karaoke Perry Mason" on the internet ?  Probably not.  

After-all,  Everybody just loves being accused of being a criminal in an area they enjoy !!  Let the spitball fight commence !

The KJ's have their own area where such individuals can discuss certain areas of interest without people such as myself that have no clue impeding their conversation.  The SAME should go for areas of "law".  What right do individuals have on these boards to tell others that they are "Illegal" ? What's respectable about this ?

I don't understand what right lay people have sentencing one-another in these rooms. All these threads become are continuing sources for self-acclaimed law experts to pose in, judging others in a very difficult area they have no qualifications in.  Unless somebody wishes to post their actual credentials, and an Esq. following their name, what constitutes conducting "legal" vs "illegal" practices in this area has no place in a fun bboard setting IMHO.  It's NONE of anybodies business to judge anybody else within a grey area of the law where internet chatters profess (pose) to have knowledge in an area of the law where case outcome is ONLY to be currently determined on a case by case basis.  

Assuming individuals cared to cite specific areas of the law substantiating what they are blathering as opposed to needing to get so "creative", THAT would make for interesting exchange within such a complex vague area.

.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Discs are produced with the pro kj in mind.  Public performance is legal when the clubs pay their ASCAP/BMI fees.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I agree, yet others would hold a different opinion..

I've seen KJs copy disks at a show. Clearly, he didn't give a rip.. (pun intended)

Edited out my obnoxious post

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

If they dui bust a kj and/or bar owner and haul them before a district judge or grand jury bars would start dumping karaoke like crazy.

Also the 90% of the singers that are not even aware of this problem which totally gets blown out of proportion here would start screaming. Then maybe a process would begin  that the "problem" would  be solved.

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Join The Karaokle Singers Social Network. Upload Your Music!!