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Boy isn't that the truth! It is hard for anyone to be completely legal with things like that going on. We can't ask them for paper work proving they are legal for every song we buy. Not to mention the artists that decide to pull out at any given time. One day I can use Garth Brooks stuff the next I can't. It's all so hard to keep up with.

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Stop using Garth Brooks (or any other that pulled their karaoke rights) just because the manus have to stop making his songs - I think not.   That eliminate a good chunk of my book - if it ever comes down to that, I go back to a day job & sell everything off.

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It looks to me like they have  changed ownership They now have a california address and have totally changed their website. The search engine and format is totally different and changing. They used to have all the THM and monthly releases all the time They also had Chart Buster and others.

I do hope they work it out I dont know whether Im going to go back into retirement or not but I'll tell you what. I'm not buying 1-20 new cd's a month.

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I am almost hesitant to post a reply, but...

ASCAP and BMI are NOT the ones going after the bars and KJs in Phoenix. Sound Choice and Stellar Records are the ones who are going to (threatening to?) prosecute computer based KJs and the clubs that are using them. And, whereas the KJs might not have money, the VENUES are the ones SC and Stellar are threatening, and some of them are worth millions. ASCAP and BMI (and you can check their web sites for this info) are entities that look out for the interests of the authors and artists of a song. They grant permission, for a fee, for the songs to be played commercially (like in bars or on the radio or at a "cover" band's concert). They have no jurisdiction over copying anything. They are only interested in the actual song coming out of the speakers. If it is one of their clients songs, they don't care what it is being played from, they only care that someone has paid for the right to play it. Most bars already pay into ASCAP and BMI for their jukebox, television, bands and karaoke. It is a yearly fee. Now, the copying (burning or format shifting) is covered by the copyright laws. Sound Choice and Stellar are using their exclusive rights as the copyright holders of THEIR versions of songs to go after computer based karaoke operators and those using burned discs.

As for wanting you to ruin your discs so you will buy more....ummm...not exactly. IF you ruin your discs, you SHOULD buy more. It's part of the cost of running this particular business. But they don't WANT you to ruin your discs - sometimes that just happens. As for backing up your discs to protect your investment, the problem is that to do that, you either have to burn discs or format shift and, AS THE CURRENT FEDERAL LAW STANDS, both of these things are ILLEGAL without authorization from the copyright holder. Now, it was stated in the Stellar Record letter to the Phoenix and Scottsdale area, that they cannot, BY LAW, give you that authorization because they still have to follow the rules set forth by the publishers who still own THEIR rights to the songs.

There are so many other questions here I am not sure where to start. First off, Sound Choice does, indeed offer SOME of their songs for download. From what BC says in the "other forum," those songs are largely already public domain OR they are the VERY FEW songs where the original publisher has ALLOWED for format or space shifting. There are like a couple thousand songs there - not enough to run even a basic karaoke show. They do not put their whole catalog of songs there because they do not have permission from the ORIGINAL copyright holders.

And OF COURSE it's about money! If I am making money using YOUR product, then you should be compensated in some way. If I am sitting at home NOT making money, then what would I be contributing to the industry anyway? A home karaoke enthusiast will probably never have the vast libraries of songs we KJs have. (Some will.) KJs use their discs every night and thus the wear and tear. If we use a disc until it is destroyed, then it will need to be replaced. As KJs, we are expected to buy another disc (just as we would have to buy another tire if we were a delivery service and blew a tire). Original purchase and replacement or repair costs are part of this business. On the other hand, SC and Stellar are not going to be upset if you happen to be SUPER careful with the handling of your discs and NEVER have to replace one. Home users are PROBABLY not going to ruin as many discs as a professional host. Now, I am at a loss for how to answer why it should be commercially and not personal. There are probably a thousand answers to that one, but the main answer IS that it IS about the money. People deserve to get paid for their work ESPECIALLY if YOU are making money from their work.

$999,000.000...well...it may not be a huge amount, but it sure sends a message. Also, the fact that it is JUST UNDER a million bucks leads me to believe that there is a cap to the amount Famous can sue for in this particular district, as is the case in some places. I believe the reason for the lawsuit, though, is not JUST the money but the fact that it will stop CAVS from continuing to illegally use Famous Music's songs. (Babs said CAVS said they are having copyright issues....ummm...MIGHT be because of the lawsuit. They USED to have a HUGE library. My OPINION is that they have removed anything they have been ORDERED to remove and they are saying they are revamping because MOST people will not purchase things from a company that is doing something illegal. If they said, "Oh...we're being sued because we didn't own some of the music we sold you," people MIGHT not buy from them in the future.)  I am trying to find a list of music published by Famous Music to see if their songs have been removed from any of the offerings at CAVS. I think that, if you keep watching all of this, if Famous Music wins their suit, many of the other music publishers will come out of the woodwork and also sue CAVS. Also, if this gets settled out of court, other publishers may try this to get THEIR songs out of the CAVS systems so they can start making money on them again. (planet_bill pretty much said the same thing...I just reworded it a bit...good post bill)

SLIGHTLY off topic: The problem with format or space shifting is that it really cannot be regulated at this time. The manus AND the music publishers understand the REASONS we want to put our selections into computers, but, as there is no way to regulate it, we have to wait for them to catch up with technology. That is how the law stands today. Unfortunately, regardless of how we FEEL about the law, at this point in time, it is illegal to burn your karaoke music onto another disc and it is illegal to rip it into your computer FOR COMMERCIAL use. If you run a show, it is commercial and thus, it is illegal.

As for ASCAP and BMI going into bars...here in Ohio (I do not know about ANY other state) the YEARLY fee for a bar to have karaoke is $28. If a bar can't afford THAT, they certainly can't afford ME!!

One more comment to one of the above posts. Wanting money for your work is not greed, it's business. Wanting ALL the money owed to you because of your work is not greed, it's business. Wanting something for nothing and wanting to have little or no overhead or normal business costs (like replacement costs for worn out products)...THAT'S greed.

To all the military and retired military...All honors and blessings to you this Memorial Day. Thanks for all you've done and all that you are continuing to do.

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Keep it legal!!!

SO say I ruin say 20 discs that are NOT replaceable, how do I go about replacing those, or just say, oh darn, oh well, sorry customers that have singing these songs for years, my discs broke & aren't replaceable so you are SOL, so & so's club down the street have those songs for you.  Yeah it's part of doing business, I always like to cut my own throat.  What about someone who has never had to replace a disc in 13 years because they take care of their stuff?  Not helping the manus in one single way, shape or form.  



Well in a sense they are just making JUST as much as they always have been, HOW?  By me PURCHASING new discs to ADD to my library.  I have yet had to spend money on a replacement disc, so there is no revenue gain to a manu in that respect, they even admitted that their replacement revenue is less than 1% per year for their overall net.  I am still using the music in the way it was originally intended, 1 system only, no multiple rigs, no copying for distribution or selling.  I am not making any more on the computer than I would be with the discs (which are under my table at all times at every show).  You keep repeating the same things, so I will as well in the debate format.

If I am sitting at home NOT making money, then what would I be contributing to the industry anyway? A home karaoke enthusiast will probably never have the vast libraries of songs we KJs have. (Some will.) KJs use their discs every night and thus the wear and tear. [/quote]

And I can tell you from several HOME enthusiasts that I personally know, that most of them also use computers for their karaoke.  



Provided it's replaceable in the first place, can't replace the irreplaceable!



So why go on about the cost for replacing of worn discs to manus who have admitted that isn't where there main money is?  If it was a main source of income, the ones that offer free replacements wouldn't...THINK about it!  Why would they cut their own throat giving away replacement discs if it was a large portion of the income...it's NOT!  



Have you ever really looked at discs that customers hand you?  I'm willing to bet that MOST of the replacement discs that you keep repeating are FROM home users NOT taking care of their discs.  I've seen customers buy a disc new & 2 months later bring me that same disc & it no longer plays.  Actually LOOK at the underside of customer discs (home users).  



Sure, but I am not making any more or less by using a computer, & the manus make money by each & every subsequant disc buy I do every month?



Could be famous didn't win with their previous battles with the manus so they are going after the ones selling the copies...bring in CAVS.  Every manu they have sold have had legal problems of their own due to improper licensing of songs, or are no longer in business



Yep technically it is, never denied that!  I will wait & see if/when clubs start getting busted to make my decision to open my cd coffin & run my show from disc or just keep it closed & run the show from computer.



Hmmm, must've been a small bar with no capacity.  We ran a bar that held 150 & their yearly fee was $840.  Or you got your information mixed.

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[shadow=deepskyblue]I'm impressed, I've never met such a small mind inside such a big head before.[/shadow]

I just received this email from cavs.

Dear Customer,



The karaoke download website is currently being re-constructed.

It will be running with full portfolios in 1 - 3 months.

The site will remain open with continuous updating of the songs and features.

We apologize for any inconvenience or confusion.

Thank you for your visit and business.





Thanks,



Tech Support

CAVS USA

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[updown]~*~ MONKEY BUSINESS KARAOKE~*~ [/shadow][/updown][/glow]

Once again, TTowntenor...please READ the posts before replying to them in a negative fashion. I stated in my previous post that [glow=darkorchid]SC and Stellar were not going to be upset if you NEVER ruin a disc[/glow]. So, obviously by asking you have proven that you do not read the posts before you reply.

As for discs that cannot be replaced. Yes. As the law stands NOW (TODAY...this minute, right NOW)...the CURRENT copyright laws of this country (and many others)...you would be SOL and that is just how it is. Yes...the guy down the street might have the songs you lost, but he might have ruined his too and if he is legal, he won't be able to replace his either. Now...if everyone (EVERYONE includes multi-riggers, downloaders, preloaded CAVS users or ANYONE ELSE violating the copyrights of the manufacturers) would begin to do things legally, the publishers MIGHT re-release some of the music they have pulled because they weren't receiving payments for them. As it stands now, the publishers are pulling their rights because of all of the copyright violations. (Other reasons too, but that is one of the main reasons.)

You say that replacement is like 1%. Okay...what is 1% of a billion? Hmmmm...that would be TEN MILLION. So....1% of all of the money they COULD be making if people were following the law is $10,000,000.00. I would DEFINITELY sue someone if they cost me TEN MILLION dollars. Even if it WAS only 1%.

As for me continuing to repeat myself, READ THE POSTS. A question was asked. I answered it. In answering it, I had to repeat things I've said before IN A DIFFERENT THREAD. Obviously, the person questioning it has not read the locked thread and was looking for answers. Just because YOU read something posted in another thread does not mean EVERYONE read that same thread.

As for the home users using computers. THAT is exactly what we were talking about. It is OKAY and LEGAL for personal use. READ THE POSTS BEFORE YOU REPLY IN A NEGATIVE FASHION.

Also on the home users: MOST (not all, but ALMOST ALL) of the people who bring their discs to our shows know how to handle them properly and many times, THEIRS are in better shape than mine because they are the only people using their discs at home but I have several KJs who use mine at shows. When a home user brings us a damaged disc, we usually explain proper care and handling and refer them to one of the local CD shops that does resurfacing.

Famous hasn't won their lawsuits yet because they haven't been tried yet. Do you think that if you file a lawsuit today, it will be adjudicated over night?? We will probably be reading about the CAVS lawsuit (still in the pending stage) for a couple of years. As I have said before (in a different thread), the wheels of justice turn VERY slowly.

As for ASCAP and BMI...maybe you have YOUR information mixed up. The "alphabet police" fees are broken up into categories. You pay a certain amount for your television (because of jingles, opening themes, background music) and a certain amount for your jukebox and a certain amount for live music (cover bands). You also pay a certain amount for karaoke. One of our bars, with a capacity of 344, pays about $900 a year. The part of that put toward karaoke is $28. They pay more for their jukebox and cover bands, less for us and even less for their televisions. I checked with our other bars and their payment for karaoke is ALSO $28 a year. Now, the bar where we run karaoke five nights a week pays a bit more for karaoke because more songs are being played in five days than in one day. Just as the alphabet police assume a jukebox is being played EVERY day.

Now...if you actually READ THE WHOLE POST, you shouldn't have anymore questions, right TT? But, I think, secretly, you like reading my posts or you wouldn't keep challenging me. (wink wink)

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Keep it legal!!!

Hon You very welcome.. As a member of the VFW and time of service all during the sixties and whats going on in the world right now any form of thanks is welcome. There are many things that are more important than the stuff we get so emotional about on here  LOL Have a good weekend and wear your seatbelt and dont let anybody drink and drive... Uh Oh other thread topic.. Thank You...

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No I don't generally read entire articles I reply paragraph by paragraph & since you repeats things...sometimes often...within the same post, the question may get answered 2, 3 or more times throughout the replies.



Ah but so he takes better care of his discs & won't need to replace his damaged discs for another 5-10 years, so my customers now become his because he has the songs they want to sing that I can no longer access.  Makes total sense.



No the main reason for many according to Sound Choice is publisher denials & artist denials, copyrights may have a factor, but there are several karaoke unfriendly artists...Don Henley being the king.  He simply can't stand karaoke & refuses to license ANYTHING that he wrote/cowrote, Glenn Frey is another.  Many artists followed suit after they were so bohemethly against karaoke.  
The manus want to start doing there own computer things which I believe is the stir of all this SC/Stellar crap to begin with...SC already has started.  They even advertise on their own site, use on a laptop/ipod/cell phone for that matter.  If they sell in that format I will buy in that format.



Well you sure have more confidence in the karaoke industry than they themselves have stated, as BC from SC has stated numerous times, that some discs don't even reach 5 figures.  But BC also stated it was under 1% for the replacement revenue...could have something to do with the fact that they give their replacements away for free.  I don't know how often you have to replace your discs, you may want to look for better storage & handling, but i've never had to replace a disc in 13 years.  Folders/binders/speedracks all cause unnecessary wear on discs, jewel cases do not.  Keep your players cleaned & aligned on a regular basis, there will be little to no wear there.  Invest in a good machine to resurface your discs that do accidently get scratched...brings them back to like new status.  These are just some of the things I do to keep me from having to repurchase discs.



Again, I answer as I read down.  So if you repeat things, I may repeat answers.  I never mentioned the other thread once?  So do not know where that came from.



Well according to some transferring to computer in any format is illegal, even with the laws that are written today.



Then your customers are more of a rarity, I was out with a friend last night & was looking at his discs & out of 22, 12 were scratched worse than i've ever had running different shows nightly for years.  




OK, then don't say that the cost of karaoke is $28 per year, that is an ADD ON expense which you DID NOT state in the original post.  I know exactly how it works, I was there & helped them fill out the application for the BMI side.  They did the ASCAP & SESAC, you do know they need all 3 to "keep it legal".
http://bmi.com/forms/licensing/ede.pdf
That is just the BMI app.



Again, I respond as I read down.  If questions come up repeatidly, I will answer repeatidly.



Always up for a challenge.  And now after seeing your pic...

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[shadow=deepskyblue]I'm impressed, I've never met such a small mind inside such a big head before.[/shadow]

Okay...I'll be nice...ONCE...thank you TT for the comment on the picture. As Babs and Lonman can tell you, it took A LOT to get it put on here. I am technology challenged. Thanks, Babs and Lonman!!

I will let the rest slide...for the moment.

To anyone who has to run a show tonight,
[glow=darkorchid]HAVE A GREAT SHOW!!!!!.[/glow]
I get the weekend off!!!! (One of my KJs needs the money more than me this week...yeehaw!!!!)

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Keep it legal!!!

You're welcome.  Glad you got it working, I completely forgot about the need to buy the privelidge.  I agree, nice avatar.

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very nice indeed!

NEO, On the surface that $999,999.00 Does look pretty lame, I'm sitting here with a hard copy of the complaint, so let me try in a nutshell to let those of you that have an interest know what it says.

1. Famous is going after Cavs for 134 copyright violations.
2. They are asking the court to grant them relief (money) for 3 different copyright violations.
3.Famous is asking for relief under copyright infringement 17U.S.C.$$ 101,ET SEQ.
which is the original copyright violation. $250,000.00 per violation. 250x134 335million dollars.
4. Famous is asking for relief under the willful copyright Infringement. 17U.S.C.$ 504(c)(2). An additional $150,000.00 per infringement. 150x134 201million dollars.
5. Third claim for relief under unfair competion. There asking for the books to be opened and ALL profits from these 134 infringements to be paid to them and any other punitive damages a jury will give and of course Attorney's fees
6. Famous admits it has no Idea of the amounts of profit until the books are opened.
So what at face value seems to be a lame lawsuit ( and it does appear to be that by the dollar amount )isn't so lame at a min. of 535million dollars. My thoughts would be it will only take a 10 million dollar judgement to put Cavs out of business. Just my thought. I googled famous music/cavs like someone suggested and can only find this filing against Cavs,they have never been sued by Famous before . All the rest of the Co's show up CB,SC, and stellar but those were settled with the exception of stellar already.

Anybody wants to know what's going on in PHX ask otherwise I won't bother

Thanks for the info Phxkj  :handshake:  Now that makes more sense!!  :yes:

Have a Great weekend everyone...  :hi5:

Ok I am looking for a Karaoke Machine and am not sure which is best.  It is impossible to find any opinions anywhere.  What exactly is the CAVS lawsuit about exactly?  Is it about the SCDG format or something else?

Sorry for the math error, it was late,
250,000 x 134---Approx.33 million
150,000 x 134 --Approx.20 million
53 million plus attorneys fees and punitive damages , Also I forgot that famous has asked for an injunction to stop the sale of all of thier copyrighted items, maybe thats why the pickens have gotten so low on there music site, YA THINK.

I guess time will tell what happens to Cavs. I'm just so surprised Cavs would have so many new products and dumping so much money into their download site if they were worried about the lawsuit. or maybe the have a false sense of invulnerability.

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I have one of the best systems in the world So does another Kj here in greeley WE paid for them using cavs software players.. The first 300 cd's were ripped with cavs software.

How in the hell is the downfall of cavs going to help anybody here? I am tired of buying 15 songs to get one..

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