Karaoke Forums

Well sure, but i've found the best way to handle these are basically tell them - Hey, i've already called last call, I CAN NOT promise anything, but if there is any possible way, I will try.  Usually this appeases them to a point where they know they may not get up as well.

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As I singer I really resent when KJ's put new people in rotation in front of me. I think new singers should always be put at the end of the rotation that way it is fair for those of us that got there early and have been waiting to sing. Consider if you will the scenario where a singer perhaps sings one song and goes into rotation; however new people continue to trickle in most of the night. Potentially that singer may never have another shot and not really know when their turn is as the person that sang before them previously is no longer next to them in rotation.

For instance, I've gone in with a friend of mine a few times where we sang a couple of songs in a couple of rotations and lets say my friend sings. Next the KJ starts putting about 10 or 15 people in between the two of us. (This has happened). I don't get to sing even though I should have been next in rotation until about 1 to 2 hours later and the whole time I am patiently waiting believing surely I am just about to be up. Actually this has made me extremely mad on one occasion where I had words with the KJ and swore I would never return while they were KJ'ing. That was about 11/2 year ago and so far I have kept that promise. I used to frequent often but I am GONE now. There are other venues that don't disrespect me that much.  Actually with that guy it was a bit more complicated as he had also told me I would be up next and then he put up a couple of more people that were his friends and then it was 'last song of the night'. He had done this at least once before as well.

You can justify it many ways and I realize as a KJ it is tempting to try and make please everyone. People that come in late - sure they want to sing. I've been in that situation too where there is a big rotation and it is an hour until close. I never expect to sing then. I know I have already missed rotation.

The rule should be if you make the effort to get there early and patronize the bar and KJ because of being early you should be rewarded with a legitimate, fair rotation. People that are already in rotation should never be penalized. I understand the new guy wants to sing, and I understand the motivation of the KJ to be liked and more popular by getting more new people in rotation, but they belong at the end of the current rotation. In other words they belong at the top of the next rotation, and you might mention to the audience that is what is occuring and when you will be down to the people previously in rotation. That way the earlier rotation people can make up their mind if they want to wait longer or not. Everyone will still have to wait and the rotation will become longer, but I think this is objectively the most fair.

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The Truth Is Out There

Then the kj wasn't doing it right.  They should not put all the new singers in at once, they should be intermixed with the old, getting the people that have been there up again, while still working in the new singers.  Karaoke shouldn't be about who you are up after, as long as people aren't getting up more than 1 time before you, just sit back & have some fun - that's what's it's supposed to be about.  Not just for the old singers, new people do trickle in all night, I know for a fact our club would have my head if those people weren't treated just as I would anyone else.  Everyone gets at least 1 chance to sing if that's what they are coming in to do.  Nobody will sing twice in a rotation & the people that have been there from the start WILL sing more than any new singer coming in.  Come in too late, you may not get a chance to sing at all.

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I think it is important that if your "feel" like you were skipped or overlooked you SHOULD  mention to the KJ ( keep in mind on how you mention )

But I know as I KJ I have unintentionally skipped or ovelrooked a singer and it wasn't until they brought it to my attention could I fix my screw up

JUST A THOUGHT ..it does happen

Sat we had a couple of young gals come in at 10:30.. One asked how long we would be there I told at least till 12 maybe a little longer. They each got in one song and in the last hour we were in overdrive trying to get everybody in. They both had another song in I walked over to their table and told them we can squeeze both of you in again if you want to duet one. They were happy.

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Working in new people with the system of old, new, old, new, old,  that should have never happened. I am very cognizant of my regulars and how long they are waiting.

The other night I started with 10 singers, an hour later about 20 singers came in all at once. I started the first new singer 5 down then started adding in new people every other new, old, new, old. Now most people aren't usd to waiting that long to get their 1st song in, so I made announcements that a large number of people came in all at once so there would be a longer wait. Of course even more people came in after that. Those people I explained personally the longer wait.

I guess what I'm saying is every night is different and I try to do what is fairest to everyone. Most nights I'll get 2  or 3 new singers at a time not 20, so it is much easier to manage. If I would have piled all the new singers at the end the regulars would have waiting much longer to sing again. Using the every other (old, new, old, new ) I think is a better way for me to be fair.

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We do the old singer/new singer thing after the first rotation. We agree with a lot of you on someone NEVER singing twice before a new singer as their first turn. It gets tricky sometimes because sometimes there are more new singers than old singers, depending on the night. Then we do old singer/new singer/new singer/old singer/new singer/new singer, etc.

We pick up the books an hour before the end of the show and only allow old singers to put in more songs at that point because anyone coming in at 1 am has probably (and USUALLY) already been spending their money supporting another bar and show and I am not going to have them come in and upset the people who've been spending their money at my show all night. We make exceptions for people that we KNOW were at work and couldn't get there before 1 am. BUT....they usually call us or the bar and put their songs in while they are still at work so we know they are coming. We also make exceptions for bartenders if their bars close early and they stop out to see us.

I have a question: One of the companies here in town complains about our "zipper system", as they call it, and says that the way THEY do it is to put ALL new singers at the end of the second rotation. Now, I've never been to their show, but, if they had 15 new singers (which around here is not abnormal) ALL at the end of the second rotation (thus the BEGINNING of the third ROTATION), would anyone here sit there and wait for the hour plus that it would take before all of the new singers were done? Granted, with the "zipper system," the last old singer has to wait that long, but they at least see a light at the end of the tunnel because they see the other old singers getting up every other turn. If I was at a show at 9 and sang close to the beginning of rounds one and two, I would leave if I saw a bunch of new people singing at the beginning of round three and if I was one of the LAST in round one and two...I don't think I would go to a show like that more than once. Unless I was late...then I know I would sing right away in the third rotation while all the early birds had to wait.

So...that's my question...would you sit and wait or find another show somewhere?

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Keep it legal!!!

If I had to wait through an hour+ of all new singers, then I would probably leave.  If I saw that the old singers were getting up as well, I would know my turn would be coming a little sooner than having to sit through a - essentially - new round of singers.  The wait is still going to be there either way, but mixing them in gets the old singers up a little sooner.

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Unless of course ...yet another round of new singers came in, and the KJ went ahead and placed them inbetween the new, now {old} new singers....  :oh yeah:

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Sweet Little Me In Karaokeland........

Lonman @ Fri May 25, 2007 8:12 pm wrote:

If I had to wait through an hour+ of all new singers, then I would probably leave.  If I saw that the old singers were getting up as well, I would know my turn would be coming a little sooner than having to sit through a - essentially - new round of singers.  The wait is still going to be there either way, but mixing them in gets the old singers up a little sooner.

See, this is where I know Lonnie and I disagree.

To me, it's like being in line at the bank or store or rollercoaster or whatever. In such a scenario, would you ba happy at someone getting "bumped" up in front of you just because you'd been in the line and played in the bumper cars before??  No, you'd want them to go to the end of the line like everyone else!

Ultimately, no matter how we all disagree or agree on this, the one thing I think we ALL agree on is that the place be consistant! With Bill's situation with a kj playing favorites, you can see how rotation adjustment can be and WILL be much more insideous than just doing first come first served.

By the way, I HATE the subdued text when posting... it's so grey I can't see it very well, and I'm deathly afraid it'll post like that. PHILL, reverse this please! My eyes!! "I ain't as good as I once was!!"

If another round of new singers came in they would obviously go in after any already new singers into the next round in which I would expect more wait, but I would not want to watch an entire batch of new singers get up all at once.

And what the hell is this dark grey tect on darker grey background  :shock: .  YUK!

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Yeah but you had a great time at my show  :nana:  maybe it was the Jello injectors!

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yeah, I got to watch you screw the pooch and accidentally push the eject button of the player that was playing, not on standby! ! You inherited those jello injectors I do believe! !

Yeah yeah yeah, must've been someone else you were thinking of  :dontknow:

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Man, somebody needs to do something about this font change. "Houston, we have a problem".

A few of you have mentioned some good points that need to be always incorporated in a show.

1) There should always be consistency in the rules.
2) There should be no favorites, friends, or paid exceptions to the rotation.
3) Duets should count as 1 song for each singer
4) You should communicate very often, and effectively with the audience / singers about the current status of the rotation, wait times.
5) You should minimize downtime and times between songs.
6) You likely shouldn't have breaks or periods of rest in the rotation if there are a lot of singers waiting to sing.
7) A visual aid such as a whiteboard, blackboard, or overhead projector showing the rotation list to the audience might be appreciated by all.
8 ) You should cut off requests early enough to allow everyone that already subbed a request to sing it.
9) If singers ask, then let them know when they will be up next, and who they are behind.  You can even tell some people in the audience as you walk by and chat with them.
10) Try and not make rude remarks or witty remarks that could be interpreted wrongly by singers or the audience.
11) Keep the energy level high, and find ways to make the audience / singers feel good.

Concepts that I disagree with or still have concerns about are as follows:

1) 'Someone that has already sang should never sing if there is a new person that hasn't sung yet'. I feel here that just because they walk in the door doesn't give them the right to jump in front of me in line. And what rhyme or reason allows you the KJ to justify which old singer will get bumped by the new guy? The new person will get to sing soon at the top of the next rotation, and likely won't have to wait that long. If the new people get there earlier then they get to sing more just like the other people that showed up early. That's whey we get there early. We shouldn't be penalized for supporting the show and being there early and already in rotation.

2) As for problems with lots of new people being put in at once (like 15) - well that was just an example. Usually early on the rotations get bigger each time. Everyone expects that and the rotations to take longer.  That's just part of how it goes. It may only be a few extra new singers on early rotations. Later there could be as many as 15 or even more added. That's one of the benefits of being there early.

I will say that consistently interjecting a new singer into the rotation could work, but it would have to be done without penalizing 1 particular singer. In my previous problem with the KJ and others I have experienced they might put all the new people in front of me in the middle rotation. Somehow you would have to do it so that each singer has about the same wait time as others. The other trick would be to communiicate that to the audience and for them to understand and believe it was fair. Otherwise they will just see new people getting stuck in front of them and get upset. I think that is a challenge. That's why I believe it's more obvious and straightforward to the peole in the audience if they remain behind the same people always but new singers are added each new rotation all at once in the order turned in. Each rotation the KJ can announce the end of the previous rotation and that new singers are being added but rotation will be continuing. Of course always let people know when they will be up, who they are behind, and give estimates of about how long if possible.

Note: I can kind of see Bab's idea of letting in the new singer - that others shoudn't get mad because they were allowed in when they were new. However first rotation of course everyone is new so they don't really get the benefit. Plus later on if you have say 15 people to intermix it pushed people toward the end of the initial rotations way down because all those people are added in front of them, but not in front of the people earlier in the rotation. That is unfair / biased to individuals. Once again that's why always adding new at end of rotation is always consistently fair to everyone. It rewards those that are early, it doesn't penalize people just because they have already sung like that is some kind of problem, and new singers still will get to sing soon enough. If people want to sing more then they can try and get to the show early. You should try and encourage that as a KJ.

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The Truth Is Out There

Bill - that was so well written.  :oh yeah:

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
I do really think if you made it to one of my shows you'd be happy with the way things went. It's hard to explain without experiencing it 1st hand. I don't believe one way is better than another, it is just a different way of doing it. The rotation rules I use now is what has worked out  best for me personally. It has been what has made the majority of my crowd happy. Believe me if I had a lot of complaints about it I would change. I'm never above changing things for the better.

But I want to thank you for such an intelligent response - you rock !

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Hey thanks Babs. I'm sure you run a great show, and perhaps you can pull it off with enough communication and a big smile. I'm open to suggestions, it's just so far that's the best way I've seen it done.

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The Truth Is Out There

If I could put my two cents in...

It always irritates me to have newcomers placed ahead of me in the rotation.  Frankly that's why I come early, to get more singing in!  Somehow it doesn't seem fair, especially in venues where you're lucky to get 3-4 songs in after being there all night.

I prefer a rotation where the newcomers are placed at the end of the line, where they belong!  

I've seen a KJ use a cork board with tacks to track the rotation using the slips that are turned in.  That system seems to work pretty well.

--Tad  :)

I LOVE that "paid exception" comment, Bill, and I agree with Babs, you rock! Well written post!

And as Babs pointed out, there is room for more than one philosphy on karaoke rotations... as long as you're consistant.

Just drives me bananas to see the "friends" of the kj flirting and laughing and they get special treatment!

Bill, I really like the suggestion about a visual aid such as a whiteboard,
blackboard, or overhead projector showing the rotation list.
I've never seen this used here in Texas and this would be really helpful with the
timing of when to go to the bar to get a drink and restroom visits.