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was there a specific reason you wanted to check my profile revenge?

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Someone show me (1) $150 a night Karaoke Host who was "SUED", "ARRESTED" or had their equipment, discs and livelihood "Confiscated"  for having a burned disc in their case or digital files on a hard drive. ................

These laws or interpretations of the laws are to protect against the PEOPLE SELLING $1,000's ON EBAY  or shipping international etc etc.   MAYBE you might find one MULTIRIGGER who just pushed and copied  his illegal library  one too many times.
and got caught with his hand in the "cookie jar"

But you guy's are just beating this TO DEATH !!!  :whistle:  :whistle:  :whistle:

I agree, every case to date, even beginning with the SPIN/KAPA cases are ALL against multiriggers, copies for sale & hard drive loaders sold on ebay.  Not on has been against a computer user that owns the original media.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Gee, in the past 4 months alone-----let's add this all up....

1) The Sound Choice and Steller Letters....

2) CAVS temporarily updating their download site (so they say)....Many of you with Subscriptions are SOL.

3) The first big federal bust of someone selling loaded hard drives with karaoke music.

4) Karaoke.com no longer offering any computer or hard drive systems (as far as I can tell).  They must has a pretty good reason to give up those kinds of $$$$$$$$.

5) Article in Arizona paper about karaoke piracy 4/27/07:
http://www.azcentral.com/business/artic ... e0428.html

6)...And look what I just found:  
Famous Music VS CAVS usa....Filed 4/17/07
http://dockets.justia.com/docket/court- ... _id-38967/

You're probably right...no one is going to legally come after a KJ.  So go ahead, rant all you want about "protecting" your investment and "not wanting to haul discs" because you won't be HAULING ANYTHING---eventually no bar will hire you.  Even if you are 1:1 ---How can a bar owner be sure you own a disc for every song?  Why would they put their business on the line based on your word?  How long before a Disc-hauling KJ takes all this documention into your gig and gets you fired?  A bar owner is not going to care about what IP justice "speculates" or how you "feel" on this issue.  They will only care about the articles they read, busts being made and legal letters they get.

Sorry, but this problem is so out of control the only cure will be very painful for some.  This industry is on the verve of falling apart.  If you want to be part of the solution, you need to pull your discs out and do things the old fashioned way.  That is the ONLY way to expose the KJ's with NO BUSINESS being in this business.  Someday the stars will align and the laws and technology will fall in place so you can have the best of technology in a regulated way.

By your logic,   NOBODY should be allowed to use descretion in ANY law, and there should be no grey, or allowances for "reasonable use" and common sense.

Hence,

drinking alcohol because it contributes to violence and even DUI behaviour by lowering inhibition should be outlawed for ALL.  Yet, strangely enough, alcohol IS legal  :headscratch:

and how about Cigarettes ?  The same Government that LOVES tax money from their sale, is telling the small bar owners that under NO exceptional circumstances should cigarettes be allowed to be smoked in their bar (a place for adults),  they are just that dangerous ?  So which is it ?  are they legal or illegal ?  Since according to you Ken Cougar, there's no allowance for "grey" ?

You put TOO much faith in a government that sets certain law that IS NOT always  acting in a logical sense, or even reasonably, so according to you there's no area for common sense, we should ALWAYS do exactly what we are told, because the law serves a purpose for ALL equitably in ALL circumstances ?  That's incorrect.  The law does in fact allow for grey in most cases.  Just because some go overboard Ken Cougar, because of those individuals, the KJ should pay with money he doesn't have, and will likely never recoop.  This to me, and I stress TO ME, (because this isn't carved in stone law yet, the law in THIS case does allow for CASE by CASE determination, that is a fact, however YOU and yours claim that's a lie, and instead deem ALL that copy "Guilty of infringment,  Copyright Law, and Fair Use" which currently nowhere susbstantiates your opinion of interpretation. This law DOES allow for EQUITABLE consideration despite how heavily-handed it appears on the surface, it does take into consideration the person who buys the original content has some degree of play, certain rights, some yet to be established in court..But "reasonable" will be a consideration) would not be equitable, fair, or even a CORRECT interpretation of current rough outlined area of a yet to be established LAW...

Your own interpretation of this area of law IS NOT REASONABLE. It's disproportionate payment received from the small guy, hence is not equitable, hence DOES NOT constitute "Equitable law",  or "Fair" (yet of course this is based on MY opinion, which there's clearly an allowance for, and all we have so-far to use given the writing of these doctrines, just as your opinion has yet to be proven incorrect in all cases of the small guy, since it deliberately IS written to allow for intent and reason or vast GREY area's surprisingly enough, even a defense of ignorance which is VERY uncommonly found in law).  Just because a court has full descretion to ruling, does not mean it would find 1:1 ratio copying unfair EVER.  Law is written to deter certain people from going overboard.  Not as a means of playing "Big Bros", and busting everybody for all infractions, and then charging them with an iron fist.  What do you think are court system is ?  That sadistic ?  Do you think it has time and space to bust the :small guy: ?   There's room in jail ?  LMAO

AND:
As (I think) Lonnie touched upon,  NO descretion should be allowed regarding anti-gun use because as we know, ALL over 18 or 21 as adult americans should be allowed to own what's legal, and since there's no merit to grey areas and case by case decision making by your logic something is either legal (which depicts act is good), OR Illegal which ALWAYS means there's no such thing as "reason" within our court system, and by your own logic, you try the individual in a Court of Law for the cumulative damages of ALL infringing parties combined.

You give WAY to much credit to "law makers" Ken Cougar,  Like theory, laws are only laws until in time disproved.  There are allowances for SOME degree of freedom within laws.  We don't live in a police state, and quite honestly, I refuse to.

Sue me !


This isn't only irrational,  it's dangerous logic,  you want to live in a paranoic, police state, that's your own perrogative Cougar.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

In conjunction with your post ..show me a completely HONEST and LAW BIDING ...BAR OWNER  :D  :D  :dancing:

The only peoplein the biz (KJ) who have problems with DIGITAL KJ'S or KJ's using burned BACKUP copies are KJ's who lost jobs or can't get work and need to blame
"PIRATES " AND "UNDERCUTTERS" for their own lack of talent or proffesionalism.

   Show me a judge that never drove legally drunk in the 60's and 70's.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

An argument of "my opinion" is better than  "your opinion", is what this is ending up as  

Now HERE'S the craziest part.  In CASE by CASE review, given phrasing of how lax this area of law is, it might be YOUR opinion that shows your intent was miswillful, and my opinion that exonerates me from guilt regarding "willful intent to misuse", and what amounts to subjective ruling of fairness). It's just THAT lax an area currently, and is yet to be established.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

If what I hear is true, it is estimated that about 80% of the shows are done digital now.  Of that 80% MOST do not have discs to back their show up.  

Based on this, economics 101 says there will be a DEMAND for disc hauling KJ's.  We are seeing just the beginning of a very ugly battle that will change our industry as we know it.  Regardless of how you feel about the legal merit of this issue, the PERCEPTION in the market place will be ANTI-DIGITAL for COMMERCIAL KARAOKE.  

I'm sure you are all very right..  some bar owners will care less.  Especially the tiny hole-in-the-wall joints that only want to pay $75 a night.   But the big "visible" bars and chains that pay well won't want to mess with this and will seek out disc haulers.  It's your business--- you can take your laptop to "Joe's Hole In The Wall Bar" for $75 a night if you want.  So you can spend your time ranting about this, or start pulling your discs out of storage (if you haven't already sold them on EBAY), and get ready for a big business opportunity!

Ken,  Next year in Econ 201, and Government 201

  You'll learn about other factors harming the Karaoke and bar markets, factors that are unrelated to small-scale "copying".  Factors that have a MUCH larger bearing on what will harm CD-G manufacturers and KJ alike if proportionately paying out on the same scale as 1993 for media regarding Karaoke.  Trends in business, Fad, Diminishing returns on investment.



    In Government 201 you will learn how you might have a pristine record, but you still might as well print up the following..

               Our President has been charged for illegal activity in his past.  His wife
           has been charged with violating certain laws.  Although my record might be
             pristine.  All I have to show for it is this bumper sticker

Not everything seems balanced and fair.  Seems that a person will not be able get a job in an area of civil service for even a slight infraction, yet others far less honest, many deliberately violating ethics and law become the CEO's.  I'll be damned if I'm not going to follow a certain degree of reason by reading between lines.  Businesses have rights sure,  but there's no way tiny business people can survive in an inflexible market that's monopolized by, and has laws made ONLY to consider the huge businesses profit margin and nothing else given all aspects of an economy.  Cost of living isn't an unreasonable factor, when making a request that the small guy compromise either.  But as I was stating earlier,  assuming such, businesses pay predetermined sums for use,  what is a "fair use" amount for the small guy given current areas of the market and other areas of use considered ?  They have yet to be established, they are subjective.
Big business.
.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

  Interesting.  To me this indicates the market needs to adjust to the desire and need of the consumer, rather than keep trying to control it !  I don't like being or feeling controlled by big business.  Additionally if a KJ works one night a week for a few hours, I would never fault the KJ for not spending inordinate sums of money.  He will likely NEVER recoop the expense given other factors hurting the market more-so than SMALL-SCALE copying.  Karaoke is likely timed in bars,  DJ's are coming back.  A whole new song and dance.  Less work available and less payout regardless of who you wish to put the onus on.  Fact is "trend" & extraneous laws are also killing the bar industry, and changing entertainment form.  You are putting primary weight on those not paying enough to the market.   View ALL factors before making determinations as to what is actually hurting the market.. DUI busts, indoor clean air act, strict laws, fad changing, etc.      



I receive many letters in "my specific area" threatening me with legal action.  Such "love letters" are quite often "bluff".  Meaning the Atty's sending out the letters know that if "scare tactic" doesn't work, and the other party has a clear concept of how much play he has within current law in a specific area, which takes A LOT into consideration, there is NOTHING more they can do.  I'd like to see the EXACT wording of those Arizona letters. They might be a deliberate lie, or scare tactic and nothing more.


Letters from Atty's are not often factual.  Atty's often are deliberately wrong, but use rhetorical phrasing.   Also,  not all stats you read are factual.   How can they be ?  Who writes such surveys ?  What sample are they taken from that constitutes stats as always being factual ?  What other considerations must be taken into consideration ?   80% doing something wrong might be indicative that current law isn't accepted, hence the businesses MUST accomodate the market, rather than attempt to control it !

I believe there are degrees of compromise.  Decision making that does not within itself hurt a market assuming a person also supports the market (both cases can exist).   However, the big businesses also don't get to step all over the tiny guy who lacks sufficient capital in reimburse a large business person proportionally considering other loss factors.

Last thought.  and then I'm out've here, no really  LOL

Reason for  Grey and Compromise..

   You folks admit that things aren't always fair.  I think there's no argument there.
    So, In a selfish world, I'm not going to break my back because of the cumulative
    sins of others.  I still am entitled to live a semi-comfortable existence without
    having to go overboard because of those that exploit.  I have certain rights too !

_________________
Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Gee,
In your Government 201 class did you learn about the FBI?  In their list of priorities, number 7 is: Combat MAJOR white-collar crime.

The FBI doesn't seem to think this is such SMALL SCALE.....Rumor has it they are just getting started on this one.

Ask the lady in Minnesota....
http://www.startribune.com/467/story/1139222.html

All the bad guys have spoiled it for you 1:1'ers.  Remember in grade school when a large group of the class misbehaved and the whole class was punished?

AO.   You surely have got to be kidding.  Sorry,  I learned that government organizations are usually the least honest.  In fact, I even learned that common sense in most areas, coupled with knowledge of how law works is a more practical means of existing in a grey law where as stated,  CIA, FBI are NOT the most honest of the professions by any stretch of ones imagination. Common sense also taught  me about probability, and money involved in certain stings.  In fact, how 80% of the population will VERY unlikely succumb to an FBI sting  LOL   What I learned is knowledge and reason of how systems work allow one to shed fear of menial jeuvenile highly improbable punitive areas such as "boogie men", and "The police are going to take you away if you don't write a thank you note to Grandma."  

Incidentally, this wasn't Gov 201 I learned this,  This was 4th grade.  A year after I learned "not all you read and see is true".  and,  Just because cousin agnes had a stroke and hairy palms for having extra-marital sex at 51, doesn't mean that Sister Freda telling me this is what happens to all that have an orgasm is true...


Different Strokes...

(I heard this in a different thread )


It's your choice to delude yourself into believing taking risk never pays off Ken Cougar.  It's your choice to think you make your life easier by living a hypervigilant TOTALLY law abiding existance.  But this doesn't mean you might not get shot tonight by a drive-by at the gas station (at some sociopathic individuals whim) or attacked by a moose on your way to 7-11 and shish-kabobbed.

It's your life,   and it's also ours.

I work a steady job and get paid a set amount.

ANother person goes to the casino and wins at gambling (something I don't do), they reap rewards and consequences of their actions.

It's THEIR choice, and THEIR life to take chances in and enjoy skydiving, or sit under their bed awaiting the return of the boogie man.

.
.

I have to go now,  I'm getting goofy... It's TGIF happy hour, and I'm going to go to CVS and steal a piece of candy from the candy bin...  Even I must live on the edge at times.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

OK,  Lets make this easy


Next argument


But Kappy,  Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you. You never heard about "The Central Scrutinizer" ?




There is NO similarity between a counterfeiting person SELLING millions of illegal dollars worth of content,  and  small business person using reasonable judgement to arrive at what he considers "equitably fair use".  The law allows for reasonable and subjective interpretation.  Do what you are comfortable doing, and LIVE AND LET LIVE.

.
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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I have all my discs sitting on the counter just as they always have since I started.  If I have to, I shut the computer off & pull discs - won't change my show one way or another.  My players are all set up as well - for customer discs - my computer is set-up in such a way that there is no access to the internal cd rom drive.
By the way, TECHNICALLY cdg's ARE a digital format.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Well this isn't all that far off.  It's the ones that buy the pre-loaded drives with thousands of songs, goes out multi copy them & multirigs them, buys cheap equipment & goes in to charge $100 or less that are screwing up the business - i've seen some good shows & good kj's get booted out for these lowballer pirates that would charge $50-100 less per night than what the good kj was charging.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I think this is the first post I strongly disagree with from you.  If a kj/company doesn't have the money to invest on discs to either run off of the discs or transfer to a computer, then they shouldn't be trying to run a show at all - be it 1 night a week, month, year or 7 nights.  This in my eyes is blatent stealing if they copy ANY music to do a show without paying for the original disc. 

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

This case WAS NOT about a 1:1 computer user.  This case was about pre-loading multiple hard drives & selling them for profit on ebay.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Probably because of their lawsuit with Famous which was filed in mid April.  About the time people were questioning about the site if I recall.  But it does LOOK like their download site is up & running.  I don't know, i've never used that before so don't know how it works.  Although doing some quick song searches, it don't look like they have a whole lot available.



Blatent pircay bust - not a typical computer user.



Yep, the CAVS case probably has something to do with this.



Again mainly directing toward file sharing, swapping, copying without buying original material.



Still looking for the actual details, but willing to bet they are going to be charged as one pre-loading hard drives & selling them off of ebay, since they don't give original discs away with their sales - since CAVS don't actually create music, this one isn't like the case of Famous Music vs Stellar (Pop Hits Monthly) for re-creating music without proper authorization - anyone ever hear the outcome of that one or is it still going on?

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

The reference to the piracy busts help to indicate how out of control the bootleg karaoke hard drive and laptop business is.  It has hurt the industry SO much they cannot look the other way anymore and unfortunately, you 1:1er's are caught in the crosshairs.   It would not have hurt the industry so much if the KJ's didn't buy these systems loaded, or if they continued to buy discs 1:1.  But that hasn't been the case BY A LONG SHOT!   Perhaps you all don't realize the extent to which the piracy is out of control and how many $$$$$ are involved.  The bad guys abused things and ruined it for the rest of you.

But how do you suggest we all tell the difference between a so called "legit" 1:1er (someone who owns a disc for EVERY song on their system), and the "semi-legit" 1:1er (someone who bought their drive partially loaded, then loaded their collection on), versus the mulit-riggers and total non disc buyers?  Everyone can say their collections are "at home" or carry a random set of discs with them and make that claim.