Karaoke Forums

How large a selection does one really need?  

I hope this subject hasn’t been discussed recently; I haven’t seen it when reviewing old threads, so hopefully it can make for interesting discussion.  

First off, this is more of a side-gig/hobby for me, so I’m not computerized and all that you guys need who are hard-core into making money with this.

Anyways… I started out with about 1800 songs, just CD+Gs, with around 100 Christmas songs and 100 show-tunes.  This was mostly home use, but I did take that out a few times.  The list is pretty diverse, and everybody was able to easily find at least a few songs to sing.  Not big crowd mind you, but we had lots of fun.

Since then, I’ve gotten a CAVS system, just the simple one with the Super CDs, and (not counting a 1125-Spanish songs set), I’ve got probably 4700 songs on that, considering the very-few repeats.  

I’ve taken both systems out (which coincidentally don’t make for many repeats), but I’ve also just taken the CAVS stuff out, cause I don’t have the songs listed in the same book.

I’m sure in any case, someone may not have found one particular song they may have wanted, but I’m sure they found plenty they were happy with.  

I remember going to a karaoke night at a bar, and (adding up the songs per page and number of pages) there were over 40,000 songs, although there were many repeats.  

Anyways, I remember shortly after opening the book, my eyes kinda glazed over, and I just shut the book.  I picked in my head a couple songs I wanted to sing, then dug through it to find the numbers.  

How many songs do you think one actually needs to satisfy the average audience?  

More the better!?

Enough is Enough!?

What say you?  

_________________
Hate is like taking poison, hoping the other guy gets sick

this discussion is about as old as when the SECOND karaoke manufacturer burst into the market! ! But it's a GOOD discussion, nontheless!

About the CAVS... that's a whole other discussion... many of the supercdgs were found to have been made without the various karaoke manus' permission!

I know for me, it's not a question of how MANY you have, but how many GOOD songs... I had over 4,000 before I started hosting, and STILL didn't feel comfortable with the thought, because I had spent a good amount of time and money getting songs that meant something to me and a few friends... the newer hits, etc... but I KNEW I didn't have a good CORE. A "foundation" if you will.

I partnered with a friend named Dave, and we merged our libraries together. I kept track of what songs were sang... fully 60% off his stuff alone! And 85% of THOSE were just on the foundation set from SC!

Once I got the SC Foundation set, I knew I could do it. Dave and I were good friends, but we were both "alpha" types, and were butting heads on which direction the company should go. Ultimately, it was better for us to split and keep the friendship.

I'll tell ya that the $700 I spent on the foundation hurt me like none other... but at my first show alone, 78% of the songs sang were just off that set!

I never regretted my decision!

I think there is an ideal, yet practical answer to that question, then a completely different real-life, yet impractical answer to that question.

First, the ideal yet practical:

Honestly, of the 12,000 or so songs I have in my book, I BET I could write down ALL of the songs that EVERYONE has EVER sang at my karoake, and it would total less than 1,000. So, ideally for me, and practically for all singers, there appears to be little to no reason to have anything except those songs.

HOWEVER:

The real-life, yet completely impractical answer is:

The mere size of the book matters. Singers DO notice the SIZE of the book, and make a superficial judgement on how good your karaoke show is just based on how much print is in your book. It is in our collective psyche as Americans - MORE IS BETTER - excess is what it is all about.

Though we all know the typical singer has been singing the EXACT same 5-6 songs for the last 5-6 years, and rarely try anything new, they like having the OPTION.

I have told this story before:

Last year when I redid my books, I went through the painstaking process of streamlining it so that it only contained the best version of each song, and absolutely no duplicates. What I ended up with was a book of approximately 8600 unduplicated songs, which I squeezed into a 1/2 inch binder.

It wasn't but a few sessions after I created these books that I started hearing people question me on why the guy up the street had more songs than me, and that they perferred his show due to his larger song selection, even though my system is FAR superior and this other guy has the personality of a wet rock (slightly more than a dry rock, I guess).

I went to check it out, and this guy had a book that was certainly LARGER than mine in proportion, but he admitted to me that it contained about 5,000 DUPLICATED songs in LARGE print, which equated to about 2800 non-duplicated entries.

YET, for SIX MONTHS, I had someone almost weekly tell me this guy had more songs than me. So what did I do? I redid my book to contain my duplicates and stuck it in a 1 1/2 inch binder, and now my book is bigger than his in proportion. No one has commented on the other guy having more songs since!!


I will tell you a good success story, though.

There is a karaoke KJ that actually TRAVELS the southeast with shows in Atlanta, GA, Greenville, SC, Myrtle Beach, SC, Hilton Head, SC, Charleston, SC, and Savannah, GA. He told me once back in 1996 that he pulls down from $400-800 a show and works contracted gigs six days a week leaving one day a week to pick up private gigs at an even higher rate.

I used to attend his show in Greenville, SC on Thursday nights, and he would routinely pack about 1,000 people into his show. It was shoulder to shoulder madness in a pretty darn big bar. If you were one of the FIRST people to sign up for the karoake, you MIGHT get to sing twice between 9:00 and 2:00 a.m., otherwise, you waited for your one turn up on the stage in front of the huge audience.

Guess how many songs this guy had in his book? About 350. AND he would not, under any circumstances, let you sing off of your own disc.

What he had done was ONLY included the top of the top CROWDPLEASER songs in his book. If the mere intro of the songs didn't get the crowd going, it wasn't in the book, so it really didn't matter that much if the singer sucked or not, everyone was ALWAYS into it. The guy had about 4-5 costume changes to go along with the genres of the songs and would WORK the audience into each of the songs. It made for an ELECTRIC show that was more about the audience than the singers, and was not for the casual singer, as the embarrassment factor was through the roof if you couldn't at least act like you were having fun and pretty confident up there.

So, unless you can really pull it off like this guy, which I don't think 98 out of 100 of us could, I think the answer to the "how many songs" question for the average karaoke KJ is always going to be YOU BETTER HAVE ENOUGH. And the question of "what is enough" is always going to be CONCEIVEABLY as much as or more than your direct competition!!

_________________
C Mc
KJ, FL

Yep, like stated size of the book 'seems' to matter.  However if you are filling your book with a bunch of non-singable garbage quality crap, then it won't matter anyway.
I'll take quality over quantity any day.  I now have over 11k non-duplicated songs myself & get the WOW you guys have everything, this place down the street advertises every song & don't have this or this - YET what do they sing, the same songs that everyone else sings.  A large book is a nice bonus, but completely unnecessary for probably 90% of singers.
I used to buy discs the second they hit the store shelves only to find that many MANY discs either only got used once or twice, or I am willing to bet I still have discs that - except for me playing it when I got it home - have never been used one time.  This was a few years ago, I started buying what people were requesting - provided it was a disc that I could use other than the requested song (back before custom discs).  
So the moral basically is, if you have what the majority wants to sing & good quality versions of those songs, you do not need a huge book or thousands of songs to be successful, sure it's nice & if you can fill in gaps with quality discs cheaply, go for it, but I wouldn't pay $15-20 for a disc anymore that MAY or may not get used.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Wow TopherM, I can always count on you for a very comprehensive and informative post.  

I was thinking about the size of the book having value, as you stated.  But I wonder, even though the guy complained to you that your book was smaller than the other guy’s, he did keep coming, right?  I suppose there is a lot more to it than just the size of the book, but all else being equal, I suppose the size of the book is of some value.  

Maybe next time I update and have another book printed, I’ll get larger letters.  Actually, on my old book from the old CG+Gs, I printed them up with larger (16 font size) letters, but mostly for ease of reading.  The CAVS book I had the dealer make for me, and he said he could make it with bigger letters, but they didn’t come very big, and they’re difficult for some to read, especially in a dark bar.

_________________
Hate is like taking poison, hoping the other guy gets sick

I started out with sets, like “Oldies” sets, “Country”, “Motown”, “Disco” etc etc, that gave me all the basics to cover the different genres.  I wasn’t looking for just what I’d want to sing, cause even for just at-home use, I have a wide variety of people singing.  

Same with the CAVS sets, they’re all variety, which helps.  

I didn’t mean to get into a discussion about CAVS system, it’s just what I happened to buy, but I’m happy to hear anything anyone wants to share.  I wouldn’t necessarily promote CAVS, except for the casual user. It seems to be a pretty-good bargain as for how many songs one gets for the money. well over 1000 songs on each disc, which makes for a light load.  Yeah, the load-up time can be a pain, but it’s easily managed.  

I think, choosing wisely, a guy could start with relatively few songs, like I said, when I had only 1800, everybody seemed to be able to find plenty to sing.  I’d imagine that the larger the crowd, the more one would want to have so people don’t have to share the same songs.  

One place down the street (house system) had a pretty small list, probably a couple thousand, and although I didn’t go that often, I do remember after a year-or-so, it started getting pretty old.

_________________
Hate is like taking poison, hoping the other guy gets sick

Very wise.    :)

_________________
Hate is like taking poison, hoping the other guy gets sick

I did the same thing and I kept one book with big print in case somebody couldnt read the smaller font. And it was from the days that a lot of dupes were still in plus had the new selectoi9ns in separate section.

I never got any complaints but one night a little gal whom I never seen before came up and got a book How come your books are so little?  Well here... Iff you want sift thru everything we got you can use this book. She took the little one. Later on we haqd a good giggle over that ..

We have about 13k karaoke and 9k dj.. If I had good records Id prune that in half or maybe more than that...

_________________
Join The Karaokle Singers Social Network. Upload Your Music!!

That's true too, and that kind of is the flipside to a small book, you always have to add to your selection to keep it fresh.  Again, you don't have to buy everything that comes out, not only is it cost prohibitive in most cases, chances are you are going to be getting something that no one cares about in the first place.  Get what is requested from your singers & you'll be doing good.  Your books will grow in time anyway - especially if you are mobile, you'll get different requests from different clubs.  Couple key things:

   *Keep track of every song requested
   *The date requested
   *Which club it was requested at
   *The name of the requestor (helps with repeated requests from same persons),
   *Way to contact them via email/myspace/etc.  to let them know when you do get their request in.

This will help if you get multiple requests for one song at different clubs, then that's probably a song to get soon, if it's one request from the one singer at Joes club that ONLY wants that one Sonny James tune - your call, will that disc be used anywhere else?  Is this a good customer requesting the song, or is it a water sipper?  Keep in mind who is requesting, they should at least be a spender at your show - but again, it's your call.  If they are bringing people in that spend, may be another consideration.
When I started in '94 on my own, my library consisted of approx 1800 songs on laserdisc.  I just hit over the 10k mark last year.  Selectively & carefully choosing songs from requests allow me to get more quality songs that will be used more often - sometimes it does backfire & a disc will sit on the shelf after someone tries it a couple times, but not as often as it used to.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

... Yep, and most singers sing the same couple songs week after week.    :yes:

_________________
Hate is like taking poison, hoping the other guy gets sick

Yea I finally decided not to wholesale buy every month... Most around here have their own systems and buy the new songs they want and put them on flash drives in the zip file.. In fact I encourage them to do that.

_________________
Join The Karaokle Singers Social Network. Upload Your Music!!

Can I throw my  :2cents:  in the pot, from a customer only viewpoint?

(i'm gonna assume you said yes... )

I don't think, personally, that "quantity" matters near as much as "quality". Now don't get me wrong... size does matter , in certain situations. But not karaoke books.

The most important thing to me, as long as you have a decent amount of songs to choose from, is if you're staying current with your list. Nothing appeals more than seeing your favorite NEW songs that are out on radio in your KJ's book. That "Wow, they've got this new song on karaoke already, I wanna try it"..... factor, would keep me interested.  Of the two places in town, one KJ has a huge list but it takes them a while to get the new stuff. (i guess they feel their collection is big enough...) After almost a YEAR of me singing "Black Horse and a Cherry Tree" from my own disc, she just 2 weeks ago told me "oh, I got that song now, try my version".... Well, hell, it's about da.mn time!! The other place in town, gets the new hit songs as soon as they are available on karaoke. THAT is the place I prefer to go..... I don't have to bother packing my own personal cdg's...... she's got them all too:)

.

_________________
♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

lets just pop into the boys room to compare the size of your errr playlists

_________________
"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Now on the flipside from a kj standpoint, I believe in keeping current to a point.  Like I said I used to buy ALL the new stuff only to find that 80-90% of it never even came out of the jewel case it was stored in, but yep I had it.  As far as songs on the radio now - most of them are considered 'flavor of the week' songs & have no staying power.  More in the rock/pop catagory, newer country tends to last & get used more & for newer songs I will tend to get country first over the others - unless I get requests for something new.  Otherwise I will wait as well - not necessarily 2 years after it's a hit (unless I never get requests for it), but I won't be the first on the block to have it anymore.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

The last few months I had NEW singers coming in to my show.  I was surprised at some of the requests I was getting from these NEW singers.  I didn't even know I had these songs! -  But then again now they do sing them every week !!  lol

How Many Songs ?  --You just never know who will ask for WHAT
You can never have enough....but then again when you think about it ONLY 60 songs at the most get sung each night!
#1 Quallity of selection- Have the right variety of songs
#2 Quality of reproduction - (Soundchoice vs Nutech)
#3 Quantity of songs - Not as important if you have what everyone requests

The problem with buying all of the new songs right when they come out, via Pop Hits Monthly or the like, is that 95% of those songs will never be sung again after about 6-8 months of when they come out.

That is why Pop Hits monthly disks are about $22.00 new, but after only ONE YEAR or less you can get them for about $3 each.

So, if you set the precident that you are going to IMMEDIATELY have the songs once they come out on karaoke discs, you better be ready to really pay some big money for a bunch of songs that really won't get played much in the longrun.

I, however, buy all of these new songs when they are about 3 months old and 1/2 the price, and you can then also tell which ones are going to be keepers and which ones are just flashes in the pan.

Just as an example, when was the last time you heard someone sing the following songs:

Daniel Powter - "Bad Day"
Nelly Furtado - "Promiscuous"
James Blunt - "You're Beautiful"
Gnarls Barkley - "Crazy"
Sean Paul - "Temperature"
Justin Timberlake - "Sexyback"
The Fray - "Over My Head (Cable Car)"
Shakira - "Hips Don't Lie"
Natasha Bedingfield - "Unwritten"
Chamillionaire - "Ridin'"

Those, my friends, are the top 10 best selling singles of 2006 according to Nielson Media.

I play Temperature as one of my filler songs and very very VERY occationally hear someone attempt Crazy. Beyond that, not a peep!! A year from now, these are the kinda songs someone will sing once or twice a year and someone will say...I haven't heard that song in forever!!

KJ #1 spent about $900-1000 for a yearly subscription to all of the PHM genres to make sure they had each and every one of these songs before anyone.

KJ #2 (me) got them all three months later on one or two Soundchoice compilation discs for $20-40.

So did KJ #1 make $800+ extra dollars in that three month period for having the newest songs? Probably not. So in the end, it is a VERY easy business decision!!

_________________
C Mc
KJ, FL

Since I just use books, they look them up themselves instead of requesting it from me.  

I have a decent selection, and if they don’t find the exact song they’re looking for, they should be able to find plenty others.  

I don’t think it’s necessary to have thousands of unpopular songs just to accommodate those few cases, especially when they’ll likely just find another, and forget that you didn’t have the one.  

JMHO

_________________
Hate is like taking poison, hoping the other guy gets sick

Man, it would probably be good to have a bar with only older folks…

less likely to have to worry about the updating thing,

except maybe for some Country, which would be okay with me anyways.

_________________
Hate is like taking poison, hoping the other guy gets sick

Just FYI, because I was curious I looked up that guy I was talking about with the book with like 350 songs. His name is Ed Miller and his show is called "Ed Miller's Karaoke Mayhem."

Looks like after all these years he is still playing all of the same clubs throughout SC and GA. If you ever get a chance to go see one of his shows, it is a real spectacle.

_________________
C Mc
KJ, FL

Well, I'm gonna agree to disagree. (with the people who disagreed with me, Lmao, I'm too lazy at the moment to stick your quotes here) I've seen too many people get excited about seeing new songs out on karaoke.... Some may not be lasting favorites, but some would. I'm not saying EVERY new song on radio, I said new HITS. Some of Gretchen Wilson's songs are still going strong, some of Big & Rich... lots of others.  If it's a GOOD song, it's gonna stay around.

Isn't that the price of business though? Kinda like if you owned a mercantile.... you wouldn't know what would sell and what wouldn't until you stuck it on your shelf.

I dunno... just my view of it. I thought my statement of "size doesn't always matter" might make some of you feel better:)

EDITED IN: Lonnie, I just read your post a little closer. I think we actually agree... cause you're saying basically the same thing. Not ALL new songs, just the big hit ones. If they are on radio 24/7 until you get sick of hearing them, then I for one think it would make a great (popular) karaoke song. And of course, I am talking primarily country. I don't sing much else, and that's what I hear the most of around here too.

.

_________________
♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥