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knightshow
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 Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:19 pm |
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karaoketools @ Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:31 am wrote: ...For those of you who may not be aware, MTU paid for legal research on what is CURRENTLY legal, after SC and Stellar Records sent out the now famous "press releases". Everyone in Karaoke should read the results at: http://www.mtu.com/support/copyright-notes.htmPlease post this URL wherever you visit. Its results need to be made public to stop SC and Stellar's damage and intimidation of the business owners who hire YOU... I have a question on the link for the SC and Stellar Records action and your research... I'm a pretty intelligent guy, but this part got me: on the MYTH#2, you state the four reasons for determining fair use. They're not listed per se, but examples are given. However this is interesting: Quote: "Courts would likely conclude that KJ´s who copy their legally obtained CDG discs onto a computer or other device in order to provide added services to consumers or to back-up their collections, or to better manage their large CDG disc collections would still be protected by fair use."
HOW is this determination arrived at? Not that I disagree with such a statement, but I would love to see the proof therein, for it's my particular stance I took as well. Admittedly a court case would be the deciding factor... but you make a large leap of assumption that this is true. I mean, everyone knew OJ was guilty in the killing of his ex-wife and her lover, yet he was found innocent on the Federal charges...
Also, have you tried to talk to SC (or Stellar) on their sites or in person about any of this?
Thank you for your time!
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EElvis
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Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:17 am |
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Knightshow,
Quote: but you make a large leap of assumption that this is true
The above statement was not made by MTU. It was made by a Firm of Intellectual Property Rights Lawyers that have a website. Therefore the name IPLAW.
MTU simply invested in paying then to research The legalalities as they exist. Maybe the website itself will explain more.
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exweedfarmer
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Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:58 am |
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karaoketools @ Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:48 am wrote: It is clear that you never needed to think about why MTU may have spent close to $100,000 to evolve the KMA format. My guess is you are not a product developer, who works with customers to solve their problems.
Well, even if he's not a developer I am. I feel the need for hip-waders. After reading your lengthy post four or five times I still don't know what you were driving at. What is this $100,000 KMA format? What does it do? Why would we want to use it? Does is sound better than WMA? Is it smaller? What is the $100,000.00 advantage?
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Murray C
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Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:44 am |
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knightshow @ Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:19 pm wrote: on the MYTH#2, you state the four reasons for determining fair use. They're not listed per se, but examples are given.
HOW is this determination arrived at? Not that I disagree with such a statement, but I would love to see the proof therein, for it's my particular stance I took as well.
One of the footnotes on the MTU page:
"Fair use" is a limitation on copyright owners' exclusive right "to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies." 17 U.S.C. § 106(1). It is codified at 17 U.S.C. § 107, which provides:
Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include--
(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
The IPJustice findings/advice can bee seen here:
http://www.ipjustice.org/karaokefairuse.shtml
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karaoketools
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Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:24 am |
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EElvis @ Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:17 am wrote: Knightshow, Quote: but you make a large leap of assumption that this is true The above statement was not made by MTU. It was made by a Firm of Intellectual Property Rights Lawyers that have a website. Therefore the name IPLAW. MTU simply invested in paying then to research The legalalities as they exist. Maybe the website itself will explain more. MTU got fed up with the intimidation that SC and Stellar were threatening on the Venue owners that hire you, AND by their statments that it "IS ILLEGAL" to import discs to a hard drive, and that MTU and other vendors products were illegal. Being action focused, we did something about it.
Since there is no court case, in spite of all SC's efforts over the years, then one can only surmise what the outcome might be. IPJustice.org is Internationally recognized. They presented a CONSUMER focus of the law, with substantial USA case law examples quoted. SC and Stellar are interpreting from a BUSINESS focus, and... didn't quote a single case law to substantiate their position. It also was clear, from a blatant error that IPJustice pointed to in SC's "PR" that no lawyer was consulted before they prepared and send out their work. The cases quoted by IPJustice could be used if a suit ever went to court in the USA.
MTU has been an advocate for HONEST business and Hosts since 1996. We have been contacted by Hosts who were selling their business because SC was threatening to sue whoever hires them. They claim they bought all their SC discs. I think that is extreme. Thus, we paid for the research to try to quell the fears of other Professionals in the Industry.
My prior post presented why MTU developed our KMA format, and some of its benefits. $100,000? Yes... over the 9 years we have worked on and polished it, that is a realistic amount. Additionally, after reading the link file that TTowntenor posted, I commented about my personal experience and knowledge of FREE formats, giving examples of; Ogg Vorbis, OpenOffice, and OSCommerce freeware, two of which were quoted in the link article. I re-read my post and felt I did justice to the subject. Nuff said...  _________________ Making Karaoke the best it can be! http://mtu.com
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exweedfarmer
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Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:24 pm |
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karaoketools @ Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:24 am wrote: My prior post presented why MTU developed our KMA format, and some of its benefits. $100,000? .... I re-read my post and felt I did justice to the subject. Nuff said... Well sir, if you actually said anything in that prior post about the virtues of KMA it must have been between the lines. You said it was really good but you didn't say how or why.
Is KMA an audio compression format independently developed by MTU?
If so, is it in any way better than WMA? Smaller, faster, better sound?
Is it an encryption format? (That's been my guess).
Is KMA just a way to force customers to stay with Hoster?
PowerKaraoke: You folks wrote a KMA reader, can you shed any light on this?
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DannyG2006
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Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:05 pm |
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exweedfarmer @ Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:24 pm wrote: karaoketools @ Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:24 am wrote: My prior post presented why MTU developed our KMA format, and some of its benefits. $100,000? .... I re-read my post and felt I did justice to the subject. Nuff said... Well sir, if you actually said anything in that prior post about the virtues of KMA it must have been between the lines. You said it was really good but you didn't say how or why. Is KMA an audio compression format independently developed by MTU? If so, is it in any way better than WMA? Smaller, faster, better sound? Is it an encryption format? (That's been my guess). Is KMA just a way to force customers to stay with Hoster? PowerKaraoke: You folks wrote a KMA reader, can you shed any light on this? I know that Latshaw has the ability to generate songlists from KMA, RoxBox has a convertor so breaking MTU's KMA is possible.
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freddt
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Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:16 pm |
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PLEASE STOP EMAILING ME! ALREADY SHIPPED THE DVDS IM NOT SELLIN ANYMORE , BECAUSE I DONT HAVE ANYMORE, FOR THE PPL WHO ARE LOOKING FOR "ripKma" KEEP LOOKING! ILL GIVE U A HINT.... "TRI"  THATS THE HINT. WELL AS FOR THE GUY WHO OFFERME TO MEET IN PERSON AND HE WOULD PAY 900 BUCKS FOR THE DVDS , , HEY... IM NOT STUPID.... IM NOT DOING IT... YEAH U CAN TRACK ME DOWN... ILL PAY FOR WHATEVER CRIME I MADE! HEY IM A CRIMINAL! AND U CANT STOP ME! ANYWAYS.... I WANNA SELL THE COMPUTER THE FILES CAME IN.. YOU INTERESTED? PCG-K45 SONY... ITS A LAPTOP PENTIUM 4 AND THE FILES ARE IN THERE. AND IT HAS HOSTER ON IT.
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Flipper
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Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:26 pm |
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This forum is getting really strange...Definately a waste of time trying to help this guy :O
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knightshow
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Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:42 pm |
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karaoketools @ Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:24 pm wrote: We have been contacted by Hosts who were selling their business because SC was threatening to sue whoever hires them. They claim they bought all their SC discs. I think that is extreme. Thus, we paid for the research to try to quell the fears of other Professionals in the Industry... yes, and I'm one of those too.
here's the kicker. Say SC or Stellar DOES go forward on a lawsuit... not against a true pirate that has multilibraries off one purchased set of discs, or worse yet, someone that sells the stuff... say they go forward with a lawsuit against someone who MERELY converted what they own. Even if they have the discs ONSITE when they're cited.
you are making the assumption that the court will cide with the converted disc owners that still own their discs. Say some court gets a wild hair up their bum... and decides a no-nonsense application of applying the law AS IT IS CURRENTLY WRITTEN. In that case, ANYBODY that runs a show with a computer that has the info stored on the hard drive... ANYBODY that converts their legal discs... will be paying a fine of upwards of $250,000 and up to six months jail PER TRACK.
Are you guys going to pay such a fine for that user that says "hey, mtu says it's legal" because right now you're coming down with the assumption that common sense is going to prevail??
I kinda don't think you will!
And that in a nutcase is the problem. It MAY be nothing but a huge threat... but right now, I'm of the mindset that who wants to deal with that garbage??!! So rather than deal with them on the disc issue, I just said "screw it... I'm a part timer anyway. I can go flip burgers and not have to deal with a lawsuit of THAT proportion!
Sheesh!
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karyoker
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Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:54 pm |
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I know a phisherman and a troller when i see one..
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Charmin_Gibson
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Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:01 pm |
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.... Nevermind.
Laughing so da.mned hard over here that I can't even friggin' type. LMAO
.
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EElvis
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Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:13 am |
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Quote: "hey, mtu says it's legal"
I have not read one statement from MTU Stating the above is a fact and making a gaurantee. They Point to a group of Intellectual Property Law Specialists who have researched the point and stated from their point it is legal.
Only the courts will be able to give a difinative answer. untill then we are in the [shadow=indigo][glow=red]Twilight Zone[/glow][/shadow]~~~~~~~~~~~
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knightshow
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Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:00 pm |
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Yes they do! Or at least they put such a positive spin on it that it seems to imply that the right is just about yours.
http://www.mtu.com/support/copyright-notes.htm
Specifically:
Under the Myth #1 Quote: Since consumers are permitted to copy their video and music under Sony Betamax and Diamond Rio, it is entirely reasonable to expect, should it ever be addressed by the courts, that consumers would likewise have a fair use right to copy their CDG discs for private non-commercial uses. Thus consumers who copy their CDG discs onto their computer hard drives would be protected by copyright law´s fair use privilege also. AND Quote: MYTH #2: Copyright law forbids copying a CDG disc for any commercial purposes.
TRUTH: While a commercial use weighs against fair use, copyright law permits copying a CDG disc in a number of commercial circumstances. Commercial use, does not by itself, determine if it is an illegal use. and in the final part of that Quote: Courts would likely conclude that KJ´s who copy their legally obtained CDG discs onto a computer or other device in order to provide added services to consumers or to back-up their collections, or to better manage their large CDG disc collections would still be protected by fair use.
and finally Quote: MYTH #4: A KJ must only use original CDG discs in commercial performances, never a copy.
TRUTH: There is no requirement that the original CDG disc must be used in a commercial performance by a KJ. Unless the KJ has waived his ordinary fair use rights to use a lawful CDG disc (by signing a contract), then he could expect to legally copy the files to his computer.
As explained above, traditional fair use rights apply to karaoke CDG discs.
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kayleigh
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Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:17 pm |
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I know this is off-topic, but IP Justice just posted updated information regarding their research for MTU... http://ipjustice.org/wp/2007/02/22/karaoke_legal_myths/ (I think KnightShow posted quotes from it above). I'd like to see specific legislative or case law on the books on this topic myself, but it's nice to know some prevailing legal opinions on this subject, all the same.
On-topic... Just because a hard drive has programs on it doesn't mean the licenses for the software/songs come with it. (They don't.) If I sell a computer, it gets wiped down to the bone unless it comes with a license for the OS, then it gets that OS and nothing else.
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Murray C
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Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:18 am |
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Quote: Knightshow: "Are you guys going to pay such a fine for that user that says "hey, mtu says it's legal" " MTU are merely saying that according to research conducted on their behalf by IPJustice, that it is legal. They could have kept this information to themselves, after all, they paid for it. But they chose to share the information they received from IPJustice for the benefit of others in the industry. Throughout their article, they reference to the IPJustice findings. Quote: According to IP Justice´s legal research, CDG disc owners can feel comfortable making backup copies and other fair use copies of their discs. US Courts have also upheld the right to format-shift media by copying it to another device such as a computer hard drive or MP3 player for more convenient use.
Of course, it is up to each individual as to how they would use and act on this information. Knightshow has clearly indicated his stance. But no, MTU could not be held responsible for paying any incurred fines. That would be a bit like saying that your friend is liable for your losses if you made a bad investment decision based on advice he gave you that he said he got from his investment adviser. Yeah, right!
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TTowntenor
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Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 10:07 am |
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I've read through on the MTU forum before & swore they have stated something to the effect that IF at any time you are using their program AND you own & can PROVE every single song in the computer you have the original media for, that they would actually assist you in the legal battle if it came down to it. However if there is even ONE song that you do not have original media for, you are on your own.
Maybe karaoketools can clarify. I know I saw it somewhere, but can't find the post at this time.
<edit> http://forum.mtu.com/showthread.php?t=8364
The last post on this page & the last line.
<edit 2>ok apparantly you need to be a member to read the forum. 
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