Karaoke Forums

Sorry, I tried to respond to a post and messed it all up...  

Thanks for clarifiication.  I know that watts don't equal volume, but a speaker with a higher sensitivity will get louder than one with less.  I say "volume" instead of "SPL" just because I don't know if some people will know what I'm talking about.  I don't see a contradiciton in what I said from what you said, although you probably said it better.  

I think that's what I was sayinig, as well, but again, maybe you explained it better.  

I was referring specifically to the lower frequencies because  those are the ones that will be lacking.  If a speaker, say a sub is rated 40dB to 180dB (+/- 10dB), you can bet it's the lowest frequencies that will be lacking.  Same with a mainspeaker.   And it's not rare at all to see a subwoofer rated at +/-10dB.  

I'm always glad to learn more, though, so thanks again for the clarifications, and corrections  


Edit:  In fact, I'm reviewing your past posts now, getting a lot of good info.  

well I think i was asking along the line of... rule of thumb of powering speakers properly... since from my readings on here i've heard different theories.  Since I'm a home user , even when I upgrade I won't be buying 500watts speakers anytime soon.  (unless i win the lottery and buy a big A** mansion)  but no I live in a  decent size townhouse for now.  I'm actually pretty happy with my "affordable" phonics system.  But if I ever want to get speakers that are more powerful, get a power amp with it etc... want to know what is "right" and economical at the same time. Sure, I understand now wattage does not necessary = volume, but chances are when i DO upgrade i will get speakers that can handle more power, therefore I just wanted to know once again.. the rule of thumb without getting TOO technical .    

And NO i never push any speakers (car, home theatre, karaoke) to their limits... seems sortof silly to do that... I doubt any speakers sound great when pushed to their limits.

Then now i have a question as well.  So wattage doesn't equal volume, but if you have a 12 inch speaker with 500/1000 wattage, and another 12in with 300/600 wattage.   How will you choose based on the spec?  Would you necessary choose a higher wattage speaker if your amp has enough power to drive it? or does high wattage speaker indicate inefficiency?

Acoustic Audio Professional Series  ($60.00 on ebay, new, they claim retail is around 750)
# Model BR12 DJ Speaker
# 500 Watts RMS to 1000 Watts Maximum Per Speaker
# Minimum Required Power: 10 Watts
# Woofer: 12 Inch
# Frequency Response: 28Hz - 20 KHz
# Efficiency / Sensitivity: 99dB @ 1 watt 1 meter
# Impedance: 8 Ohm

Yamaha Br12  ($220.00 on musician friend)
#12" (30cm) High Power Woofer
#1" (25mm) Pure Titanium Compression Driver
#97 dB Sensitivity
#300 Watt Program/ 600 Watt Peak Power Handling

I think if you buy the packages you should be fine... Obviously from the reviews.. plenty of people are satisfied with the Yamahas.... I dont' think anyone really buy any sort of speakers (at least for home use) based on what happens when turned up 100 percent... I am pretty sure 40% or is about all you need to go on any of those sets...   Unless your house is huge....

I'd probably concentrate more on how to make sure you have clean sound etc coming out from the laptop, and vocals.  (IE cables for speakers and speakers)  I wouldn't worry at all if these packages are "loud" enough for home use... i'm positive they will be plenty loud.

In the case of the speakers above, the Acoustic Audio clearly has better audio specs and in an ideal world would sound better. BUT, this is a perfect example of where pure audio specs can be misleading.

I have never heard of Acoustic Audio, but I'll try to be unbiased just based on that. The Acoustic Audio speaker has the following advantages over the Yamaha based on the specs:

1) They handle 500 watts program compared to 300 watts program for the Yamaha. This means that when powered properly, the Acoustic Audio is able to handle more power, which means it will more efficiently handle the input and in theory output a better sound.

2) The SPL, as discussed previously, of the Acoustic Audio is 99 compared to the Yamaha's 97. That means that it will output a higher peak volume than the Yamaha.

So why is one a $220 speaker and one a $60 speaker, when the $60 speaker has better specs?

It is all about quality components, which is directly proportional to how long that speaker is going to last.

Think of it this way. Could you make a 500 HP car engine out of 100% aluminun parts that would allow your car to reach a top speed of 80 MPH? Sure.

Now would you rather have that or a 300 HP engine made out of 100% stainless steel parts that only has a top speed of 70 mph?

Do you see how the latter would certainly cost more and although it may not have the same performance specs, it is just a better engine?

Well I would bet the same thing is going here. Of course no one can make and sell a high-quality speaker with really good components and those specs for $60. I'm sure that while the speaker is certainly capable of the performance indicated by those specs, they have reached their price point by having low quality components. Maybe they used regular particle board instead of high-density particle board for the speaker cabinent. Maybe they used laminate to cover the cab instead of carpeting. Maybe all of their wiring is less expensive. Certainly, their drivers, passive crossovers, woofers and tweeters are of inferior quality to the Yamaha. And due to thier lower quality components, what is going to happen when a 900 watt power spike comes surging through the driver? It is going to FRY!! What is going to happen when you accidentally bump teh speaker into the door frame while carrying it around? It is going to break through the cheap wood. These are the kind of quality concerns that Yamaha has addressed and Acoustic Audio has not. Make sense?

So, just because it is CAPABLE of better performance doesn't mean it is a better product over the life of the unit!!

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C Mc
KJ, FL

There’s a perfect example of dishonest advertising and spec’ing.  There is no other rationale.  It makes me sick.  

It’s beyond lack of quality parts; there’s simply no way that any $60 speaker can do that, pure and simple.  I’d  bet anything anyone wants to bet that the woofer size and the impedance is the only accurate thing on that spec list.  

As  TopherM stated before, “The main moral is if you buy cheap, you are going to get cheap…”

I’ve still have a couple old “Optimus” speakers sold at Radio Shack years ago, and they were $69.99 new, and for home use, they sound fine, but they never made rediculous claims like that.  

They’re 100 watt program, 200 watts peak, cheap pezo tweeter, and they would work fine for a home music room.  

But if a company talks crap like the above, I wouldn’t trust the company enough to buy anything from them, and I wouldn’t even know what kind of power to put to them.  500 watts would probably smoke them in then minutes.  

Stick to some reputable dealer, Guitar Center, Musician’s Friend are popular, and stick to the name brands.

Nothing they sell new on eBay would I consider at all.  Specs are worth nothing if not from a reputable company.  

Okay... rant off    :)

+1  

what's a Piezo tweeter? is that like a technology or a brand name?

Piezo tweeter - common in cheaper PA speakers, home & car stereo systems.
A piezo (or piezo-electric) tweeter contains a piezoelectric crystal coupled to a mechanical diaphragm. An audio signal is applied to the crystal, which responds by flexing in proportion to the voltage applied across the crystal's surfaces, thus converting electrical energy into mechanical (and hence acoustic) energy. While piezoelectric tweeters are relatively cheap, and rugged when compared to typical voice coil tweeters, most are not capable of the same level of linearity and accuracy of reproduction compared to high quality conventional tweeter designs. Piezoelectric tweeters are most commonly found in inexpensive stereo and public address speakers, where cost and reliability are more important than accuracy. In some high-end stereo speakers -- most notably the Dahlquist DQ-10 -- piezoelectric tweeters have been used as supertweeters, to reproduce frequencies beyond the limit of most dynamic speakers, although this is not a common practice.

Horn tweeter - These are most common in music PA systems.
A horn tweeter is any of the above tweeters coupled to a flared or horn structure. Horns are used for two purposes: to control dispersion, or to more tightly couple the tweeter diaphragm to the air for higher efficiency, or both. The tweeter in either case is usually called a compression driver and is quite different than more common types of tweeters. Properly used, a horn improves the off-axis response of the tweeter by controlling (ie, reducing directivity) of the tweeter. It can also improve the efficiency of the tweeter by coupling the relatively high acoustic impedance of the driver to the lower impedance of the air. The larger the horn, the lower the frequencies at which the tweeter can work as the horn will provide coupling to the air at lower frequencies. There are different types of horns, including radial and Constant Directivity (CD). Horn tweeters are often said to have a somewhat 'different' sound than non horn loaded tweeters; some regard this as better, others as worse. Horn designers note that poorly designed horns, or improperly crossed over horns, have predictable problems in the accuracy of their output.

Dome tweeter - most commonly found in home/car stereo speaker systems.
A dome tweeter is constructed by attaching a voice coil to a dome (made of coated cloth, thin metal or other suitable material) which is attached to the magnet or the top-plate via a low compliance suspension. These tweeters typically do not have a frame or basket, but a simple front plate attached to the magnet assembly. Typical sizes are 1 inch or perhaps 1.5 inches. There are even dome tweeters with 3/4 inch voice coils.

Cone tweeter - found in cheaper home/car stereo speaker systems.
Cone tweeters have the same basic design and form as a woofer with optimizations to operate at higher frequencies. The optimizations usually are:

a very light cone so it can move rapidly
cone materials chosen for stiffness (eg, ceramic cones in one manufacturer's line), or good damping properties (eg, silk or coated fabric) or both.
the suspension (or spider) is less compliant than for other drivers because it's not needed for high frequency reproduction.
small voice coils (3/4 inch is typical) and light (thin wire) which also helps the tweeter cone move rapidly.
Cone tweeters are relatively cheap, but do not have the dispersion characteristics of domes. Thus they are routinely seen in low cost applications such as factory car speakers, shelf stereo systems, and boom boxes.

A variation is the ring radiator in which the 'suspension' of the cone or dome becomes the major radiating element. These tweeters have very different directivity characteristics than do standard dome or cone tweeters.

Reference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piezoelect ... zo_tweeter

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Thanks for all the info guys, I really appreciate you people taking your time and answer all these question.  But..... I have more questions still, bear with me.  

How important is speaker cable?  how much difference does it make if I replace the speaker cable and mic cable that came with the package to some name brand say Hosa? (i dont know any other brand....)    Do you choose mic/speaker cable based on the Brand reputation? (Hosa, Horizon, etc..) Or do you choose based on Material? (with non-brand, gold connector, heavy gauge) what's the rule of thumb here?

btw, should i be posting this question into a new topic since it's not related to my original topic anymore?

For a lesser quality system, it really won't make THAT big of a difference.  When you get into more power & longer runs, then it will make more of a difference.  Think of speaker cable in the terms of a water pipe, the bigger the pipe - the more water will flow, the bigger the cable - more current will flow.  Speaker cable is measured in guages - the higher the guage, (contrary to what you would think) the smaller the wire, the lower the guage, the bigger the wire.  For a long run you definitely want a bigger guage (lower number) cable.  You want a lower guage for the least resistance.  I tend to use 10-12 guage wire for my speakers depending on the length - typically you want the shortest length possible as well from you amp to the speaker, not using a 50 ft cable for a 10 ft run.  I've seen speaker cable (for pro use) go as high as 18 guage (SMALL wire).  The average is 16-14 guage for most systems - to me this is too small - at least anything smaller than a 14 guage.

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Perhaps according to Lonman it wont' make "that" big of a difference on a lower end system.  It also depends on what type of wires they give you in the original package.. I mean I got some NAIL thin wires with mine.... and it was just unacceptable... I really heard the difference when I plug in the monster speaker cables.  Maybe not amazingly different but i heard it.  To me it's like , i don't need or want to spend 1000+ on a system. but if I can get more out of my current system by dropping another 140 bucks or so.. I'm going to do it.  (70 for the speakers, 70 for mic)

If you have a guitarcenter around you (or similar stores) simply plug in your original cables... sing for a few hours, or just listen to the music alone etc... go to the store, pick up the "better" cables, plug those in... if you don't think the "difference" can justify you spending 70bucks on a pair of cables (on a 750 bucks sytem), simply return it

Just like my home system... it came with those black/red wires, it's not a high end system but it is a very "ugly" but solid product from Onkyo.  (i love it) after a month I got those humongous wires from monster, and a new woofer cable... Will I ever go back to the flimsy wires? the answer is simply no.  :)

Lot's of myths out there.  

Some interesting reading on the subject.  

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

btw i'm not an advocate of "monster" products.. they're just everywhere so i buy them .. instead of trying to find non brandnames wires of different guages.  

Interesting read.

Good article.....and I agree for the most part.

I think the most important thing to consider in any connecting wire is how well-made the actual connectors are, as they are ALWAYS the problem when a wire goes bad. There are many of us here that SWEAR by Monster Cable wiring, not because it sounds any better, but because the connectors are just very well made AND if they break, your local Sam Ash/Guitar Center, etc., will swap them out for a new one NO QUESTIONS ASKED. If you live in teh boonies, you just send them back to Monster and they send you a new one within about 2-3 weeks. I went through dozens of cheap cables before I figured out that due pretty much entirely to their 100% replacement policy, they are a BIG money-saving asset.

Also, as Lonman said and was said in the article, wire gauge DOES matter when you are talking about long runs of 50+ feet, though I know most of us do not deal with that situation.

Finally, if you are going to be using your audio equipment in a place with significant interference/background radiation (neon lights are a notorious source of this), then it is smart to invest in balanced wiring instead of the cheaper non-balanced, as the extra sheilding will block out the interference source instead of actually carrying it and amplifying it!! Just remember, that if you go balanced then ALL cables in your signal chain must be balanced. One foot of unbalanced cable anywhere in the chain will pick up the interference and send it through the rest of the chain to the speakers.

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C Mc
KJ, FL

I hope my posting that article wasn’t interpreted as my trying to contradict anyone.  (And I didn't notice until later that they even mentioned monster cable.)   

I just had that saved and thought it would make good reading.  

Yep, bad ends are what’ll mess you up with cheap cables.  I got a cable brand new that didn’t work, I had to re-solder it, because I got it on-line and didn’t want to go through the hassle of sending it back.  

Since then I decided to always buy cabling locally so I could just return it.

Ok, if you have dental floss ('nail') sized wire, yes you would probably hear an improvement going to a larger sized wire.
I remember my aunt had a  home stereo & couldn't understand why it kept going into an overload protection (shutting down) at higher volumes - I looked & she had the smallest wire i'd ever seen, we replaced it with a heavier guage & she never had that problem again.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I am actually suprised by this comment, most of the article i encounter has been complaining about Monster being over-price, and just normal quality, they always believe you can just find any other cable with the same spec.  But then besides Monster, how to you pick and choose so many brands out there?  Let's say if I am buying a 20 feet speaker cable that's 14 gauge(Thanks to Lonman, now i know lower is thicker and better), how much do you have to spend to consider it's a Good cable, or what do i look for besides price?  




What is a "Balanced wiring" and how do i know it's a "Balance" not "unbalance"?