Karaoke Forums

Hi, all
I was originally planning on buying just a pair of MTX speaker and connect with my home theater amp and run with a passive mixer.  After much consideration, now the budget jumps from $400 to $800(I think it's better to leave my home amp alone).  I am now left with a decision to buy a midsize PA system, but I can't decide which one.  (it's for home karaoke used and hook up with laptop, I post the question few days ago, thanks for the quick reply btw)

1.   $750.00

   *Yamaha EMX212S 8-channel, 2x200W mixer;
   *2 Yamaha BR12 12" 2-way speakers;
   *2 - 20' speaker cables;  
   *2 StarPower 9 mics;
   *2 - 20' mic cables; and
   *2 speaker stands.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/ ... sku=630196

2.  $750.00

   * Behringer PMH2000 Pro 2x250 Watt Pwr Mixer x
   * 2 x Behringer B215 15 Inch 2 Way PA Speakers
   * 2 x Music People SS7761B Tripod Speaker Stands
   * 2 x Audio Technica ST90MKII Dynamic Microphones with Clips
   * 2 x Whirlwind MC20 20 Foot Microphone Cables
   * Stagg 30 Foot 1/4 Inch to Speakon Speaker Cables

http://www.americanmusical.com/item--i- ... -1CUG.html

3.  $670.00

   * Behringer PMH2000 Pro 2x250 Watt Pwr Mixer x
   * 2 x Behringer B212 12 Inch 2 Way PA Speakers
   * 2 x Music People SS7761B Tripod Speaker Stands
   * 2 x Audio Technica ST90MKII Dynamic Microphones with Clips
   * 2 x Whirlwind MC20 20 Foot Microphone Cables
   * Stagg 30 Foot 1/4 Inch to Speakon Speaker Cables
http://www.americanmusical.com/item--i-AMS-PAPK-1C.html

The first two are pretty much the same, which make my decision very very difficult.  However the 3rd one price slightly less, but the speakers are smaller, not sure if the amp drive it better.  Of course there are pricer models out there, pretty much the same package but with more powerful amp, and slightly bigger speaker, but i figure for home use, 12 inch speaker should be good enough.   But it is so hard to choose one, what do you guys think?

2nd, since i saw the forum, philli1025 is fighting the humming noise, anybody care to explain how that occurs? Since I have pretty much the same setting like him, should i just buy a EBtech just in case it happens to me as well?  

last question, expensive mic like ElectroVoice ND967, or Audix OM5, do these really make you sound like heaven???

Thanks ahead.

I would go with option 1 (Yamaha combo).  Better brand/reliability factor.

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I know some will disparage the brand, but I am very happy with my Behringer. I just did my first live-sound gig last night using a Behringer PMH3000 and B1520s, and it went great.

If you are going to be moving the speakers a lot, and it is for home use, you might think about the smaller ones. They will be a lot easier to move -- my B1520s are 63lbs each and are hell to get on the stands.

I don't think you can go too far wrong with any of the three setups you mentioned.

I agree with Lonman that for the extra $80, you are going to be getting a more reliable product with the Yamaha system. Like mcky said, the Behinger equipment will sound very good and has about a 90-95% chance of giving you absolutely no problems, but it is pretty well documented throughout the live music industry that Behingers do skimp on the quality of some parts to reach their price point, and have a 5+% fail rate on many of their systems as a result, which is pretty high compared to Yamaha and other industry standards like Peavey, Mackie, B52, JBL, EV, etc. that very rarely produce lemons.

For home use, where you hopefully won't be driving the systems TOO hard, I don't think you can really go wrong with either one, but for my money, it would be worth the extra $80 for that extra track record of reliability.

Think of it as spending the extra money to buy a Sony or Toshiba TV instead of a APEX or Westinghouse. That is about the comparable difference we are talking about here.

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C Mc
KJ, FL

Just a question/suggestion though.  If you are spending about 750 bucks on a PA system... are you sure you want to be using the mics given to you in the package?  

Chances are you're going to dish out more $ for better mics... just my obersvation.  But if money is not an issue I see these packages being worth the money.

Another question (yes I like to ask questions.. hopefully i'll be less ignorant on sound and power one of these days)

So i'm reading the specs for the Yamaha package... if the amp produces 130W @ 8ohms per channel, and the speakers are 125noise /250 program @ 8ohms... or 150/300 for the BR12s... they have diff specs on diff pages....

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/document ... sku=630196

So there's a good chance the speakers should not be push that hard?  It's just weird how companies pair the mixer with the speakers compare to what i read on HERE as to what should be the optimum setup.

If the speaker is rated to handle 125 watts “noise” (RMS) and 250 “program”, then being powered between 125 and 250 watts is within an accepted rule-of-thumb.

I read these things before I bought Behringer, but the other thing I consistently read is that their customer support is outstanding, and that any failures were promptly addressed. I decided for my home/light-duty use the bang for the buck was what I was looking for. If I was going to do it pro, I probably would have bought the Yamaha mixer and speakers at 30% more bucks for the same features.

I have now bought 6 Behringer items (compressor, mixer, speakers, amp, SD condenser mics) and not had a problem.  But then again, I am  really just a home user, even though I just did a live-sound gig with the equipment (vocals/piano/bass at a reception for 150 people).

The mics are where I didn't skimp. I bought Shure and Sennheiser.

Ahhh opps I always thought it was 50 percent more than program power.. thanks

Manufacturers typically suggest you match the amp to the speaker’s “program” rating, which is actually why that rating was invented.  It used to be some calculation (or miscalculation) of RMS/Continuous, so they just simplified it.  

Powering them higher than the program rating could be risky territory.  

I can’t stress enough the value of the speaker’s “sensitivity” rating.  This tells you how efficiently your speaker uses the power you're feeding it, and that’s where you’ll get your volume.  

Consider that an increase in volume of three decibels is what the human ear translates as a “perceivable” or “appreciable” difference.  It takes TWICE the amp power to get those three decibels.  

So a speaker with a sensitivity rating of 97dB will take HALF as many watts to be as loud as one 94dB.  

The ear perceives an increase of ten decibels as “double” the volume, which would take TEN TIMES the watts.  

So, you can discern from those figures that amp power or the speaker’s power-handling capability are not nearly as critical as efficiency (sensitivity rating) of the speaker.

[quote="mckyj57 @ Tue Apr 17, 2007 8:29 am"
...If you are going to be moving the speakers a lot, and it is for home use, you might think about the smaller ones. They will be a lot easier to move -- my B1520s are 63lbs each and are hell to get on the stands.
========

Are you certain they’re that heavy?  I own the wedge version of those speakers, and if I recall correctly, it’s like, 53lbs.  

Anyways, it’s a good-sounding speaker, IMO.  

There are a lot of Behringer haters out there, mostly because of their supposed business practices, so they’re typically bashed my many, then many more jump on the bandwagon.  

They’re often compared to Nady or Kustom, but they’re really not in the same league.  

But, legitimate or not, it’s a rep one has to live with for now.  

Their products have been improving, too, like their new “pro” series speakers are supposedly a really nice unit and bang-for-the-buck.  

I’ve also read great reviews of their customer service lately.

I have an EP2500 amp, and I swear by that value.  I pounded that thing for 10hrs most weekends for two years without a hiccup.  ]

you've lost me i'll be re reading that as soon as I'm done taking my CPA exam this coming sat.

The manual says 59.5 pounds -- it was the shipping weight that was 63. The manual says 52.5 for the B1220, so that isn't that much better.

I *am* getting old, but hoisting those puppies up on a speaker stand is probably more than I *ever* would have wanted to try.



I am new to this stuff, so I didn't go through the earlier history. All I saw was that a lot of people said they had some serious sound and functionality for the price, and that was what I was looking for. I got a system that allows me to do a pro-sounding gig for under a thousand dollars. Though of course I have spent more by now -- I seriously have the bug and find myself wanting to buy something just because I might need it if I  ever decide to do this stuff professionally...I would have to have holes in my head to do that, but you never know.

package 1 and 2 are not similar. With the #2 you are getting 15" speaker vs 12" in package #1.  You are also gettin 50 more watts of power.

Yeah buying a name brand product may be better, but Behringer is becoming a name brand.  I have the PMH2000 and B1520's and have  been using them for 3 years with out one single problem (at minium 2 gigs a week).  I was so impressed with the quality and sound, my 2nd bigger system is all Behringer products.

The only thing I see wrong with package 2 is the speaker cables.  They are 1/4" to speak-on.  When you get the cables, get 2 more speak-on ends, and cut off the 1/4" plugs and install the speak-on connectors.  They are a much better connetor, heck, even Yamahha uses em (LOL)

They actually have a slightly more powerful package.

$900.00
Yamaha EMX312SC 8-channel, 2x300W powered mixer with digital effects;
2 Yamaha BR15 15" 2-way speakers;
2 - 20' Horizon speaker cables;
4 AKG D 8000 S dynamic microphones;
4 - 20' Lo-Z mic cables.;
2 Musician's Friend speaker stands.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/ ... sku=630200

but then, I don't think i need 4 mic, and i somehow don't want to have that big of a speaker, and......it's $150 dollars more, i figure if the 130w amp is able to handle BR12, then i can go ahead buy this package and save this $150 to buy a better mic, I actually bought Audix OM5 on ebay ($80, used) already even though I haven't bought the PA system yet.  (exactly like what philli125 wonder about).   I can only hope this is not a stupid idea.  What do you guys think?  There is also a EV ND967 Bstock on ebay for $130, i even consider buying this one as well......

And should i spend a bit more money to replace both the speak cable and mic cable?
Is it worth it to change the cables?

I just bought the B-52 Matrix 200 as a secondary system for wedding ceremonies and small rooms.   $500 from Guitar Center - saw it at musiciansfriend.com which bundled stands and mic online (same co., but taxes at GC were less than shipping from MF).   Nice portable system - for home use, real nice.  

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/ ... sku=635170

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Sounds Great! Entertainment
Bartlett, Illinois

I never spotted that before.  That looks like a nice little system with plenty of features.  

According to the site, it has some DSP effects, which would likely be enough for vocals.  

Even a subwoofer output, so a little powered sub would make that a neat little system.

same system retails here over $2000 yet our dollar is nearing the 80c US mark, someone is creaming it. cos the figures do not add up

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"Be who you are and say what you feel... Because those that matter... Don't mind...And those that mind... Don't matter."

Here’s an example of specifications for a speaker.

Frequency range (-10dB): 38Hz - 16kHz
Frequency response (±3dB): 50Hz - 12.5kHz
Sensitivity (1w/1m): 98dB SPL
Nominal impedance: 8ohms
Power capacity: 250W continuous, 1000W peak
Maximum SPL: 120dB
Nominal dispersion: 90 degree x 50 degree
Crossover frequency: 1.6kHz


Notice the third line “Sensitivity” which states that this speaker (measured with one watt of power at one meter away), produces 98dB SPL (Sound Pressure Level).  

When I've been saying "efficiency", I'm referring to the "Sensitivity" of the speaker. I've edited my previous post on the subject to clarify) 

Pay close attention to this line when comparing speakers.  For us small-timers looking to get the most volume from our little amps, this is of great importance.  A difference of three dB is significant enough to take seriously when comparing speakers.  

If a (typically cheap) speaker doesn’t include it’s sensitiviey rating, it’s likely very poor, and you won’t get near the volume from it from your amp.  


Frequency response - shows that this speaker will produce frequencies as low as 50Hz, which isn’t bad for a 15” speaker, and (+/- 3dB) means that there’s little difference in volume between those low and high frequencies.   (+/- 10dB), for instanced, is much more of a difference, which is not so good; pay close attention to this when buying subs to see how much less volume it will have at the lower frequency it says it will produce.

Power capacity shows how much power the speaker can handle.  This one doesn’t show the “Program” power, but one would assume it to be 500 watts - (double the “Continuous/RMS” and half the “Peak”).  

Maximum SPL is how loud this speaker can go.

These are all important to compare when shopping, but many neglect to note the “sensitivity” rating.  

I hope this helps.  And good luck on your CPA exam.    :)

Unhinged, even though you are on the right track, you are throwing a little bit of misinformation out there, so just a few clarifications:



Watts are not in a direct relationship with volume. You could technically have a 5,000 watt speaker with a 90dB spl, and it would be a kickass speaker that sounded PHENOMINAL, but just was not designed to handle blasting volumes. Wattage does NOT equal volume, or else everyone would buy Peavey products (which are known for their high wattage handling at a low price point, but don't particularly have super high SPLs)!! Likewise, a speaker's volume capability certainly has no bearing on how good it sounds. SPL is a much more useful spec. when shopping for subwoofers than it is for mains or monitors. Of course, you don't want a pair of main speakers with a 89 spl, but then again, most of us are not going to be able to afford a main speaker with an spl of 106. Realistically, 99% of the main speakers any of us have ever used have an SPL around 96-98, and though a pro KJ would certainly want to lean towards one on the higher end, it isn't like a good speaker with a 94 spl won't have enough volume to fill a medium sized venue, and none of us with any sense have ever attempted to use the full volume capabilities of our speakers anyway. I know that I personally run my speakers at my bar at about 30% of their POSSIBLE volume BUT I take up a good portion of my amp's wattage to those same speakers by boosting frequencies here and there. So just because my speakers are making use of the majority of the 500 program watts they are designed for doesn't mean I am running near their volume threshhold!!



The (+/- 3 dB) indicates that all frequencies that the speaker produces within its range will be within 3dB on either side (either 3dB lower or 3 dB higher) than the reference (average) output. You are correct, however, that you want this number to be as low as possible, as it shows how "tight" the output signal will sound ("tight" being the opposite of "muddy"), basically all frequencies outputted from that speaker are going to be PERFECTLY alligned is that number is (+/- 0), which doesn't exist in a speaker, BTW. Again, 99% of speakers any of us will ever use are going to be (+/- 3dB) anyway.

Anyway, PHIL:

The main moral is that if you buy cheap, you are going to get cheap, and anyone with common sense should know that whether they can read speaker specs or not. You are not going to find a speaker with good specs for $100-200 just like you are not going to find a speaker with crappy specs for $500+. And when it comes down to the real life application of speakers, MOST of us use the speakers in the $300-500 range (each) that all have extremely similar specs and are designed to efficiently fill up the average sized bar with clean, efficient sound.

And along that same line, if you are going to be using the system at home in a room smaller than your average bar, then you can get away with using more inexpensive speakers. However, if you have not heard of the brand, you have not heard of the brand for a reason. Brand names don't just earn a reputation through advertising, it takes a track record of success and quality as well.

SOOOOO....when it comes down to it, buy a brand you are familiar with and if you want to compromise and save on price, realize that you are going to have to compromise and skimp on features, such as bass responce or vocal reproduction quality!!

When it all comes down to it, it isn't as technical and complicated as everyone is making it out to be!!

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C Mc
KJ, FL

Thanks i'm sure all these tips will come in handy when I decide to upgrade in the future...