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Its not a replacement for good bass but this sure helps with the old tunes that are hurting for bass I can actually pull vocals out of the mud sometimes too.aphex

If you watch ebay sometimes you can pick one up for $100... In my dfx-12  at the top of 9/10 11/12 I normalled out at the eq and back It is routed thru a 362 and the 204.. I run the faders at -6 to -3 db so im never hitting the external procs with line level In fact I run the lefyt channel into 9/10 and the right channel in to 11/12.. The fx send is down on 9/10 and at unity on 11/12...After practice you can adjust the FX with 2 fingers on the faders. (If you turn one up you have turn the other down) The FX channel fader of course is lower than the other(usually -10 db) ..End result .... One awesome system...

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With all due respect, you would be well-served by better speakers.  

Subs would help a but, but you’d still sound better with just better mains.  

The sound enhancer would be just another band aid for you instead of just fixing the problem.

The absolute least-expensive speaker I would get would be the Peavey PR12 ($169.99), but with the the PR15 at $199.99 you’d likely never feel the need for subs.  You’ll also get spoiled real fast with the light-weight.  

The new Behringer pro line at around $250 is also a well-built good-sounding speaker.

The speakers above are fairly efficient, and with your amp, I’m sure you’d be very happy with the results, and money-ahead.  

JMHO

            No reason not to debate, my friend. It's another way to exchange info.  As for the " ONLY karaoke"  attitude- not in MY world. I love and am a Karaoke Host first and foremost. It's my passion. I only DJ for money, not enjoyment.


          Now, to debate further..

  1)   That 90% figure may apply to live venues with professional musicians, but, in my experience, not karaoke venues.  Very few that I run into use subs  ( my own experience remember).  

  2)    If the vocals sound thin without the subs to fill them out, it is a result of improper mixing or equipment lacking the full range of instrumentation required for karaoke, including speakers. I usually run into this when a DJ decides to try doing   "a little karaoke as a sideline", running it through a DJ mixer into 2-way speakers.   This also about the only time I run into subs at karaoke.  Proper mixing, equipment, and 3 way speakers  do the trick.

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I don’t think he was suggesting that the vocals needed the subs, but the music, which would enhance the singer‘s experience.  

But… I still don’t use subs for strictly karaoke.  When I’m Djing, the music includes more hard rock and hip-hop, which have a lot of those lower frequencies,

but it just happens that, for some reason, karaoke singers seldom sing that; it’s more classic rock, oldies, soul, country, etc. and the music on the discs, more-often-than-not, simply don’t have those super-low frequencies to reproduce.

Now, if you DON’T have decent 15” speakers, then a sub would definitely help,

but if you have decent speakers, then the benefit of the subs for (I’m guessing) 95% of the songs would be negligible.  

That would just me my experience, (your mileage may vary).

I see plenty of places that don't run one & IMO the music doesn't sound full (without the aid of major eq'ing).  Also as a rule, many karaoke companies have the "Why buy good equipment" or " Why should I use that kind of equipment - it's only karaoke" mentality.  Not saying that's your stance, but I have seen that in person & even on this & other boards/forums.  Which is probably the reason why you see very few.  



I didn't state the vocals sounded thin, I stated the music sounded thin & yes this is due to inexperience or improper equipment.  Went to a show last night, the place was a fairly large place, 2 15" 2 way speakers on stands & a crappy little mixer amp that pushed aprox 100 watts per speaker.  There was NO bass & I saw his settings - the bass was turned up.  Distortion.  The addition of a powered sub (even 1) in there would have been a tremendous help, allowing more bass in the music & cleaning up the tops.
Most dj's that do karaoke as a sideline are also generally using the 'smile' setting on their eq - which automatically boosts the bass & treble up & cuts down the mids - which is where the primary vocal frequencies lay.  So yes I can see where you may think a sub is detrimental, but with a sub that is properly crossed over, powered & eq'd, I think you'd hear a different tune!

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We get a ton of classic rock & country, and yes a sub can help with these songs as well.  Again, how do you guys eq for when you are dj'ing & doing karaoke?  Chartbuster country discs have sometimes just as much low end kick than some commercially recorded  music.  Much os SOund Choice recordings are the same way.

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I definitely see your points.  

Yep, if a Dj has got his “smiley face” thing goin’ on, the vocals will get lost in the “boom boom” , and likely even get some low-end feedback, as well.  

Subs, proper EQ will definitely result in optimum performance.  Smaller venues, I seem to get away without subs, having decent 15” mains.  

I do appreciate your frustration with the mentality of “It’s just karaoke”, because no part of the sound should be compromised.  

I just remember bringing subs and actually having to EQ them out or bypass them, because they were too much, and without them, it sounded better.

I guess it depends on the speakers being used, and maybe size of the room sometimes, as well.

The thing about DJing, one actually exaggerates the bottom end, not necessarily trying to reproduce the sound accurately.  It’s about “felling” that low-end.  

Karaoke, the sound needs to be more accurate, and maybe even MORE emphasis on the vocals than what might be truly accurate, for which the subs become less important.  

Seems to me, at least in my experience and with my systems, by the time I EQ down that part that is too low, the subs become futile.  Good 15” mains usually will cover the range nicely.  

This is just my experience, and of course, ymmv.  

 
Agreed lonman but in small venues even up to 200 seating cap. Sound procs will suffice.. (with good speakers and well adjusted sound system) One of my pet peeves are  posters who call a sound proc a bandaid Ive argued with pro studio sound recorders on other forums.

The aphex 104 and 204 has been installed in  over  a million pro sound systems In many stadiums or radio stations it is the last unit before the mains in a stadium or the limiter in many radio or tv stations. broadcast
and you can bet your booty it is in this system  We might get another old gig back this summer $375 Most of the big clubs we ever did we hooked into the inhouse system And yes we didnt need to eq or drive the inhouse bass with extra power due to the fact that we have fully processed audio and just use it for a linear pa system...

Each venue is different we have planted a few hundred jukeboxes in all kinds of bars and each require tweaks It is not a set process and there are no simple rules It takes common sense and depends upon the requirements and profit issues That is why I dont like doing little dives anymore. Or catering to drunks.. Ill stay retired  :)

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I may have said the words “band aid” in a previous post, but it was because of what the poster was working with.  

It is a band aid if someone’s trying to make an inadequate system sound good.  

I agree that, as you described them (“with good speakers and a well adjusted sound system"), they can have a purpose.  

Also in the wrong hands, it could do more harm than good.

Well said.. No probs ...

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Hey, I will be the first to admit my system lacks the punch and professiol quality of many of the ones on here. I call it my little Frankenstein rig....

I also only have 1 show a week and with my day job nort really looking for more than maybe 1 more night.

Now in that context, wouldn't the 'band-aid' still help?

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I hope you didn’t take offense, and if you’re doing okay so far, maybe you don’t need anything more.  

If you want to try an enhancer, maybe look for a used Behringer unit, or BBE Sonic Maximizer, if you can’t find the one the poster mentioned, and for probably $50/75, give it a shot.  

I’m not much of an expert on those enhancers; some argue that they add stress to the woofer, in which case it might do actual damage, but some insist that they don’t.  I simply don’t know.

I still would still suggest (if you really feel you need them) a couple different speakers.  Just keep your eye out for used name-brand speakers, Peavey, Yamaha, even Behringer has decent ones, you’d be so much farther ahead.  

Stay away from Kustom, Nady and the typical ebay stuff, or you’ll not be improving any.  

Just don’t get anything with a “pezo” tweeter.  Get something with a regular compression driver.  I’d bet you could find a pair used for around $250 before long.

I know after using them for nearly 4 years, they will need to be replaced in the not too distant future. I appreciate the advice, but it still did not answer my question on wether or not the sub will enhance enough to make a diference.

BTW- I tried a BBE sonic Maximizer and saw no 'appreciable' effect.....

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The Sonic Maximizer is really not designed to be used for tonal control live, it is a frequency aligner.  It takes the highs/mids/lows and adds ever so subtle delay between them to get the sine waves to produce equally.  You shouldn't notice much of a difference when it is engaged.  Although it does have presence & lo controls, for live use, you don't want to overuse them.
In the studio, it can be used to add punch or clarity to vocals, kick drum, bass, keys.  Brighten up old recordings.

The Aphex 204 might be a better 'band aid', but if your speakers can't handle the additional low frequency load, you could end up blowing them.

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Alright, I seen this mention numerous times in this thread. Please define what you feel is Good 15" Mains. As far as a sub I have played a number of rooms with varying degrees of acustics. I've played rooms the were identical in size but one needed a sub and the other did not.

By “Good”, I’m just suggesting something decent, like something that costs about $199.99 new.  They’ll also be more efficient, which means that you’ll get a LOT more SPL (volume) from them with the same power.  

Anything with “pezo” tweeters is not good, and they’ll be cheaper than this.  I don’t know of a 15” speaker I like under that price.

What’s the point in caring so much about the quality of the discs, mics, processing, etc, to have it all come out through speakers that compromise all that you’ve invested in.  The speakers are THE MOST important part of your sound, so that’s NOT the place to skimp.  

My personal recommendations as per my own experience, passive speakers (non-powered) under $350 each:

I love the Peavey PR15s (199.99), and although not exactly “pro” speakers, they’ll do a fantastic job for the average venue.  I use these for most mobile situations as they’re VERY LIGHT, which might not seem like such a biggie, but you’ll appreciate that if you’re mobile.  They have plenty of low-end thump, and I really can’t imagine a better deal for 100 or less people.  The polypropylene cabinets are also not going to break, come apart or suffer the ill-effects of moisture like the cheaper wood used in the cabs in that price range.  

I have the PR Subs to use with these when I feel I need them, like a larger room with more rock or hip-hop.  

My better speakers are the Yamaha “Club” speakers ($349.99), much heavier, and really more than I’ve ever needed for karaoke-size gigs, but they work well for out-door live (bands) events.  

I have some Peavey 18” subs for use with these.  

Between those, there are the Behringer “B1520 pro” series which I’ve heard very-good things about, especially for the price.  

Yamaha “BR” series aren’t too bad, but I’d prefer the Peavey PRs to those.  

JBL JRX series are around $300, and aren’t bad.  I’d dare say I’d prefer the Behringers before those and save $50 each.  

Peavey has some “PV115”s, $219.99, but I prefer the “PR”s to them.

I’d chose any of the above over than any Nady, Gem Sound, Phonic, Alesis, and eBay stuff, and have a better resale value.  

Anything over $350 is likely to be good.  

These are just my personal semi-educated preferences.  I hope it helps.

Whatever you get, the power rating of the amp needs to match the program power rating of the speaker, otherwise a good speaker is moot point.  100 watt amp running speakers that require 500 watts is going to sound like garbage as well.  This is a key failure on many kj systems I have observed when I go out, grossly underpowering their speakers - which is partly the reason for the thin sound, distortion, tinny.

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Yes subs would help.  I’m familiar with those mains you have and there’s just no bottom end.  

Problem is, if you add a sub or subs of acceptable quality, then more amp, crossover if needed… you’re talking a substantial investment and more stuff to carry,

and even with the new thump, your tops will still sound bad.  

Then you say you’ll still need new main speakers in the near future, which is another few-hundred $$, after which you may even regret having bought the subs.  

You mentioned that you don’t want to invest much, so I’ll talk minimums here.  

If you want decent passive subs, I’d recommend minimally the Peavey PR 15” Sub, or better yet, the Peavey PV118.  Both have internal crossovers.

As for powered subs, the cheapest I see is some Nady 15” for $349.99, and personally I wouldn’t touch it.  Next up you’re pushing $800.  


In my humble opinon, here’s the most efficient way I can think of doing it.  

First I’d get two new main speakers and see how they sound with your amp.  I’d bet money you’d find the difference to be AMAZING.  

Then if you still want to add subs later, get one or two passive subs with internal crossovers and an amp powerful enough to run them all, you’re good to go.

Yes, it is ideal to match the amps RMS/Continuous rating to the speakers “Program” rating.  Really, anywhere between the speakers RMS/Continuous (half of program), and Program rating is a good/safe rule of thumb.

Not to contradict, but as per my understanding, if you have enough volume, it hurts nothing to “under-power” a speaker.  This is a common myth.

It’s no different than turning the volume down if it’s too loud.  If the volume is sufficient, there’s no need for more power.  

The problem people have is that, when they don’t have enough volume, they push something in the chain (mixer/amp/whatever) to clipping (red lights), resulting in a distorted signal which can easily double the strain on the speaker.  

If the volume is sufficient and nothing is clipping, 50 watts in a 1000 watt speaker has no ill effects.  

This is where speaker “efficiency” plays a major role.  Don’t concern yourself with power handling as much as “efficiency” of the speaker.  

A speaker rated 96dB (one-watt-one-meter) takes MUCH less power to get to the same volume as one 93dB.  

Also, with that in mind, it’s almost for sure that those cheapo speaker companies use some very-creative (downright dishonest) means of measuring the efficiency of their speakers, which is another reason to stick with a name-brand like Yamaha or Peavey, or even Behringer.    

I cannot stress enough the importance of the speakers.  As I’ve stated before, all that investment in high-quality discs/mics/etc, means little/nothing if it’s all coming out of a crummy speaker.