Karaoke Forums

In federal congress and  in local grassroots there are bare politics which exemplify the extreme of one side or another.  This is true whether considering a war, sexual predators on the internet, or any other important legislation. (never mind real issues)

There are prevalent attitudes or extreme opinions on this forum that while might embolster egos do nothing to solve the karaoke problem. Legal arguments  are futile in nature and do absolutely nothing but promote personal opinion But it reflects the extremes of one side or another..

As provedi in any fashion whether to solve a problem or find a solution, a viable middle experienced  grounded has to be arbitrated   which arrives at a viable solution.

We have a problem that the cd mauus  cannot support kj's This is another extreme reaction which wont determine their business or theirs..

NOW HERE IS THE MEAT OF THIS POST:

We need to be discussing ways of getting singers back to the bars.
We need to be discussing why people are staying at home...
We need to discussing ways to circumvent and support the DUI laws.
We need to be discussing bars problems and not developing threads about dumb bar owners

We need to apply standard business and public relations practicessese of successful busininess and how it applies to our situation and not listen to the extremes on this forum

These extreme posters on this forum will get the newbies so involved in their typical liberal BS do  it my way, or this is illegal,or you are an (@$%&#!) for even suggesting
that
We  need to be accepting singers opinions in posts instead telling of telling them how illlegal they are and quit involving our customers in crap..

Is there anybody here who wants to inject some positive suggestions and start discu ssing real issues about karaoke problems and not going from one extreme to the other and open up your mind?? Is it ME ME ME or karaoke?

Lets start talking real issues ....

_________________
Join The Karaokle Singers Social Network. Upload Your Music!!

In one of my past posts I had noted, much to my surprise, that after considering contradictory opinions about how to run a karoake show, I came to the conclusion that three completely different answers could each be right.

BigDog, on the other hand, could only see things one way.  As a result he's banned from this forum and from another forum, as well. Unfortunately there are others here who can only see things one way.  

Karyoker, while your effort is well intentioned, please recall that you have already tried to achieve some of these very same goals in a previous thread. And I would like to share with you my experience with that thread.  Please indulge me; it might shed some light on what actually occurs on this forum, generally speaking, which might explain why no efforts have been made to improve/promote karaoke and to keep members actively participating in this forum.

Karryoker's thread; started on February 27th. (I have left out some of the original post and added the bold type for emphasis.)


I posted the following thoughts to that thread to establish my agreement with you:
In my first point 1) I agreed with both yours and Hamsamich's opinion that nobody really knows what's legal and illegal regarding copyright law.  I also added my belief that we're probably lacking more knowledge regarding copyright law than the knowledge we actually have in the matter!
In point (2) of my post I offered my opinion that we have no right to give anyone legal advice!!!  I also offered a suggestion for some terminology to use when responding to a Newbie’s inappropriate question (i.e. one that deals with potential copyright infringement).    When introducing that proposal I suggested that "we simply say", instead of HAMMERING (my terminology) the Newbie that: "we on this forum believe such activities are illegal...." I had hoped that your post (Karyoker), Hamsamich's post, my post and similars ones to ours would help produce a consensus opinion that individuals should stop, as you had suggested, taking it upon themselves to "hammer" (again my terminology) Newbies AND to see if we could agree on an appropriate response to an inappropriate question - one that would be impersonal and nonoffensive when uttered to another human being.  Of course, nothing close to that happened.
My post follows:



HERE’S ONE RESPONSE TO MY SUGGESTIONS________________________

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:30 pm   MCKY57
Re: Start Promoting Karaoke Not Your Personal Views
ericlater @ Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:49 am wrote:While I'm with Karyoker, and  2) So, if you feel a Newbie is asking an inappropriate question, there is no reason why you can't simply say "we (this forum) believe such activities are illegal/unethical and, therefore, provide no input regarding the matter"!   PERIOD, THE END  Remember, for personal use any type of download etc is legal. Any advice given to anyone beyond that quote would be provided in utter ignorance (we are not IP lawyers).



___________________________________________________________________

I would now like to take this opportunity to apologize to everyone for allowing myself to be baited into responding to the preceding post which was baseless and completely off topic itself.  I found myself in an argument with someone TELLING ME THAT THEY UNDERSTOOD BETTER WHAT I HAD SAID THAN I.  The small thread within a thread that developed at that point took Karyoker's thread, ironically, even further a field. At least four of us, taking sides, on what I had said.  And I never regained the enthusiasm to participate in that thread again!

And, IMHO, even if the average person would have misinterpreted what I had posted in that thread, there's no rational justification for the confrontational and accusatory tone of the response it received, as exampled above.  And misreading does not excuse a thing,  The most productive approach is to ask questions.  Maybe I should have been asked: Do you really think that your idea is the most effective way to approach this matter?  

Now, what causes this type of distraction?  I believe it is the very matter Karyoker asked folks to avoid in that other thread and this one as well -  personal agendas!  And unless people change, those agendas will interfere with Karyoker's selfless goal in this thread from ever being achieved.  I believe Karyoker wants to help.  I believe he has accomplished in his life all that he wanted.  Now, he would like to give back and help others; he has no agenda.  He's not trying to prove something to anyone. IMHO he quite satisfied with who he is and 100% sincere.  He doesn't need anyone agreeing with him!

I have come to the conclusion that some on this forum are not really interested in learning; they'd rather espouse their own viewpoints.  Some, furthermore, don't want they believe to BE CONFUSED WITH THE FACTS.  They know what they BELIEVE and every fact is, therefore, twisted to fit that belief.  

If someone makes a guffaw in a post, there's always someone there to JUMP on that person.  GOTCHA!  Why do they do that?  Because they need to feel better about themselves.

There's also a subtle downside cpnsequence to all of this outright negativity and disrespect.  I'm sure there are people just like me who feel they have something beneficial to say, but have to labor needlessly over the words they choose, because someone might jump on them if the post isn't 100% clear.   Who has that much time and energy?  In other words, instead of working as a team some on this forum would rather become antagonists!

And, then of course, there are those who are afraid to say anything lest they get devoured!
 
And I offer to those who believe that they have uncovered THE tried and true methods (and answers) that work for the whole world ---- consider that those methods of yours might not actually work for others!  Perhaps they won't work simply because the other person is not at all like you? Or perhaps the environment that the other person deals with is not the same as yours and you haven't a clue what they are really experiencing!  

My daddy tried to teach me never to argue with a fool because the casual observer would be UNABLE to determine which of you is the fool.  I guess I still have more to learn than I thought.

And the next time you think owners are dumb, remember that they had the belief that they could benefit from the service you offer and they chose to hire you!  Or consider this - there isn't a problem that isn't easier to solve the further away you are from it and the less responsiblity you have for it!

Give Karyoker the respect he's due and that this thread is due and stop promoting yourselves!  You'll be the one to benefit from it, not him!

"I don't understand the law" is not a valid legal defence.  Discussion of the law promotes understanding.  It is good.  I like it.

"But that's stupid..." is a very useful phrase when followed by a brief explanation.  I have been known to be stupid and prefer to have it pointed out so that I don't remain stupid.

Bars do not need singers, they need drinkers.  Bars measure profits by drinks sold.  Karaoke exists to improve that business.

Prolixity and equivication are evidence of a poor writing style, not wisdom.

Guys, what's your point?

_________________
Okay, who took my pants?

I thought singers are drinkers everywhere?

Perhaps we should look at Karyoker's suggestion in a more general framework?

And what I gathered from his post is this:  Why can't the forum get together and discuss what can be done to attract customers back to KARAOKE VENUES to enjoy karaoke and spend money?
                    ---or -----

Perhaps there are different and new types of venues in which karaoke can be introduced successfully?

Couldn't help here.  People don't seem as interested in going to the bars to sing anymore.  Advertising only goes so far, drink/bar specials could help, terrific wait staffs do help (been to many a bar that the staff looks irratated just to even be there), but I don't think anything a specific kj does is going to make a big difference (unless they are very good with a following then people will follow them anywhere, but then you don't need to worry about getting people back in the bars).  It's the bars responsibility to get people to want to come in - it's our responsibility to keep them entertained enough to want to stay and maybe enough to come back.  Around here the karaoke is down so much I seriously doubt it will ever get back up to the popular form of entertainment.  Texas Hold'Em tourneys are doing alot to add to this fact, more & more of them are popping up.  Dj shows are now being advertised in places that used to have karaoke or are being dj/karaoke mix nights (very common now).  Live music is making a pretty big come back.  



Already stated, tougher DUI laws, non-smoking laws, higher gas prices, bars paying (or rather not paying) for crappy companies with no hosting skills & inferior/crap equipment/selections.



Have the bars offer to pay for cab rides home or provide shuttle services.  We have one bar here that if you are too drunk to drive, they have bought an actual LIMO - 22', that they will have you chauferred home for free along with a tow of your car to your house.  This place is PACKED NIGHTLY SRO - literally EVERY night!!!!  



The bars problems are just that - they need to know how to promote themselves.  KJ companies can do so much to promote the show, but if the bar isn't hospitable, too expensive, lousy service, no one will come (or come back) - same can be said for the kj, but I have seen bad kj's working in good bars (generally college aged screamer type singers).

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Prima donna singers generally do not drink if they are that good (or think they are), or they drink very light (nurse 1 a night) - or drink hot herbal teas or hot water/honey/lemon - you know gotta keep their 'instrument' in tune.  Not big spenders - which I know is an issue for you (not trying to slam here).  Bars need drinkers (as stated in above) to survive.  In order to lure drinkers, there needs to be a reason for them to come out - drink prices, good bar staff, nice atmosphere (you know, no (@$%&#!) roaches or rats on the floor), & finally the entertainment value which includes karaoke.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I have also noticed that a lot of the big spenders in karaoke bars around here are the "not so great" singers who are singing mainly for the fun and the laughs.

I'm thinking the lack of extra disposable income, the tougher DUI laws and the fact that more people are cutting back on drinking for better health are the chief reasons for a decline in nightlife activities in general.  So how we can get people more money and get them to take more chances on the road and gamble on their livers is beyond me!  LOL

Might not the owner of a venue where karaoke exists be receptive to ideas to promote karaoke in brought to his/her attention?

Just One Xample
The Coffee Shop where I was suppose to do my first gig had already agreed to my proposal that we do a raffle.  Everytime someone sang, they would get an entry into the raffle.  The winner would be drawn at th end of the night and would receive a $10 gift certificate which could be used during a FUTURE visit to that venue.  So, the winner would have to come back to get their "winnings" and would not likely be alone when he/she returned.  Also, the winner had to be present during the drawing which was to held during the last hour of the show, in order to be eligible to win!!!

Can't say how it worked cause it never got implemented.  I think it has potential
    encourage people to sing
    encourage singers to stay around
    encourage winning singer to come back and collect their winnings
    expectation that word of mouth would reach folks singing elsewhere to come in and try the new show and to take a crack at the raffle

EDIT/ADD ON
  Please consider when contemplating this problem there are at least three ways by which to measure increased participation:
     more karaoke shows
     more karaoke singers
     current number of singers frequenting and/or singing karaoke more often

Problem is MOST bar owners do not/will not spend any extra to promote themselves - sad fact but true.  I've worked many bars that wouldn't even go the extra step to ask for a FREE banner advertising karaoke, customized from their beer distributors.  I would be willing to give 2:1 odds that 75-80% of the karaoke clubs do not even pay their publisher fees to ASCAP/BMI/SESAC.  I know a couple that I played didn't & absolutely would not allow me to do any outside advertising ie banners & print ads.  In house fliers only.  Why would they even bother going the 'extra' step to promote karaoke?  They expect the company/kj to bring in the people & without advertising, that just isn't going to happen.  Word of mouth only goes so far, but there has to be people to begin with to spread the word.



I have yet to see a coffee shop that had karaoke that worked out well or lasted more than 6 months.  It may for a little while, but unless they own their own equipment & the host is a family member - it's not cost effective (unless the coffee shop also has a beer/wine license).



We do raffle drawings at our shows alot, sometimes very nice prizes - doesn't necessarily make people stick around any longer than they planned on - especially if it's a week/work night for them.



To make karaoke work in any given area - you will actually need LESS karaoke shows in any given area - over saturation of an area will divide all your singers amongst the scattered out shows making less singers combined at one venue.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Most karaoke venues in So Fl are not strictly bars.  Many are Sports Bars and Grills and some are primarily restaurants.  Either type of location draws a family crowd.  Now, I don't know if this circumstance reflects the END OF KARAOKE or a new opportunity for it here?

Since many are family venues, some start as early as 6-7pm; most start between 8-9.  In most cases, the shows are 3 hours.  So I think a raffle held no later than 10pm (and most typically at 9pm) could entice people to hang around?  But I don't know?

Since so many venues are for families, I've seen families show up just so their kids (mostly teengagers) could sing.  And, at times, those kids show up with friends.  This, I know, has got to be good for karaoke!  

When I suggested that karaoke can be expanded by introducing it into new venues, I considered the possibility that by doing so the expansion could saturate the market.  But, maybe it wouldn't? I also considered the reality that if I kj wants to engage a new venue, it'll happen regardless of it's impact on the local market.  And it could work out that the new venue has a show during a day and time where the "pickin's are slim" for karaoke singers, or the venue is in a location that is more accessible for some than the other shows, or the KJ may inject the crowd with the Karaoke needle and create a whole new cadre of devotees at the new venue.  So the singers attending that new location maybe a net gain?

BTW The coffee shop (which did go out of business in Jan) has just reopened with new owners and now has karaoke 4 days a week.  I had a direct pipeline to what was going on before they re-opened two weeks ago, but never contacted them.  I already had an inkling that a straight karaoke show is not in my future.  I have  already thought about mixing Karaoke with DJ'ing and have been, in that regard, spending most of my time on a forum that has all types of DJ's plus karaoke! So, now there's even more to learn.

EDIT
But I really have much less enthusiasm for it and my wife has none.  Without her the show will not go on.  So, for now, if it's now over for us it's definitely on a big hold!

Family karaoke shows are fun, don't get me wrong - but they don't make alot of money for the venue.  My experineces only - I've ran several in the past.  The familes come out, will maybe buy dinner & some sodas (if beer is available the dads will often indulge in a couple).  After the dinners, they might buy a pitcher of soda for the rest of the night.  Most shows should start around 6, typically most people are ready to go by 9 as it's school nights - if the venue was smart then regular karaoke would begin at 9.  Some places (depending on their license statue) are required to have anyone under 21 off the premises no later than 10.  Most family shows (at least around here) do not last very long (our best family venue lasted about 8 months & it was very popular, but it was another club that refused outside ads - we even had a banner made for it & they made us take it down due to ASCAP threats), unless the karaoke goes right into regular karaoke afterward & nix the kids.



Problem with teens is they often come unsupervised & in groups - rarely buy anything but a pitcher of soda for the entire group & maybe an appetizer plate as teens don't usually have much money.  It's good for karaoke in general as it may get them interested for future clubs when they come of age.  Also unless your books are edited for content or you know exactly which songs are the 'naughty' bad word songs, the unsupervised teens DO know which songs have the language & WILL try to sing them with total disregard for younger ears.




Make sure you advertise the show as such ie karaoke AND dj.  Diehard singers will shy away from these venues just so you know, & you may end up doing more dj work than actual karaoke.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

That's an interesting statement.  Is it possible that ASCAP require the establishments to pay an extra licence fee over and above the fees paid for playing copyrighted music, due to the fact that karaoke displays the lyrics?  This may be an explanation for some of the cases you have mentioned whereby the owners are against advertising karaoke.  Maybe they do not have the extra licence required?  Of course this is just speculation, but IF it were an issue, how would one address it?  

Do any KJs actually pay licencing fees to publicly perform karaoke?  I know it is usually the venues' responsibility to pay the fees, but if the KJ had the licence, then there may be more venues willing to hire that KJ.  Just a thought, shoot me down if you feel it is silly!

Oh absolutely the clubs are required to pay the publisher fees.  They have to pay separate fees for live music, dj, karaoke (this actually falls into the live music but they have an addition charge for the sync rights which is the lyrics on the screen), tv broadcasts, radio broadcasts, DANCE floor, jukebox (often is covered by their lease agreement of the jukebox).



The ones i've experienced flat out told that was the reason.  I'm sure it's not an isolated incident, the publishing houses don't know you have karaoke & entertainment, they don't hound you.  Once they find out, they are on your butt.  How should it be addressed, the clubs need to pay the fees.  Not sure if the payment can be broken up into monthly/quarterly/bi-yearly installments & It can be a seemingly sizeable chunk - but actually broken down into 12 month period - it is usually LESS per month than one night of paying a karaoke host.



It's the clubs responsibility, I do not believe a kj/dj can pay the licensing fees themselves to play in clubs - I could be wrong but I don't believe it's allowed.  They are supposed to purchase for private shows they perform - but these are generally 1 night usage.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I have to disagree.  Karaoke is something you do, not something you go to hear.  If a non-singer shows up they are ususally there in spite of the karaoke and not becasue of it.  Because the music in entirely incidental and intended for the improvement of the singer, it is protected under the fair use clause of the copyright act.  ASCAP can kiss my donkey.

If I'm not mistaken and I could be becasue it's been a while since I looked at that portion of the copyright law, I believe the syncronazation rights are the responsiblity of the manus.  Besides which, if you're playing from a compluter the graphics and the music are not necessarily syncronized.

Yeah, that's kind of a stretch but I think it's a good one.  I mean, under statute what is the songwriter entitled to?  The amount of money after expenses which are directly attributed to his work being performed.  Since the music selection is arbitrary, he is entitled to nothing.

_________________
Okay, who took my pants?

Karaoke is something you do, but many non-singers do come because of it.  They may come in with a singer & only because of that singer.  I know people that come in just to sit & watch throughout the night.  They said they enjoy it, but would never get up there.
As far as the ascap statement - you don't have to pay a thing, it's the clubs resposibility, not the kj/dj.  So you don't have to worry about it, unless the club you are playing doesn't comply.  Then the worst that could happen to you is you are out of a job in that club.



Yeah a BIG stretch, they mean reproducing the lyrics visually.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

As far as the ascap statement - you don't have to pay a thing, it's the clubs resposibility, not the kj/dj.  So you don't have to worry about it, unless the club you are playing doesn't comply.  Then the worst that could happen to you is you are out of a job in that club.[/quote]

No, I meant that the bars are not required to pay.  

As far as the non-singers comming for karaoke.  I think if you went to that same bar on the same night of the week but at a time when they didn't have karaoke you would see they still have crowd.  Karaoke drives out as many non-singing folks as it brings in.

_________________
Okay, who took my pants?

Ah, but they are.  And shows have been shut down because of it - I had 2 of them shut down a few years back until they paid, wasn't me they went after, but the bar.  Here is the license info for what they are required to pay for with costs - BMI only.
http://www.bmi.com/forms/licensing/ede.pdf  



I don't see how if that crowd is coming in just because one of their friends wanted to come out to sing?  I've watched clubs that dropped karaoke & they also dropped their crowd (singers & non-singers) so people were coming out for karaoke.  Karaoke doesn't JUST attract singers - although it is the primary target, obviously.  Yes some people come out just because of the club - that will never change, but if you have 25 people coming out for karaoke & they each have 1 or 2 non-singing friends with them to help support their singing friends karaoke habit - drop karaoke, those singers no longer come in or bring in their non-singing friends.  Of course there will always be a small base of customers that will frequent an establishment whether or not there is entertainment.  And yes i've also watched karaoke drive out the non-singers that were there before I started - it actually works out well, it made room for the singing crowd (with their non-singing friends) to sit down.

_________________
LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I guess I have to consider myself fortunate. I have a group (15-20) of non-singers who specifically come to my shows because of the quality of my singers.  This is usually on Wed night.  Saturday nights are doing well too.  My singers are pretty diversified.  Country/Oldies/Classic rock.  Because of that, many dance.  More so than most karaoke places I have been to.  I believe my non-singers probably spend as much or more than the singers.

I'm into my 5th year here.  When I first started there weren't many places in town doing karaoke.  About 5.  Now there is about 20.  (population around 62,000)  The place I am at has two other people doing karaoke on Mon/Tues/ Thurs/ Fri/Sun./  Tues and Fri are karaoke and DJ combined.  One kj is mostly all country.  Our KJ/DJ seems to appeal to a real young crowd that I don't want any part of.  The club also has the most trouble on those nights.  My crowd is 21-70 MATURE for the most part and music well mixed.

The club also instituted a two drink minimum and a dress code late last year and this helped immensely.  

Last year was a slower year than previous.  However this year seems to be busier. It is still going strong here.   I get $185 plus $50 an hour past quiting. Plus drinks.  Due to full time job I quit Mon's late last year after having done three night a week for several years.   Average in this area is $75 - $150 per night.

The place is a sports bar and of course the recent college hoops helped bring in many.

Kelly

Lonman:  Music licensing agencies are private companys and have no greater standing in the law than you or I.  Sure they had the places shut down, hire the right lawyer and you can have a place shut down.  But did the bar fight it in the courts?  No.  The licensing agencys are not entitled to collect any more than their clients are entitled to collect.  What they offer is a convient package to buy a license but it's not required.  In no way is it required.  SAFJ US V ASCAP 1941   That's what I made of it anyway.

Isn't it logical that anything posted on the BMI website is going to be favorable to BMI's position?  They're in it for the money after all not truth, justice, and the American way.

_________________
Okay, who took my pants?

Lonman, I see on the form you linked to that to have karaoke 7 nights a week in a premises costs $0.50 per occupant.  So if an establishment had a maximum allowable occupancy of 200 persons, the ANNUAL fee for allowing karaoke would be $100.  That seems a small price to pay for a bar owner, especially if there would then be no problem in advertising that they have karaoke, which would most likely be beneficial to their business, even more so if they get the advert banner for free!

It seems there has to be more to it than meets the eye.